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A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

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wayne burdick

TYPO [re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton]

Administrator

I said:

> We could completely redesign the AF stage if it were warranted, requiring replacement of the DSP board. Some customers might be willing to pay for such an upgrade, and we wouldn't….

I left off part of that sentence. I meant to say:

"...and we wouldn't hesitate to phase such a change into production."

But again, we're *not* planning to make such a change. We feel that the current AF amp circuit is a reasonable tradeoff between cost, power output, quiescent current drain, IMD, and low RFI.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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KV5J

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Dick Dickinson

My only point is that from reading Wayne's statement, Elecraft is not going to make improvements to the K3 that can not be fitted to the units in the field. And I'm not sure there is any improvement that couldn't be fitted due to the design of the K3. If I remember when I built my K3 are the parts just plugged in. That makes me think the K3 today is not the best K3 that could be produced. It's just not going to be made available because it would make today's K3 "less valuable". Where does that put plans for any future model? I would think making changes to the K3 would be easier on K3 owners than a completely new model. It could be a lot less tooling. As I have stated before the K3 as it is today is getting old. But hey Kenwood is still selling the TS-2000. Not that I would want one.

I am a K3 owner SN 2654 with no plans to replace it with another brand. I'm just pushing for the next best great product from Elecraft. I know it's there.

Keith, K5ENS

Richard Fjeld

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

I'd like to weigh in at this point with a thought and a question.

Suppose a K4 were to be introduced. If it was a standard (typical) radio, I can't imagine what improvements it would have other than some specs we could not hear as was eluded to in this discussion.

So the questions is; Unless it was very different, would we want to buy it?

Dick, n0ce

----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Hystad
To: Keith-K5ENS
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

I for one would prefer that Elecraft continue their plan to provide support to all
K3s in the field from the earliest serial number to the latest with the same
upgrades and options.

As far as doing something different for an even better K3, that would not be a K3, maybe it would be
called a K4 or whatever. However, as long as the K3 can be that better product, even
for those early adopters with much older K3s, this practice would hopefully continue.

As far as audio goes -- I have no complaints and that may be due to the fact that I don't
put up an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer on my audio output as a means of using the
K3. My ears work good enough.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Keith-K5ENS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This statement baffles me...
>
>
> "As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that
> is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a
> further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make
> it available."
>
>
> Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be
> applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back
> improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered.
> I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved
> unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3
> could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3.
>
> That's just wrong. IMHO.
>
> Keith, K5ENS
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574839.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Arthur Nienhouse

Re: K3 - KPA500 Power control

In reply to this post by Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2

/*I had the same issue which appeared out of no were after a update in
firmware I think it was because it was not happening when I first built
the Amp.
When my radio was new it did 140 watts output a later firmware update
cut this back to 110 watts when the over shoot of power to the amp on
the first dit started to appear the Amp would do a soft fault and fold
back to 250 or 300 watt output if I kept sending it would build back to
full power out put 500 watts.

What I was seeing happening was the K3 would on the first dit of the day
(cold start for the fist operating session ) would spike to 140 watts
then fold back to 110 watts this is without the amp in operate I would
see the K3 power spike 140 watt on the meter display on the Amp and the
K3 if the Amp was in operate the 140 spike would cause an instant soft
fault ((high drive pwr ) or some such message on the KPA500 display
causing the pwr output to fold back to 250 watts or so then build back
up to normal 500 watt output.

I think there might be a software code error which is allowing the K3 to
over shoot power out at the initial touch of the key.

The strange thing is it only happen when I first started up operation I
could run the amp for a hour rag chew and it never happened again....
but shut down the radio and amp come back latter this issue would be
there again.
I have peak hold setting selected on both the Amp and K3 this spike is
very fast but shows up if peak hold is selected.

Another poster stated he played with the ALC THR menu setting on the
KPA500 setting the number to 150 and this fixed the issue.
I did the same thing to my setup For most bands the ALC THR is set 150
but on 1.8 mhz my setting is 210
on 3.5 my setting is 129 on 54. mhz is also 129.

This hides the over shoot on power from my K3 on the first dit of the
day even if I have the power set to 100 watts not full right the over
shoot still is there in the radio..... and yes the drive power was set
correctly for the Amp.
I have not called service on this issue as the work around is working
the issue is with the K3 power control which is not there on the first
dit, after start up.

