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150 watt "boots" for 160m

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juergen piezo

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m - the competitive edge

Hi Lee

Thats why FT2000's, Icom 7800s, 7700's and most of the 200 watt radios are selling so well to contesters and Dx'ers, even with a much poorer receiver than the K3.

The importance of a 200 watt radio for many who run older style high drive amps is a deal breaker. Who is going to rebuild their old 4-1000 amps just for a new radio when you need more drive? I certainly would not. I would go out and buy a 200 watt radio.

I know many DX'ers who are running FT1000D's who want to buy a K3 but wont because it does not have 200 watts of output. If 200 watts was not important I wonder why Yaesu keeps on producing radios with 200 watts of output power if they were not popular? When the new FT5000 is released its going to be one of the best selling radios because it may have a good receiver and it has 200 watts of output power. For this reason alone it will be a huge hit.

I hear many many big gun stations now running 200 watts just casual dx,ing because the results are impressive enough not to need the AMP. 200 watts makes you loud enough to the point where you dont need the amp. 200 watts on CW is perfect even on the low bands when you want to work a few stations before going off to work. Very convenient! I run a old worn out Drake L4b which puts out 800 watts. Many many times i have just turned down the drive to produce 200 watts and I have not had one station comment that my signal has dropped.

It looks like every new radio now will have 200 watts of output, and why not? High voltage FETs are cheap readily available, there is no excuse anymore for having 12 volt PA transistors in any high performance radio.

John

--- On Fri, 12/11/09, Lee Buller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Lee Buller <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m - the competitive edge
> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 12:04 PM
>
> This may be true and probably is...but as one other fellow
> said....1 DB is the difference between hear or not.
> Now...in contesting...that is points....or even a multipler
> which could be many more points per contest. So, I
> appreciate the comment here...is is the competitive edge
> that is driving this thread.
>
> Lee K0WA
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> From: Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m
> To: "elecraft" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 1:11 PM
>
> >From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories
> research (with
> huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars
> on the line)
> determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change
> discernment for
> most people?
>
> It's amazing how these slim changes hold on with hams and
> spend their
> money, when tons of research demonstrates the difference is
> not
> perceived. We FEEL GOOD running 150 instead of 100, running
> 1500
> instead of 1200. Never hear it on the other end.
>
> The REAL TX dB is between our ears, when to transmit, where
> to
> transmit and what to transmit. They who have the full 27 db
> allocation
> there can work the pileups QRP.
>
> 73, Guy.
> ______________________________________________________________
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Bill W4ZV

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

>From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with
huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line)
determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for
most people?

I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I believe it's incorrect. 1 dB "roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener". (see below)

"The decibel originates from methods used to quantify reductions in audio levels in telephone circuits. These losses were originally measured in units of Miles of Standard Cable (MSC), where 1 MSC corresponded to the loss of power over a 1 mile (approximately 1.6 km) length of standard telephone cable at a frequency of 5000 radians per second (795.8 Hz) and roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Standard telephone cable was defined as "a cable having uniformly distributed resistances of 88 ohms per loop mile and uniformly distributed shunt capacitance of .054 microfarad per mile" (approximately 19 gauge)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#History

73, Bill

AC7AC

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Ignacy

> 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W
> from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why
> they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands)
> + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be
> higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler!

Don't try it ... with 12W max available from the LPA, the pair
of 2SC2782 are already working very near maximum gain at 100 W
output when the other losses are considered.

The 2SC2782 shows 6.4 dB gain 1t 12.5V ... (12W drive, 80W Out).
Derating the gross output by 1 dB for circuit losses in the LPF
and T/R switch and 1 dB for linearity purposes, the net output
is right at the K3's 110 W maximum output.

