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A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

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Richard-6

A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would each outshine the other?

Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.

Richard Kunc ~ W4KBX
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Don Wilhelm-5

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Richard and all,

I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.

His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
operation. Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.

He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
excellent. He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".

I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
to be a point of interest to some.

I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
experiences.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would each outshine the other?
>
> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
>
>

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wa6vab

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Like the Old Saying……
If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
Good Luck Hunting the DX……

Ray WA6VAB K3

From: Don Wilhelm
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
To: Richard; Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Richard and all,

I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.

His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
operation. Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.

He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
excellent. He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".

I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
to be a point of interest to some.

I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
experiences.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would each outshine the other?
>
> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
>
>

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VE3NR

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Here is the $ 64.000 question:

Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?

Bert VE3NR

On 2021-06-08 19:52, Ray wrote:

>
> Like the Old Saying……
> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
>
> Ray WA6VAB K3
>
>
> From: Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
> To: Richard; Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
>
> Richard and all,
>
> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
> signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.
>
> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
> operation. Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
>
> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
> excellent. He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
>
> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
> to be a point of interest to some.
>
> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
> experiences.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
>> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would each outshine the other?
>>
>> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
>>
>>
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NJ8M

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

In reply to this post by wa6vab

I went to a radio store to see what all the hubbub was about the FTDX10. I
came prepared to test the radio. After having downloaded the manual and
reading it through 3 or 4 times getting the menus, setting, knobs,
filtering, general settings well in my head, I went to the store and turned
one on for about 2 solid hours. I was so upset with my K3S/P3 costing over
6K$ being shown up by a $1700 radio. Granted it does not have all the bells
and whistles that the Elecraft had but for a great receiver, it blows the
K3 away with band noise, and electrical noise mitigation. I found the
receiver to be much quieter over all and with no harsh roar constantly as
the K3S has. The Pan Adaptor was way easier to use and adjustment to 5khz
wide was a S&P dream to operate with an adjustable notch and contour
peaking or nulling functions continuously variable for best reception.

I went home and got my money back from Elecraft, $9879, they had it for
over a year, and once it was in my account I ordered sight unseen and
untested both FTDX101MP and D models. The MP came first. I had the D sent
to the factory to install the extra 300hz cw filter. Putting the K3S/P3 on
an A/B switch with the MP, the difference was astounding. I immediately
listed the K3S/P3 and sold it within an hour. It went out the next morning
to UPS and I have had no regrets. Both my son, NS0R, and I operated the
Yaesu's in multiple contests. This was the first time in my life that we
could hear stations that we could not work. Having the Yaesus was an
absolute game changer for me. The VC tune is the money. This last WPX cw we
increased our score by a million because we could hear stations that the K3
was deaf to. The Band noise and intermittent electrical noise in the city
was easily managed by the FTDX101MP. The K3S could not even come close to
this performance. Simply put the FTDX10 and the FTDX101MP/D just have
better receivers, due to the noise mitigation, lower internal noise, easier
to listen to for long periods, and features like the adjustable notch and
contour controls coupled with the VC tune and remarkable DSP, width and IF
shift controls...it is just not a little bit better, it is atleast a
magnitude better. Running SO2R on a city lot with cramped antenna space is
not a problem. They are clean and no phase noise/composite noise is
detected on transmit in the other radio on receive. I have them side by
side. I have given 2 or 3 presentations on Zoom to explain how I use the
rig and the great noise mitigation that It can do. When you push a button
or turn a knob on these radios, something happens. They are not there for
display.

FTDX101MP and D---The best radios I have ever owned or operated.

73, Morgan NJ8M

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 6:55 PM Ray <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Like the Old Saying……
> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
>
> Ray WA6VAB K3
>
>
> From: Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
> To: Richard; Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
>
> Richard and all,
>
> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
> signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.
>
> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
> operation. Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
>
> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
> excellent. He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
>
> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
> to be a point of interest to some.
>
> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
> experiences.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
> > Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and
> an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where
> would each outshine the other?
> >
> > Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

In reply to this post by VE3NR

On 6/8/2021 4:58 PM, Bert wrote:
> Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
> everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?