Regards
Art
ka9zap
*/
On 6/7/2013 10:09 AM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> My K3 and KPA500 combo seems to overshoot the powersetting at the
> beginning of a morse dot or dash. It happens with all morse code, not
> only the first dot or dots.
>
> Pwr at start of dot: abt 570 W, steady state pwr 520 W. It does show
> on my peak reading measurerents and the 550W led on the KPA lights
> with every dot/dash. Holding the key 440W led is off, so that confirms
> my other measurements.
>
> Checking the manuals does not help me at this time.
>
> Here's the setup:
> K3 #1255 with all HW mods and FW 4.60 / 2.80, running 33W on 12m
> TX ALC On (normal)
> EXT ALC Off
>
> KPA500 #1497, brandnew, FW 1.23
> ALC THR 210 (default)
>
> KAT500: BYP
>
> K-line is connected via the elecraft aux cables.
>
>
>
>
> So.....What did I miss, or is this normal?
>
>
> 73
> Arie PA3A
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Raymond Sills

K3 improvements was: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by KV5J

I don't think the intent for not adding improvements that can't be
done for -any- K3 is there to hold back any improvements. It seems to
me that the K3 -is- the best K3 that can be produced. And, it is
modular enough that those owners who want a second receiver can get
one. Or transverters, or tighter filters.

If a K3 owner wanted to go in an replace some of the circuitry...
well, they certainly could. And, it might well improve some
performance aspect. But then, it would not be a K3 anymore, but a
modified K3... and the factory would not have an obligation to
maintain it any more.. you'd be on you own. That's OK for some
people. But, part of the value of a K3 is that you know what you are
getting, that you can get factory upgrades and updates, that you can
have it serviced if some part fails.

Eventually, the K3 will reach it's "end of life" as a product... when
the components can no longer be sourced. But at least a large part of
it's feature set is done via software, and -that- can always be
updated or reworked.

73 de Ray
K2ULR

On Jun 7, 2013, at 1:58 PM, Keith-K5ENS wrote:

> My only point is that from reading Wayne's statement, Elecraft is
> not going
> to make improvements to the K3 that can not be fitted to the units
> in the
> field. And I'm not sure there is any improvement that couldn't be
> fitted due
> to the design of the K3. If I remember when I built my K3 are the
> parts
> just plugged in. That makes me think the K3 today is not the best K3
> that
> could be produced. It's just not going to be made available because
> it
> would make today's K3 "less valuable". Where does that put plans
> for any
> future model? I would think making changes to the K3 would be
> easier on K3
> owners than a completely new model. It could be a lot less
> tooling. As I
> have stated before the K3 as it is today is getting old. But hey
> Kenwood is
> still selling the TS-2000. Not that I would want one.
>
> I am a K3 owner SN 2654 with no plans to replace it with another
> brand. I'm
> just pushing for the next best great product from Elecraft. I know
> it's
> there.
>
>
>
> Keith, K5ENS
>

Bob K6UJ

Re: K3 improvements was: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

Ray,

Well stated. I agree 100%.
An earlier comment was made about the K3 being "old". I think some of us are of the
mindset that we need a new radio every couple of years. Our focus should be on performance rather than age.
Right now the K3 is a top contender performance wise, I dont see anything available that would compel
me to purchase another HF radio, even the new Kenwood TS-990.

73,
Bob
K6UJ

On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:14 PM, Ray Sills wrote:

> I don't think the intent for not adding improvements that can't be done for -any- K3 is there to hold back any improvements. It seems to me that the K3 -is- the best K3 that can be produced. And, it is modular enough that those owners who want a second receiver can get one. Or transverters, or tighter filters.
>
> If a K3 owner wanted to go in an replace some of the circuitry... well, they certainly could. And, it might well improve some performance aspect. But then, it would not be a K3 anymore, but a modified K3... and the factory would not have an obligation to maintain it any more.. you'd be on you own. That's OK for some people. But, part of the value of a K3 is that you know what you are getting, that you can get factory upgrades and updates, that you can have it serviced if some part fails.
>
> Eventually, the K3 will reach it's "end of life" as a product... when the components can no longer be sourced. But at least a large part of it's feature set is done via software, and -that- can always be updated or reworked.
>
> 73 de Ray
> K2ULR
>
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2013, at 1:58 PM, Keith-K5ENS wrote:
>
>> My only point is that from reading Wayne's statement, Elecraft is not going
>> to make improvements to the K3 that can not be fitted to the units in the
>> field. And I'm not sure there is any improvement that couldn't be fitted due
>> to the design of the K3. If I remember when I built my K3 are the parts
>> just plugged in. That makes me think the K3 today is not the best K3 that
>> could be produced. It's just not going to be made available because it
>> would make today's K3 "less valuable". Where does that put plans for any
>> future model? I would think making changes to the K3 would be easier on K3
>> owners than a completely new model. It could be a lot less tooling. As I
>> have stated before the K3 as it is today is getting old. But hey Kenwood is
>> still selling the TS-2000. Not that I would want one.
>>
>> I am a K3 owner SN 2654 with no plans to replace it with another brand. I'm
>> just pushing for the next best great product from Elecraft. I know it's
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Keith, K5ENS
>>
>
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Tony Estep