If you really must have 200/250 W output, build an external
amplifier using two MRF-150 instead of the four used in
Motorola Engineering Bulletin 103 by Helge Granberg. See:
http://www.ab4oj.com/dl/eb104.pdf

In addition to the added power output, operating with a 48V
power supply provides improved IMD (-33 dB @ 150 W) and gain
(>20 dB).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ignacy
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 4:06 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m
>
>
>
> Those who believe in authority and that God punishes
> tinkerers, PLEASE SKIP this message.
>
> 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W
> from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why
> they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands)
> + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be
> higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler!
>
> So how to get 150W out of K3?
>
> 1. ALC would not let it. It needs to be fooled, e.g., by
> changing a divider in the SWR unit to indicate 100W when it is 150W.
>
> 2. At 150W the output impedance would not be 50 Ohm; it would
> be 35-40 Ohm with extra impedance added by LPF, which are
> designed for 50 Ohm. You need a manual tuner that you will
> tune for max power, not min SWR. If higher SWR causes power
> fold up, the SWR circuit needs to fooled again.
>
> 3. The radio would take more amps, say 30A, and the fuse may
> go out. If so, change the fuse or reduce the power so that
> the fuse is not tripping.
>
> Is it worth it, I am not sure. In contests, the extra power
> may make a real difference.
>
> Would Wayne and Eric approve? Never officially!
> Would K3 be ruined? I doubt it.
> Would I do it if I wanted to win a 160m contest in LP
> category and had no other alternatives? Perhaps on CW but
> never on SSB due to high IMD.
>
>
> Corresponding story
> Many years ago a power supply for IC-735 broke and the spare
> one was for 5A max. Tuned for min SWR the power was 5 W.
> Tuning for max power out generated 25W.
> Later, I tried the same trick with IC-7000. It was 5 W no
> matter what the tuning because of strong power folding under
> high SWR. Not sure what K3 would do. But there is a
> possibility that one can get 10-20W more just by tuning for
> max power out.
>
> Ignacy
>
>
>
> Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote:
> >
> > Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp
> or "pushing"
> > the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m?
> >
> > A kit or HB would be fine...
> >
> > 73,
> > Julius
> > n2wn
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153762.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Reinaldo Leandro

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Reinaldo Leandro

Reinaldo Leandro wrote:
> The
> Expert 1KA Italian amplifier with solid state finals needs only 20 watts
> drive for 1000 watts out. In fact, you must be very careful not to
overdrive
> those amplifiers
>

I can't find any reference to this amp after searching. Can you provide
a link? That'd provide 750W from a 15W K2....

73, Ross N4RP

--
FCC Section 97.313(a) "At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum
transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications."

Here is the link to the company:

http://www.radio-ham.eu/Expert1K-FA.htm

The amplifier is distributed in NA by Steppir: http://www.steppir.com/

It specify: - High power gain (16 dB)

A review was published in the September QST.

I have been using the amplifier for the last 12 months to my entire
satisfaction, in fact displacing the two other amps with 3CX800A7 tubes. It
occupies almost the same space as the K3 and switch two radios for a poor
guy SO2R.
I made a typo mistake stating 20 watts instead of 29 that is typically my
case. On the K3 for tuning purposes I limit the output when pressing tune to
20 watts.

73

Reinaldo, YV5AMH

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AC7AC

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Bill W4ZV

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote

Quite right Bill, in an audio laboratory or perhaps in a very quiet
telephone circuit.

But radio communications is different according to what I learned in school,
lo' these many years past. Over half a century ago most radio communications
engineers began using 3 dB (2:1 power ratio) as the minimum change in a
signal level that would normally be just discernable to the listener,
considering typical band noise and QSB. That was based in actual on-the-air
observations by a great many operators over time.

Ron I cited the reference for the 1 dB definition. Please provide the same for your 3 dB number. 160 meters is a very good audio laboratory IMHO. It quickly separates those who can hear from those who cannot.