I have seen reports that the 7300 is a dog at FD

73, Jim K9YC
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VE3NR

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

FD is only once a year!! ;-))
Bert VE3NR

On 2021-06-08 20:32, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 6/8/2021 4:58 PM, Bert wrote:
>> Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
>> everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?
>
> I have seen reports that the 7300 is a dog at FD
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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NJ8M

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

You are describing a pure ADC front in radio...7300,7610 and now K4. The K4
might be better. The K3 is NOT an ADC front end and neither is the FTDX10
or the FTDX101 or the Kenwood 890. I have not had a 6600M at a FD site. But
if I did, the antennas separating them would be the max allowable distance
apart.

73, Morgan NJ8M

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 7:41 PM Bert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> FD is only once a year!! ;-))
> Bert VE3NR
>
>
>
> On 2021-06-08 20:32, Jim Brown wrote:
> > On 6/8/2021 4:58 PM, Bert wrote:
> >> Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
> >> everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?
> >
> > I have seen reports that the 7300 is a dog at FD
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> >
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>
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Macy monkeys

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

In reply to this post by VE3NR

Yes

John K7FD

> On Jun 8, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Bert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Here is the $ 64.000 question:
>
> Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
> everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?
>
> Bert VE3NR
>
>
>
>> On 2021-06-08 19:52, Ray wrote:
>>
>> Like the Old Saying……
>> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
>> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
>> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
>>
>> Ray WA6VAB K3
>>
>>
>> From: Don Wilhelm
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
>> To: Richard; Elecraft
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
>>
>> Richard and all,
>>
>> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
>> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
>> signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.
>>
>> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
>> operation. Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
>> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
>>
>> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
>> excellent. He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
>> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
>>
>> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
>> to be a point of interest to some.
>>
>> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
>> experiences.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>
>>> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
>>> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would each outshine the other?
>>>
>>> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Barry Simpson

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

In reply to this post by VE3NR

Hi Phil

Buying the IC-7300 was definitely a descent 😊.

Barry VK2BJ

On Wed, 9 Jun 2021 at 10:12, Phil Hystad via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I answered that question two years ago and it cost me about $200.
>
> I bought a 7300 because I thought it would be a descent backup to my
> K-line (K3). Two months after I bought it, I sold it for a net $200 loss.
>
> I did the test that Don outlines in his message quoted below. I searched
> for weak CW stations on my K3 and then switched the antenna over to the
> IC-7300 to see if I could pick them up. Not a a precise experiment but I
> would
> say about half of the weak signals I could hear enough to copy on my K3
> were
> not copyable on the IC-7300 and a few of them were not even making an
> appearance. This test was all done with my 20-meter dipole near the
> resonant
> point of the antenna so no tuners were involved for either radio.
>
> But, that was not the kill-shot for the 7300. The relay clicks on
> break-in keying
> drove me crazy.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
> > On Jun 8, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Bert <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Here is the $ 64.000 question:
> >
> > Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
> > everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?
> >
> > Bert VE3NR
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2021-06-08 19:52, Ray wrote:
> >>
> >> Like the Old Saying……
> >> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
> >> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
> >> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
> >>
> >> Ray WA6VAB K3
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Don Wilhelm
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
> >> To: Richard; Elecraft
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
> >>
> >> Richard and all,
> >>
> >> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
> >> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
> >> signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the
> IC-7300.
> >>
> >> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
> >> operation. Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
> >> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
> >>
> >> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
> >> excellent. He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
> >> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
> >>
> >> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
> >> to be a point of interest to some.
> >>
> >> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
> >> experiences.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >>
> >> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
> >>> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and
> an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where
> would each outshine the other?
> >>>
> >>> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
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> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
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> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
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> >
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Bob Wilson, N6TV

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

In reply to this post by Richard-6

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 4:01 PM Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an
> FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would
> each outshine the other?
>
> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.

Neither the KPA500 nor the KAT500 can auto-track the frequency any Icom rig
by itself. Instead, go for the KPA1500 with its built-in tuner, which
auto-tracks *all* Icom rigs via it's 2-wire REMOTE (CI-V) connector quite
perfectly.