Re: K3 improvements was: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Raymond Sills

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Ray Sills <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think the intent for not adding improvements that can't be done
> for -any- K3 is there to hold back....
>
===========
Well, the idea of continuing hardware changes has not generally been
embraced by any ham manufacturers, for reasons that ought to be obvious. No
manufacturer could stay in business long if their products had versions A,
B, C, D etc., varying only by the addition of an RF choke in the audio or
similar minor tweaks.

Sometimes after a production run of several years, a staple product is
upgraded (usually with a price increase!); think of the FT897D, for
example, which introduced new circuitry and features and was a (somewhat)
different radio packaged in basically the same way as its predecessor. This
of course clobbers the resale value of the earlier model. Whether or not it
leaves a bad taste with the customer depends on the significance of the
changes, the product life of the original version, pricing, and other
marketing-related issues. Positioning a product, or a line of products, in
the minds of consumers is a delicate art that even marketing masters like
Apple or Procter & Gamble struggle with.

In the ham market, the current answer -- which I think is a very good one
-- is to put as much flexibility as possible in upgradeable firmware, which
can be supplied as a free download. This allows the manufacturer to
constantly upgrade the product, and create customer loyalty and happiness
at the same time: the exact opposite of what happens when a new hardware
version is introduced that causes the previous hardware to seem outmoded.

Tony KT0NY

--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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Gary Gregory-2

Re: K3 improvements was: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

Tony,
The k3 is the only transceiver i have kept for 5 years or more.
The improvements to date keep the k3 near the top f the pile and elecraft
continue to support their products like no other.
The numbers tell the story as Rob Sherwood states but when you look closely
the cost to buy these better numbers is real hard for me to justify.
Wayne made his point clearly and it is the elecraft philosophy which keeps
satisfied customers loyal.
A good example is the coming high band pre-amp.
73
Gary
Gary
Vk1ZZ
K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3.
On 08/06/2013 5:29 AM, "Tony Estep" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Ray Sills <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I don't think the intent for not adding improvements that can't be done
> > for -any- K3 is there to hold back....
> >
> ===========
> Well, the idea of continuing hardware changes has not generally been
> embraced by any ham manufacturers, for reasons that ought to be obvious. No
> manufacturer could stay in business long if their products had versions A,
> B, C, D etc., varying only by the addition of an RF choke in the audio or
> similar minor tweaks.
>
> Sometimes after a production run of several years, a staple product is
> upgraded (usually with a price increase!); think of the FT897D, for
> example, which introduced new circuitry and features and was a (somewhat)
> different radio packaged in basically the same way as its predecessor. This
> of course clobbers the resale value of the earlier model. Whether or not it
> leaves a bad taste with the customer depends on the significance of the
> changes, the product life of the original version, pricing, and other
> marketing-related issues. Positioning a product, or a line of products, in
> the minds of consumers is a delicate art that even marketing masters like
> Apple or Procter & Gamble struggle with.
>
> In the ham market, the current answer -- which I think is a very good one
> -- is to put as much flexibility as possible in upgradeable firmware, which
> can be supplied as a free download. This allows the manufacturer to
> constantly upgrade the product, and create customer loyalty and happiness
> at the same time: the exact opposite of what happens when a new hardware
> version is introduced that causes the previous hardware to seem outmoded.
>
>
> Tony KT0NY
>
> --
> http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Hisashi T Fujinaka

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I misheard the audio and thought it was in the TX chain. I wondered why
he wasn't more upset about it. This all makes much more sense.