73, Bill

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Reinaldo Leandro

> I can't find any reference to this amp after searching. Can
> you provide a link? That'd provide 750W from a 15W K2....

http://www.radio-ham.eu/

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Reinaldo Leandro
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:10 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m
>
>
>
>
> Reinaldo Leandro wrote:
> > The
> > Expert 1KA Italian amplifier with solid state finals needs only 20
> > watts drive for 1000 watts out. In fact, you must be very
> careful not
> > to
> overdrive
> > those amplifiers
> >
>
> I can't find any reference to this amp after searching. Can
> you provide
> a link? That'd provide 750W from a 15W K2....
>
> 73, Ross N4RP
>
> --
> FCC Section 97.313(a) "At all times, an amateur station must
> use the minimum
> transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications."
>
> Here is the link to the company:
>
> http://www.radio-ham.eu/Expert1K-FA.htm
>
> The amplifier is distributed in NA by Steppir:
> http://www.steppir.com/
>
> It specify: - High power gain (16 dB)
>
> A review was published in the September QST.
>
> I have been using the amplifier for the last 12 months to my entire
> satisfaction, in fact displacing the two other amps with
> 3CX800A7 tubes. It
> occupies almost the same space as the K3 and switch two
> radios for a poor
> guy SO2R.
> I made a typo mistake stating 20 watts instead of 29 that is
> typically my
> case. On the K3 for tuning purposes I limit the output when
> pressing tune to
> 20 watts.
>
>
>
> 73
>
> Reinaldo, YV5AMH
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Jim Dunstan

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Merv Schweigert

At 09:53 AM 12/11/2009 -1000, you wrote:
>A good article on the value of a DB is an old timer in QST I think it was,
>Station design for DX
>I guarantee you that if you improve your station by 1Db or more you will
>tell the difference, have done it and it works. A whole new layer of DX
>opens up for every DB you can find.
>I see comments all the time that lossy feedlines or matching or this and
>that
>only costs a couple DB and you cant hear that. Amen I dont hear you in
>the pile ups.

I bet the number of weak signal contacts have increased ... not because of
increased power or improved receivers ... but because of the online service
of QRZ.com hi hi

I wonder how many DB they add. Many stations know my name and qth before I
send it!

Jim, VE3CI

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Bob Maser

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Is it really necessary to continue this thread? My inbox is seeing entirely
too much drivel like this thread and others on this reflector.

Bob W6TR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Ignacy'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m

>
>> 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W
>> from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why
>> they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands)
>> + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be
>> higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler!
>
> Don't try it ... with 12W max available from the LPA, the pair
> of 2SC2782 are already working very near maximum gain at 100 W
> output when the other losses are considered.
>
> The 2SC2782 shows 6.4 dB gain 1t 12.5V ... (12W drive, 80W Out).
> Derating the gross output by 1 dB for circuit losses in the LPF
> and T/R switch and 1 dB for linearity purposes, the net output
> is right at the K3's 110 W maximum output.
>
> If you really must have 200/250 W output, build an external
> amplifier using two MRF-150 instead of the four used in
> Motorola Engineering Bulletin 103 by Helge Granberg. See:
> http://www.ab4oj.com/dl/eb104.pdf
>
> In addition to the added power output, operating with a 48V
> power supply provides improved IMD (-33 dB @ 150 W) and gain
> (>20 dB).
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ignacy
>> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 4:06 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m
>>
>>
>>
>> Those who believe in authority and that God punishes
>> tinkerers, PLEASE SKIP this message.
>>
>> 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W
>> from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why
>> they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands)
>> + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be
>> higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler!
>>
>> So how to get 150W out of K3?
>>
>> 1. ALC would not let it. It needs to be fooled, e.g., by
>> changing a divider in the SWR unit to indicate 100W when it is 150W.
>>
>> 2. At 150W the output impedance would not be 50 Ohm; it would
>> be 35-40 Ohm with extra impedance added by LPF, which are
>> designed for 50 Ohm. You need a manual tuner that you will
>> tune for max power, not min SWR. If higher SWR causes power
>> fold up, the SWR circuit needs to fooled again.
>>
>> 3. The radio would take more amps, say 30A, and the fuse may
>> go out. If so, change the fuse or reduce the power so that
>> the fuse is not tripping.
>>
>> Is it worth it, I am not sure. In contests, the extra power
>> may make a real difference.
>>
>> Would Wayne and Eric approve? Never officially!
>> Would K3 be ruined? I doubt it.
>> Would I do it if I wanted to win a 160m contest in LP
>> category and had no other alternatives? Perhaps on CW but
>> never on SSB due to high IMD.
>>
>>
>> Corresponding story
>> Many years ago a power supply for IC-735 broke and the spare
>> one was for 5A max. Tuned for min SWR the power was 5 W.
>> Tuning for max power out generated 25W.
>> Later, I tried the same trick with IC-7000. It was 5 W no
>> matter what the tuning because of strong power folding under
>> high SWR. Not sure what K3 would do. But there is a
>> possibility that one can get 10-20W more just by tuning for
>> max power out.
>>
>> Ignacy
>>
>>
>>
>> Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote:
>> >
>> > Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp
>> or "pushing"
>> > the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m?
>> >
>> > A kit or HB would be fine...
>> >
>> > 73,
>> > Julius
>> > n2wn
>> >
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153762.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m [END of thread]