The KPA500 XCVR serial port and KAT500 PC DATA port are completely
compatible with Kenwood's serial ports for auto-track, but the KPA500 XCVR
interface is NOT compatible with Yaesu rigs, because Yaesu's frequency
commands don't match the Kenwood standard properly (not enough leading
zeroes, something Elecraft may be able to handle some day with a firmware
update to both the KAT500 and KPA500).

The KPA1500, on the other hand, WILL auto-track any modern Yaesu rig via
serial port just fine. My Serial Box <https://bit.ly/S-BOX> can help with
the interconnections to both using stock molded cables, so no homebrew or
expensive custom cables are needed.

Though you can wire the LINEAR connector of a Yaesu rig to a KPA500 AUX
connector, and it will auto-track band changes perfectly, the KAT500 will
not track the VFO frequency, so it's only half of what you requested.

So in sum, if you're looking at any Icom or Yaesu rig, consider the KPA1500
instead of the KPA500/KAT500 combo, or wait for new firmware to support
Yaesu's frequency format.

Icom support in the KAT500/KPA500 is not possible, only the KPA1500 has the
hardware.

Another option to consider is N4PY's Pegasus Plus
<http://www.n4py.com/pegasus-plus.html> software, which will translate Icom
and Yaesu frequency data to Kenwood format for the KPA500 and KAT500. The
S-BOX-USB can be configured as a null-modem cable interface to connect
N4PY's software to both the KPA500 and KAT500 using a single USB port on
the PC.

73,
Bob, N6TV
https://bit.ly/S-BOX
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hb9cvq

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

In reply to this post by NJ8M

Yes, I agree, I also prefer the FTDX101MP (own it 1 + year/CW, SSB) and have 3 K3S/P3 Systems…..but...no such thing as perfect…here is my story from my qrz.com blog

I now use and recommend ( e.g. DSP even Better) the YAESU May 2021 SW/FW update now.

I own a YAESU FTDX101MP ( SW/FW upgrade April 2020 ) since 1 Year and am very impressed by the high performance (I do SSB , also QRO CW; ragchewing/ DXing/ Contesting). This unit YAESU is partly even better than Tx / RX K3S, but not for QSK (relays chattering) .

I would like to bring the following, unexpected findings -should get fixed a.s.a.p.- to your attention (or did I overlook something?):

1. Voice Messages (e.g. CQ) can be recorded e.g. in SSB and CW. Bacon Mode (automatic , interval repeat) is only possible in CW not in SSB , very impractical.
2. Incoming signals like QSOs cannot be recorded by the TRX directly.
3. The TX PWR Meter should read PEP not average.
4. 60m (5MHz) there is no sharp preselector available (VC Tune). It is also not possible to activate VC Tune on 12m, 6m.
5. RX: IPO to AMP1 to AMP2 is about a 10dB difference each step (20dB range) , Input RX Attenuator is correct with -6, -12, -18 dB
6. S-Meter Calibration 160m to 6m is not always real as (IARU Definition) S9=-73dBm or 50uV/50Ohm. Yes, below S9 there are -3dB steps per S-Unit, above S9 meter indication is correct as shown
7. The band scope needs different sensitivity settings for viewing RX and own TX signals. If optimized for RX, you will see a completly distorted/ overloading signal in TX mode !

* 160m to 40m: real S9 (AMP1) is more like S 7.5 on the meter, with IPO more like S 4.5 e.g. on 40m
* 20 to 6m: real S9 is about S9 (AMP1) on the meter
* Knowing about this I can live with it, easily. On the low bands the S-Meter is not very generous.

A much more critical issue for some RX denoising applications is …

Tricky Antenna port selection , accessibility to Input RX1 and RX2 individually not possible (diversity or local QRM reduction by phasing?)

* There are 3 Ant. Ports.
* There is a RX1 out and RX2 out port, obviously only , individually selectable via menu
* Normal Configuration: T1 is TX and RX Port-> measuring the RX signal attenuation between T1 (AMP1 , ATT 0dB, VC Tune on) and e.g. RX1 out:

It varies, from 160 to 30m…15m from -6db/-9dB, on 12m it is suddenly +5dB, on 10m there is 0dB. On the low bands there is a considerable signal loss!