On Fri, 7 Jun 2013, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Rob helped us identify the K3's audio output distortion issue, which we subsequently cleaned up with a hardware change (five years ago) and new firmware (about three years ago).
>
> If you have an older K3, see:
>
> http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/K3_AF_Stage_Upgrade_Instructions_Rev_B.pdf
>
> This mod, long since incorporated into production, adds a large RF choke in series with the AF amplifier stage's DC supply. As Rob's plots show, this dramatically knocked down the IMD products; most are now down 70-80 dB. I have pretty good ears, and once we made this change, I couldn't hear any difference between the internal amplifier and external powered speakers.
>
> Rob is correct that it would be possible to further reduce low-level distortion products. However, many of these fall outside the hearing range of the average user because they're related to an image of the 12-kHz CODEC sampling rate. What's left within hearing range could be reduced with a change in the AF amp IC, though there are diminishing returns and pragmatic considerations. The stereo audio amplifier IC we use is capable of driving two 4-ohm speakers at up to a few watts apiece, and it generates no RFI because it is a classic analog device running class AB. We could get higher drive power using a beefier analog device with much higher quiescent current, or by using a class-D or higher switching-style device. The former would increase the radio's current drain substantially, while the latter would require additional shielding and decoupling.
>
> As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2013, at 3:55 AM, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote
>>> Can anyone point out more about the K3 transmit audio fixes that
>>> Sherwood talked about?
>>
>> I thought most of the comments were about receive audio distortion. There
>> have been several changes, both hardware (DSP upgrade) and firmware (AGC
>> Decay) and possibly others which affect this.
>>
>> 73, Bill W4ZV
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 improvements was: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Tony Estep

Tony and all,

Have a look at the history of Elecraft products - namely the K2 (the K3,
KPA500, KAT500 and KX3 are following the same path BTW).

A K2 of any serial number can be upgraded by the customer to a
performance level equal to the latest K2 kits being shipped.
Other than very minor differences (none affecting performance), my Field
Test K2 SN 00020 performs as well as a K2 kit recently built and
properly aligned and calibrated.
Elecraft provided that capability by designing changes that can be
retrofitted, and are sold at modest cost to the builder.

The main difference between the K2 and the K3 is that the K3 can be
upgraded at the factory, the K2 must be done by the builder or a
builder-for-hire.

The K3 is following that same model. As hardware improvements are made,
they are also available to the customer. The Elecraft website has a
list of mods for the K3 along with the serial number range when it was
incorporated into production. If you have an older K3, just look at the
mods that have been available since your K3's serial number, and if
there is doubt about whether those mods have been installed, download
the mod instructions which contain information about how to determine if
that mod has been applied to your K3.

The only "problem" with buying an early K3 is not knowing which mods
have been installed. The Elecraft website along with a small bit of
investigation will reveal whether that early K3 is up to date or not.

Of course, the K3 firmware is easily upgradable at no cost - just
download the current version using K3 Utility to download it and then to
load it onto your K3.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/7/2013 3:29 PM, Tony Estep wrote:

Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Gustavo Villada

Keith:

Please read Wayne's reply again.

Note that he says that this is an issue with the internal audio amplifier driving UNPOWERED speakers.

Two things:

1) with the internal speaker, you cannot hear the issue at all
2) with POWERED EXTERNAL SPEAKERS connected to line out, you bypass the internal audio amplifier and cannot hear the issue at all.

So the solution is; if it bothers you, do not hook up external speakers,to the internal audio amp, use headsets or external powered speakers (as I do) on the line out connector.

Also consider that if what you propose was put into practice, the value of your early rig would suffer.

You may be independently wealthy, and may not care... But with two kids in college a car payment and a mortgage, I certainly do care.

Thank you Wayne, for insuring that my investment holds its value.

Lu Romero - W4LT
K3/P3/KPA500/K1

---------------------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 09:09:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Keith-K5ENS <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

This statement baffles me...

"As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that
is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a
further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make
it available."

Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be
applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back
improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered.
I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved
unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3
could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3.

That's just wrong. IMHO.

Keith, K5ENS
Sent from my iPad
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

I do not read Wayne's response that way at all.
The issue has been fixed except perhaps for all but the most discerning
ears (audiophiles).
Wayne has 'musician ears', and would not make statements like that if
not good to his ears.