Administrator

Let's end this thread. :-)

73,
Eric
Elecraft Moderator

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Jim Dunstan

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Bob Maser

At 03:55 PM 12/11/2009 -0700, you wrote:
>Is it really necessary to continue this thread? My inbox is seeing entirely
>too much drivel like this thread and others on this reflector.
>
>Bob W6TR

Hi

I think this is one of the more interesting threads .... it is certainly on
a par with (with due respect) "K3 Diversity use with QRN" or "ethernet to
serial converter" hi hi Besides I delete 90% of the postings and keep
those of particular interest to me for future reference.... goes fast
hi. I believe it goes to the heart of some basic Amateur Radio
philosophies ... the philosophies of power, competition, and
achievement. Certainly not drivel. Personally I am a rag chewer and radio
experimenter... I guess I don't have that competitive gene hi hi I have an
academic interest in getting the most out of the least ... so I enjoy the
thread as far as technical suggestions on how to eek out additional power
... but no interest in breaking into the pileup .... that for me is an
academic interest ...(I usually don't operate on week-ends as there might
be a contest hi hi) although I do receive satisfaction in completing a
weak signal contact.

I notice that the boots were for 160m .... and I think I know why. Most
operators use some sort of vertical antenna which by definition will have a
high level of background noise. the problem with weak signal operation on
160m is this background noise. Even if the signal could be raised 3 db
over the noise .... you will have such a headache you won't last too long
hi hi. The answer is to use a separate receive antenna ....not to raise
the received signal strength ... but to increase the ratio of signal to
noise. Completing a QSO is a 2 way street. I believe the radio should
have provision for a receive only antenna as well as noise reduction circuits.

I believe I have improved my 160m weak signal operations more through
improving my station receiving capabilities than increasing
power. Certainly the efforts bring greater rewards. Just as a sidelight
... I always enjoyed 160m from way back when I used to call in to an early
morning net ... shortly after milking time .... almost all the participants
were farmers. Everyone operated AM back then hi hi ... and i used a
Heathkit DX-100 AM transmitter and a military BC348 ? receiver. The
equipment has changed but the fun remains.

Jim, VE3CI

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Julius Fazekas n2wn

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by n9adg

Hi Brian,

Was that in QEX? I seem to recall an article about this in the past couple of years. You are right all I wish to use it for is CW.

I know at least a few of the responders understand what I am trying to do and why. LP categories in 160m contests allow power levels to 150 watts. Most of the time 150 watts would buy one nothing, but it is worth having just a touch more umph if the conditions are marginal on the other end. I can't squeeze anything more significant out of my Tx antenna, if I was lucky maybe 1/2 db... maybe.

something under $300 in the way of a simple amp IS worth trying and may have been enough to have added 3 multipliers during ARRL160 because those guys couldn't quite pull me out. There's no downside to trying it.

Thanks for all the thoughtful answers. Don't think I'll mess with the K3 PA and I don't want to move into the HP category :o)

73,
Julius
n2wn

Brian Moran wrote

On 160, you could try a class-E amplifier; you're probably not going to use anything but CW.