* Special RX Ant. Configuration: port One (#3) can be configured e.g. as RX on 3 only , while T1 is only transmit
* Configuration R3 (RX only: AMP1 , ATT 0dB, VC Tune on), T1 TX only. Measuring the RX signal attenuation now between RX only import and e.g. RX1 out: -10 dB on 160m, 80m -3dB, 60/40/30/20m -5dB, 17m -7dB, 12m +6dB, 10m +2dB.

The mostly relatively sharp frequency band selection (VC Tune) is clearly visible.

* Problem/Dilemma with using an external RX phasing/ QRM Eliminator, there is now a missing function of routing the Main (TX) /RX Ant 1 Signal safely through to an RX outport (as in K3S). In FTDX101MP it is either RX all on Ant 1 or all RX on R3.
* The phasing unit NCC1 with me has 2 channels: A noisy main Antenna, B noise local noise pick-up by a 1m diameter magnetic broadband loop. The S/N improved, vector combined output port signal must go to the Transceiver RX input port ( e.g. R3).
* Therefore the safe routing through of the main antenna (only Rx function ) is badly missed here.
* Envisioned external solution: Order/Installation of a separate, “Modular Receive Antenna Interface for Transceivers DXE-RTR-2” in front of the FTDX1001MP

I also own a Elecraft K3S and did some EMI (Electromag. Interference) coupling experiment into the power supply (PS) port. This is another, aside from antenna port, important EMI port and potentially causing uncontrolled RX coupling. The effect is often overlooked. Conducted EMI -on the PS- of TRX ( Transceiver) results in backdoor coupling , if e.g. using external 12V (13.8V DC) external PS in a station.

Investigation: Elecraft K3S ( minus on chassis ground and grounded by terminal (stud) to station ground => risk of loop formation with PE protective earth):

Lab-Testing in a well-controlled coupling experiment (TRX Antenna terminated with DL 50 Ohm , 12V Battery operated-20 dB choked off, EMI injected capacitively into TRX plus, minus on GND )

* one can show S3 on the S-Meter on 80m for already some 20mVpp CM voltage ( 12V DC plus/minus input of TRX).
* In the same test on 20m it takes just 30mVpp to reach S8

We have seen over 100mVpp induced on the 13.8V DC supply voltage in a K3S experiment 28MHz, 60W into Dummy Load 50Ohm.

Using a MDS-clamp (EMC Test 30M-1GHz, --CISPR 16-1-3--, applicable to only on cable connection on K3S) test on the DC supply line resulted in 76dBpW ( about 40 micro Watt @28 MHz).

This test is a "simple system configuration substitute" for a radiated test. An anechoic chamber was not available.

From this one can estimate the 100W PA shielding/filtering efficiency to be about 62 dB [10xlg(60W/40uW)]. This is not unusual, rather reasonable and ok.

All this can easily be field/stray effect induced in a complex station wiring-situation.

If you have only one, individual, linear power supply (with earth-minus-GND on PE) backdoor coupling may get even more critical.

High permeability CM (Common Mode) ferrite chokes (in 13.8V DC plus/minus) will easily saturate. Plus-amp and minus-amp will be different, because the GND (GND K3/ Earth PE ) will carry the return current difference!

The worst configuration is to use one common Power-Supply-BUS for several TRX (daisy chaining, forming ground coupling loops ). TRX with an internal PS ( mains operated TRX) are typically better decoupled, causing less RX EMI backdoor input.

Hopefully you have now a better understanding for trying to de-noise your station!