As far as the K3 audio being better on powered external speakers than
with un-powered speakers, think about that for a minute. Good powered
speakers should faithfully replicate the input signal, and that includes
any distortion products that may be present in the input signal.

Good unpowered speakers should produce an even cleaner output because
the input signal is not further distorted by the characteristics of the
powered speakers. Unfortunately, good unpowered speakers are not the
metal cased 8 inch speakers that were available with old National or
Hallicrafters receivers, they have a lot of bass response and color the
signal a LOT. They may sound good to many ears, but are not a faithful
representation of the input signal. Try some high efficiency good
quality bookshelf speakers for a fair comparison.

If one wants a Hi-Fi output, then it is time to shop the audiophile
stores for speakers rather than the consumer grade computer (and iPod)
speakers that are commonly used.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/7/2013 8:54 PM, Lu Romero wrote:

> Keith:
>
> Please read Wayne's reply again.
>
> Note that he says that this is an issue with the internal audio amplifier driving UNPOWERED speakers.
>
> Two things:
>
> 1) with the internal speaker, you cannot hear the issue at all
> 2) with POWERED EXTERNAL SPEAKERS connected to line out, you bypass the internal audio amplifier and cannot hear the issue at all.
>
> So the solution is; if it bothers you, do not hook up external speakers,to the internal audio amp, use headsets or external powered speakers (as I do) on the line out connector.
>
> Also consider that if what you propose was put into practice, the value of your early rig would suffer.
>
> You may be independently wealthy, and may not care... But with two kids in college a car payment and a mortgage, I certainly do care.
>
> Thank you Wayne, for insuring that my investment holds its value.
>
>
> .net/donate.html
>

Dr. William J. Schmidt, II

FW: TYPO [re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton]

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Your point is well taken and I support your direction. There is another
avenue as well... some of us are well capable of making updates to the radio
on our own (as you have seen with recent discussion of "Mods"). It wouldn't
be out of the realm of possibility to see a spin-off group (of us eager
egg-heads as it were,) put some ideas together. I think I would be
sensitive enough to Elecraft to work "with you" and let you decide if you
want to offer the updates... I have some ideas...

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ/ PJ4HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch
Staunton, Illinois

email: [hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:38 PM
To: Keith-K5ENS
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] TYPO [re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton]

I said:

> We could completely redesign the AF stage if it were warranted, requiring
replacement of the DSP board. Some customers might be willing to pay for
such an upgrade, and we wouldn't..

I left off part of that sentence. I meant to say:

"...and we wouldn't hesitate to phase such a change into production."

But again, we're *not* planning to make such a change. We feel that the
current AF amp circuit is a reasonable tradeoff between cost, power output,
quiescent current drain, IMD, and low RFI.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: FW: TYPO [re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton]

Those capable of making non-Elecraft mods to the K3 would not be
discouraged. Whether those mods would ever be picked up for inclusion
into the K3 design remains a decision for Wayne and Eric to make.

I use the K2 as an example -- there are several K2 mods that have been
quite useful to some owners, but did not make it into the 'official
Elecraft' mod list. Most of those were operating conveniences as
opposed to performance enhancements, and the list includes my W3FPR
Fixed Audio Output mod, the N0SS CW Tuning Mod, and the Clifton Labs
Z10000-K2 IF Output Mod which provides an IF output for a Panadapter.

As in the "K2 days", document and publicize your mod(s) and see if
Elecraft sees fit to incorporate them into the current K3 design.
Note that the K2 mods mentioned above did not make it into the K2
'official mods', but the function provided DID make it into the K3
design, so your ideas will not be lost, but may influence the functions
provided by a future product.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/7/2013 10:51 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt, II wrote:
> Your point is well taken and I support your direction. There is another
> avenue as well... some of us are well capable of making updates to the radio
> on our own (as you have seen with recent discussion of "Mods"). It wouldn't
> be out of the realm of possibility to see a spin-off group (of us eager
> egg-heads as it were,) put some ideas together. I think I would be
> sensitive enough to Elecraft to work "with you" and let you decide if you
> want to offer the updates... I have some ideas...
>
>

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Edward R Cole

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Gustavo Villada

I agree with Fred and with Elecraft's position on product support.