--- On Fri, 12/11/09, Edward Dickinson, III <softblue@windstream.net> wrote:

> From: Edward Dickinson, III <softblue@windstream.net>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:55 AM
>
> I am reminded of the recent sale item from Elecraft.
> The 2010 ARRL Handbook
> is to have a 250 Watt HF amp design in it. One ought
> to be able to drop the
> K3 output appropriately to drive it to 150 Watts.
>
>
> 73,
>
> Dick - KA5KKT
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
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Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html

Tennessee QSO Party
http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366
Elecraft K3/100

rfenabled

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Julius Fazekas n2wn

Me too, me too, me too...

More competition...

Dang..(:-))

Gary
VK4FD
Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra

-----Original Message-----
From: Julius Fazekas n2wn <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:14:05
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m

Dang!
Competition ;o)

Craig D. Smith wrote:

>
> I want one too !!!!
>
> ... Craig AC0DS
>
> <> Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or "pushing"
> the K3
> <> PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>
>

-----
Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html

Tennessee QSO Party
http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2/100 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366
Elecraft K3 #1875
--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4152136.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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rfenabled

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Julius Fazekas n2wn

Duncan,

Yep, I would be instantly poor...again...(:-))

Gary
VK4FD
------Original Message------
From: Duncan Carter
Sender: [hidden email]
To: Merv Schweigert
Cc: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m
Sent: Dec 12, 2009 6:34 AM

I'd prefer to see the long delayed Elecraft 500 to 1000 watt amplifiers
that have been delayed, apparently because of the intense development of
the K3 which hopefully is nearing an end. An amplifier with QSK, an
internal tuner comparable to the K3 tuner, and integrated with the K3
with Elecraft's quality and attention to detail would cause money to
leap straight from my bank account's to Elecraft's bank account.

73, Dunc, W5DC

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Jim Brown-10

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:58:05 -0800 (PST), Bill W4ZV wrote:

>I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I
>believe it's incorrect. 1 dB "roughly matched the smallest attenuation
>detectable to an average listener".

Yes. I'm a member of the Acoustical Society and work in pro audio, so I've
had to learn a LOT about these things. BUT -- that 1 dB that's the smallest
change noticable by the average listener for sounds NOT in the presence of
noise or other interfering signals. Add some noise that's close in level to
the desired signal (or even stronger than the desired signal), and a 1 dB
change becomes more obvious. For sounds with NO interfering noise, it takes
a change of nearly 10 dB to be perceived as twice (or half) as loud.

What really matters in communications circuits is signal to noise ratio.
The poorer the signal to noise ratio, a dB or two becomes more important.

John said:

>Many many times i have just turned down the drive to produce 200 watts and
>I have not had one station comment that my signal has dropped.

That's because of a combination of two factors 1) Your signal was likely
well above the noise 2) the change in LOUDNESS of your signal was
eliminated by the AGC in the other guy's RX.

I'm a member of a very competitive contest club. Our guys will do a lot to
maximize their signals and their RX. I use RG11 to feed dipoles to save a
dB of loss. I use hard line for the long run to my SteppIR to save 2 dB. I
work to get antennas up a bit higher to get me over the ridge to the east,
boosting my signal another dB or two. I have Beverages to hear a bit
better. All of these little improvements combine to let me hear about 6dB
better and transmit 2- 3dB louder. I recently put up a tower and beam,
giving me about 6dB on the higher bands. Each of these changes has
contributed a bit, and over tiem, my QSO rates have improved a lot.

73,

Jim K9YC

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Julius Fazekas n2wn

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by rfenabled

Gary...

not competition, new multiplier and all time new DXCC ;o)

Looks like, at least, two inexpensive options to try...

73,
Julius

Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html
http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en

Tennessee QSO Party
http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2/100 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366
Elecraft K3/100 #1875

--- On Fri, 12/11/09, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m
> To: "Julius Fazekas n2wn" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 7:29 PM
> Me too, me too, me too...
>
> More competition...
>
> Dang..(:-))
>
> Gary
> VK4FD
> Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julius Fazekas n2wn <[hidden email]>
> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:14:05
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt
> "boots" for 160m
>
>
> Dang!
> Competition ;o)
>
>
> Craig D. Smith wrote:
> >
> > I want one too !!!!
> >
> >
> ... Craig AC0DS
> >
> > <> Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a
> solid state amp or "pushing"
> > the K3
> > <> PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m?
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net

> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

> >
> >
>
>
> -----
> Julius Fazekas
> N2WN
>
> Tennessee Contest Group
> http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html

>
> Tennessee QSO Party
> http://www.tnqp.org/

>
> Elecraft K2/100 #4455
> Elecraft K3/100 #366
> Elecraft K3 #1875
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4152136.html

> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net

> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

>
______________________________________________________________
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Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html

Tennessee QSO Party
http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366
Elecraft K3/100

Dan in Florida

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by Bob Maser

I found it interesting.
Dan- W4TQ
...............................................
Is it really necessary to continue this thread? My inbox is seeing entirely
too much drivel like this thread and others on this reflector.

Bob W6TR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Ignacy'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m

>
>> 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W
>> from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why
>> they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands)
>> + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be
>> higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler!

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rfenabled

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

Well I ain't never....Grin

Me too, me too, me too

Gary
Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra

-----Original Message-----
From: "Dan" <[hidden email]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:20:53
To: Bob Maser<[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m

I found it interesting.
Dan- W4TQ
...............................................
Is it really necessary to continue this thread? My inbox is seeing entirely
too much drivel like this thread and others on this reflector.

Bob W6TR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Ignacy'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m

>
>> 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W
>> from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why
>> they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands)
>> + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be
>> higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler!

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Bill K9YEQ

Re: 150 watt "boots" for 160m

In reply to this post by AC7AC

In technical school after being a HAM for over 9 years I learned that it took 10Db change in level to perceive a doubling of audible signal level,,, 3 db hard to detect. I worked on modems during the Vietnam at a site for 1 year after tech school and all our old equipment was lab quality. I did this all day long for 6 days a week for a year. I know and heard what I write.

Bill
K9YEQ
K2-#35 (2 more), KX1-#35, K3, TS2000, IC7000, etc.

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:16:54 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt "boots" for 160m
>
> Quite right Bill, in an audio laboratory or perhaps in a very quiet
> telephone circuit.
>
> But radio communications is different according to what I learned in school,
> lo' these many years past. Over half a century ago most radio communications
> engineers began using 3 dB (2:1 power ratio) as the minimum change in a
> signal level that would normally be just discernable to the listener,
> considering typical band noise and QSB. That was based in actual on-the-air
> observations by a great many operators over time.
>
> When considering changing my power level, I never consider it worthwhile to
> change less than 3 dB and more typically 6 to 10 dB as the minimum worth
> bothering with (e.g. shifting from a K2/10 at 10-15 watts CW to a K2/100 was
> a just worthwhile shift).
>
> When I was much younger and more "innocent" I used to scramble for each
> little watt, exulting in running 30 watts instead of 20 watts from a 6L6,
> for example, or tweaking my 6146 rig to run 90 instead of 75 watts and
> feeling sure that made a big difference. It sure seemed to produce more
> results from calls. But, looking back over logs over time, it was clearly an
> illusion..
>
> That's when I acquired the sign that still hangs over my desk to remind me
> that "Believing is Seeing".
>
> So I don't argue with people who want to make what is a quantifiable silly
> choice. Instead I say, "If you want to do it and you believe it's worth it,
> do it."
>
> I'm no different. After all, we humans make most of our choices based on
> emotion and then we use rational logic to justify the choice.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with
> huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line)
> determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for
> most people?
>
> I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I
> believe it's incorrect. 1 dB "roughly matched the smallest attenuation
> detectable to an average listener". (see below)
>
> "The decibel originates from methods used to quantify reductions in audio
> levels in telephone circuits. These losses were originally measured in units
> of Miles of Standard Cable (MSC), where 1 MSC corresponded to the loss of
> power over a 1 mile (approximately 1.6 km) length of standard telephone
> cable at a frequency of 5000 radians per second (795.8 Hz) and roughly
> matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Standard
> telephone cable was defined as "a cable having uniformly distributed
> resistances of 88 ohms per loop mile and uniformly distributed shunt
> capacitance of .054 microfarad per mile" (approximately 19 gauge)."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#History
>
> 73, Bill
>
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