------------------------------------------

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> Im Auftrag von Morgan Bailey
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 9. Juni 2021 02:27
An: Ray <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

I went to a radio store to see what all the hubbub was about the FTDX10. I came prepared to test the radio. After having downloaded the manual and reading it through 3 or 4 times getting the menus, setting, knobs, filtering, general settings well in my head, I went to the store and turned one on for about 2 solid hours. I was so upset with my K3S/P3 costing over 6K$ being shown up by a $1700 radio. Granted it does not have all the bells and whistles that the Elecraft had but for a great receiver, it blows the

K3 away with band noise, and electrical noise mitigation. I found the receiver to be much quieter over all and with no harsh roar constantly as the K3S has. The Pan Adaptor was way easier to use and adjustment to 5khz wide was a S&P dream to operate with an adjustable notch and contour peaking or nulling functions continuously variable for best reception.

I went home and got my money back from Elecraft, $9879, they had it for over a year, and once it was in my account I ordered sight unseen and untested both FTDX101MP and D models. The MP came first. I had the D sent to the factory to install the extra 300hz cw filter. Putting the K3S/P3 on an A/B switch with the MP, the difference was astounding. I immediately listed the K3S/P3 and sold it within an hour. It went out the next morning to UPS and I have had no regrets. Both my son, NS0R, and I operated the Yaesu's in multiple contests. This was the first time in my life that we could hear stations that we could not work. Having the Yaesus was an absolute game changer for me. The VC tune is the money. This last WPX cw we increased our score by a million because we could hear stations that the K3 was deaf to. The Band noise and intermittent electrical noise in the city was easily managed by the FTDX101MP. The K3S could not even come close to this performance. Simply put the FTDX10 and the FTDX101MP/D just have better receivers, due to the noise mitigation, lower internal noise, easier to listen to for long periods, and features like the adjustable notch and contour controls coupled with the VC tune and remarkable DSP, width and IF shift controls...it is just not a little bit better, it is atleast a magnitude better. Running SO2R on a city lot with cramped antenna space is not a problem. They are clean and no phase noise/composite noise is detected on transmit in the other radio on receive. I have them side by side. I have given 2 or 3 presentations on Zoom to explain how I use the rig and the great noise mitigation that It can do. When you push a button or turn a knob on these radios, something happens. They are not there for display.

FTDX101MP and D---The best radios I have ever owned or operated.

73, Morgan NJ8M

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 6:55 PM Ray < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> wrote:

>

>

> Like the Old Saying……

> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….

> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.

> Good Luck Hunting the DX……

>

> Ray WA6VAB K3

>

>

> From: Don Wilhelm

> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM

> To: Richard; Elecraft

> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

>

> Richard and all,

>

> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.

> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many

> weak signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.

>

> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"

> operation. Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.

> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.

>

> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it

> excellent. He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work

> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".

>

> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought

> it to be a point of interest to some.

>

> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air

> experiences.

>

> 73,

> Don W3FPR

>

>

> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:

> > Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300

> > and

> an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and

> where would each outshine the other?

> >

> > Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.

> >

> >

>

> ______________________________________________________________

> Elecraft mailing list

> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

> Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]

>

> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email

> list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to

> <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

>

> ______________________________________________________________

> Elecraft mailing list

> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

> Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]

>

> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email

> list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to

> <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________

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Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Message delivered to [hidden email]

wa6vab

Re: A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

To: HB9CVQ……. Sir.
Thanks for the Real Information on these Radio’s, will apply.
WA6VAB Ray K3

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 4:52 AM
To: 'Morgan Bailey'; 'Ray'
Cc: 'Elecraft'
Subject: AW: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Yes, I agree, I also prefer the FTDX101MP (own it 1 + year/CW, SSB) and have 3 K3S/P3 Systems…..but...no such thing as perfect…here is my story from my qrz.com blog
I now use and recommend ( e.g. DSP even Better) the YAESU May 2021 SW/FW update now.