When I went "hat in hand" to appeal with my wife to agree to spend
roughly $3K for a new ham radio, it was with the understanding that
it was the last (major) ham purchase I would make. The continuous
improvement and support of the K3 make it possible for me to keep
that promise, as I see the radio evolving for long time.

This is the "promise" that SDR makes (but only Elecraft actually
does). I did squeak out buying the KX3, but the cost was largely
offset by the sale of my Yaesu radios (FT-847 & FT-817).

Already several firmware improvements for the KX3, as well as the
K3. How could you not like that (rhetorical question)?

73, Ed - KL7UW
BTW when I bought the K3, I also paid off my wife's new Toyota Van
loan (me no dummy).

-----------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 12:13:48 -0500
From: "Fred Smith" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Wayne Burdick'" <[hidden email]>, "'Keith-K5ENS'"
<[hidden email]>
Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Message-ID: <002901ce63a2$60751260$215f3720$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yup, Yup and Yup that's the reason I have Elecraft gear. Not buying new
radio gear every 2 years like I did with my Yaesu and Icom gear. I for one
agree with the business model and great equipment.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
[hidden email]
"Kits made by KL7UW"

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Tony Estep

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...the "promise" that SDR makes (but only Elecraft actually does)....

===============
I owned two of the vaunted SDR transceivers. Their hardware design is
flawed (sudden power spikes that could blow an amp, no QSK, poor auto-tune,
and other miscellaneous stuff), but more to the point that Ed mentions,
each of their much-trumpeted software updated brought an immediate flood of
bug reports (some quite serious) from users that indicated that little or
no testing had been done via on-air operation. Add to that the fact a K3
with LP-Pan and NaP3 offers a complete superset of their capabilities, and
the choice was oh so obvious.

Tony KT0NY
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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Gustavo Villada

I guess we are arguing quibbles here, Don.

Of course youre correct in your comments regarding powered/unpowered
speakers.

My ancient Yamaha YST-M101's, which are my primary station speakers on the
line output of my K3, sound just fine to me! But since I usually use
headphones, I rarely listen through them anyhow. But still, when I do
listen without headphones, Im a happy guy (especially after the K3DSP mod
was installed! The buzzy flyback-transformer-like high end artifacts are
now GONE!)

I think this entire argument is moot, but then I had to throw my hat into
the ring... I made a pretty good living making good audio and video, and
still do.

The K3 sound just fine to me the way it is.

Waiting for the note from the "Moderator" that we have beat this subject to
death already.

-lu-
W4LT

-----------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 21:21:02 -0400
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I do not read Wayne's response that way at all.
The issue has been fixed except perhaps for all but the most discerning
ears (audiophiles).
Wayne has 'musician ears', and would not make statements like that if
not good to his ears.

As far as the K3 audio being better on powered external speakers than
with un-powered speakers, think about that for a minute. Good powered
speakers should faithfully replicate the input signal, and that includes
any distortion products that may be present in the input signal.

Good unpowered speakers should produce an even cleaner output because
the input signal is not further distorted by the characteristics of the
powered speakers. Unfortunately, good unpowered speakers are not the
metal cased 8 inch speakers that were available with old National or
Hallicrafters receivers, they have a lot of bass response and color the
signal a LOT. They may sound good to many ears, but are not a faithful
representation of the input signal. Try some high efficiency good
quality bookshelf speakers for a fair comparison.

If one wants a Hi-Fi output, then it is time to shop the audiophile
stores for speakers rather than the consumer grade computer (and iPod)
speakers that are commonly used.

73,
Don W3FPR

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Phil Hystad-3

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

On Jun 8, 2013, at 10:11 AM, Luis V. Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:

> <stuff deleted>
> Waiting for the note from the "Moderator" that we have beat this subject to death already.
>

I think very few subjects are beaten to death on this forum since they always seem to keep coming back and alive time to time. Good for me because I usually don't get the finer points of the debate until the third or forth time around.

peh

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Bill Clarke

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

From what point (date or serial number) was the K3DSP mod included?

I have never tried the K3's line out for my amplified speakers. I use
the Behringer MS40s fed from a Behringer 802 mixer.

Thanks,

Bill W2BLC

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Bruce Beford-2

Re: A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton

In reply to this post by Gustavo Villada

Your answer lies here:
http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/dsp_rev_c_information.htm

Bruce
N1RX

> From what point (date or serial number) was the K3DSP mod included?

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123