I own a YAESU FTDX101MP ( SW/FW upgrade April 2020 ) since 1 Year and am very impressed by the high performance (I do SSB , also QRO CW; ragchewing/ DXing/ Contesting). This unit YAESU is partly even better than Tx / RX K3S, but not for QSK (relays chattering) .
I would like to bring the following, unexpected findings -should get fixed a.s.a.p.- to your attention (or did I overlook something?):
1. Voice Messages (e.g. CQ) can be recorded e.g. in SSB and CW. Bacon Mode (automatic , interval repeat) is only possible in CW not in SSB , very impractical.
2. Incoming signals like QSOs cannot be recorded by the TRX directly.
3. The TX PWR Meter should read PEP not average.
4. 60m (5MHz) there is no sharp preselector available (VC Tune). It is also not possible to activate VC Tune on 12m, 6m.
5. RX: IPO to AMP1 to AMP2 is about a 10dB difference each step (20dB range) , Input RX Attenuator is correct with -6, -12, -18 dB
6. S-Meter Calibration 160m to 6m is not always real as (IARU Definition) S9=-73dBm or 50uV/50Ohm. Yes, below S9 there are -3dB steps per S-Unit, above S9 meter indication is correct as shown
7. The band scope needs different sensitivity settings for viewing RX and own TX signals. If optimized for RX, you will see a completly distorted/ overloading signal in TX mode !

• 160m to 40m: real S9 (AMP1) is more like S 7.5 on the meter, with IPO more like S 4.5 e.g. on 40m
• 20 to 6m: real S9 is about S9 (AMP1) on the meter
• Knowing about this I can live with it, easily. On the low bands the S-Meter is not very generous.
A much more critical issue for some RX denoising applications is …
Tricky Antenna port selection , accessibility to Input RX1 and RX2 individually not possible (diversity or local QRM reduction by phasing?)
• There are 3 Ant. Ports.
• There is a RX1 out and RX2 out port, obviously only , individually selectable via menu
• Normal Configuration: T1 is TX and RX Port-> measuring the RX signal attenuation between T1 (AMP1 , ATT 0dB, VC Tune on) and e.g. RX1 out:
It varies, from 160 to 30m…15m from -6db/-9dB, on 12m it is suddenly +5dB, on 10m there is 0dB. On the low bands there is a considerable signal loss!
• Special RX Ant. Configuration: port One (#3) can be configured e.g. as RX on 3 only , while T1 is only transmit
• Configuration R3 (RX only: AMP1 , ATT 0dB, VC Tune on), T1 TX only. Measuring the RX signal attenuation now between RX only import and e.g. RX1 out: -10 dB on 160m, 80m -3dB, 60/40/30/20m -5dB, 17m -7dB, 12m +6dB, 10m +2dB.
The mostly relatively sharp frequency band selection (VC Tune) is clearly visible.
• Problem/Dilemma with using an external RX phasing/ QRM Eliminator, there is now a missing function of routing the Main (TX) /RX Ant 1 Signal safely through to an RX outport (as in K3S). In FTDX101MP it is either RX all on Ant 1 or all RX on R3.
• The phasing unit NCC1 with me has 2 channels: A noisy main Antenna, B noise local noise pick-up by a 1m diameter magnetic broadband loop. The S/N improved, vector combined output port signal must go to the Transceiver RX input port ( e.g. R3).
• Therefore the safe routing through of the main antenna (only Rx function ) is badly missed here.
• Envisioned external solution: Order/Installation of a separate, “Modular Receive Antenna Interface for Transceivers DXE-RTR-2” in front of the FTDX1001MP

I also own a Elecraft K3S and did some EMI (Electromag. Interference) coupling experiment into the power supply (PS) port. This is another, aside from antenna port, important EMI port and potentially causing uncontrolled RX coupling. The effect is often overlooked. Conducted EMI -on the PS- of TRX ( Transceiver) results in backdoor coupling , if e.g. using external 12V (13.8V DC) external PS in a station.
Investigation: Elecraft K3S ( minus on chassis ground and grounded by terminal (stud) to station ground => risk of loop formation with PE protective earth):
Lab-Testing in a well-controlled coupling experiment (TRX Antenna terminated with DL 50 Ohm , 12V Battery operated-20 dB choked off, EMI injected capacitively into TRX plus, minus on GND )
• one can show S3 on the S-Meter on 80m for already some 20mVpp CM voltage ( 12V DC plus/minus input of TRX).
• In the same test on 20m it takes just 30mVpp to reach S8
We have seen over 100mVpp induced on the 13.8V DC supply voltage in a K3S experiment 28MHz, 60W into Dummy Load 50Ohm.
Using a MDS-clamp (EMC Test 30M-1GHz, --CISPR 16-1-3--, applicable to only on cable connection on K3S) test on the DC supply line resulted in 76dBpW ( about 40 micro Watt @28 MHz).
This test is a "simple system configuration substitute" for a radiated test. An anechoic chamber was not available.
From this one can estimate the 100W PA shielding/filtering efficiency to be about 62 dB [10xlg(60W/40uW)]. This is not unusual, rather reasonable and ok.
All this can easily be field/stray effect induced in a complex station wiring-situation.
If you have only one, individual, linear power supply (with earth-minus-GND on PE) backdoor coupling may get even more critical.
High permeability CM (Common Mode) ferrite chokes (in 13.8V DC plus/minus) will easily saturate. Plus-amp and minus-amp will be different, because the GND (GND K3/ Earth PE ) will carry the return current difference!
The worst configuration is to use one common Power-Supply-BUS for several TRX (daisy chaining, forming ground coupling loops ). TRX with an internal PS ( mains operated TRX) are typically better decoupled, causing less RX EMI backdoor input.
Hopefully you have now a better understanding for trying to de-noise your station!
------------------------------------------

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> Im Auftrag von Morgan Bailey
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 9. Juni 2021 02:27
An: Ray <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

I went to a radio store to see what all the hubbub was about the FTDX10. I came prepared to test the radio. After having downloaded the manual and reading it through 3 or 4 times getting the menus, setting, knobs, filtering, general settings well in my head, I went to the store and turned one on for about 2 solid hours. I was so upset with my K3S/P3 costing over 6K$ being shown up by a $1700 radio. Granted it does not have all the bells and whistles that the Elecraft had but for a great receiver, it blows the
K3 away with band noise, and electrical noise mitigation. I found the receiver to be much quieter over all and with no harsh roar constantly as the K3S has. The Pan Adaptor was way easier to use and adjustment to 5khz wide was a S&P dream to operate with an adjustable notch and contour peaking or nulling functions continuously variable for best reception.

I went home and got my money back from Elecraft, $9879, they had it for over a year, and once it was in my account I ordered sight unseen and untested both FTDX101MP and D models. The MP came first. I had the D sent to the factory to install the extra 300hz cw filter. Putting the K3S/P3 on an A/B switch with the MP, the difference was astounding. I immediately listed the K3S/P3 and sold it within an hour. It went out the next morning to UPS and I have had no regrets. Both my son, NS0R, and I operated the Yaesu's in multiple contests. This was the first time in my life that we could hear stations that we could not work. Having the Yaesus was an absolute game changer for me. The VC tune is the money. This last WPX cw we increased our score by a million because we could hear stations that the K3 was deaf to. The Band noise and intermittent electrical noise in the city was easily managed by the FTDX101MP. The K3S could not even come close to this performance. Simply put the FTDX10 and the FTDX101MP/D just have better receivers, due to the noise mitigation, lower internal noise, easier to listen to for long periods, and features like the adjustable notch and contour controls coupled with the VC tune and remarkable DSP, width and IF shift controls...it is just not a little bit better, it is atleast a magnitude better. Running SO2R on a city lot with cramped antenna space is not a problem. They are clean and no phase noise/composite noise is detected on transmit in the other radio on receive. I have them side by side. I have given 2 or 3 presentations on Zoom to explain how I use the rig and the great noise mitigation that It can do. When you push a button or turn a knob on these radios, something happens. They are not there for display.

FTDX101MP and D---The best radios I have ever owned or operated.

73, Morgan NJ8M

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 6:55 PM Ray <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Like the Old Saying……
> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
>
> Ray WA6VAB K3
>
>
> From: Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
> To: Richard; Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
>
> Richard and all,
>
> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many
> weak signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.
>
> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
> operation. Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
>
> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
> excellent. He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
>
> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought
> it to be a point of interest to some.
>
> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
> experiences.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
> > Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300
> > and
> an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and
> where would each outshine the other?
> >
> > Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]