AF/RF Knob situation - joined the club

[AJSOENKE]

After 2+ years of operation K-3 SN31 has just succumbed to a compound failure of the smaller Main control AF and RF knobs.
I thought I was pretty lucky when I first saw list notes about the knobs failing and figured maybe a bad batch, etc. The rig SN 31 was originally placed in service in late October 2007. Last week during CQWW I lost AF control, determined the knob ws slipping and took a closer look. One of the set screws was at the face of a fracture that ran across the entire half of the shaft recess. For a quick fix, I decided to swap knobs with RF control. I no sooner slipped the other knob on the AF shaft and it split lengthwise. Quick trip to the junk box and an old Heathkit all metal knob saved the day.

Today I take a look at the list and WOW what do I see, 3 days of knobitis has hit the fan.  So, maybe the problem is not going to go away that soon. I figure if Elecraft hasn't been real responsive about the problem, they are at a loss for answers and need a few days to regroup. It does happen now and then. So, I haven't called for or requested any replacement pars right now. What I have done is take a look at some of the vast number of oscilloscopes I have piled up around my classroom. I have Leader, Heath, Phillips, Toshiba, Hitachi, Tek, ad HPs - several dozen. The only one that doesn't have a mini shaft control onit anywhere is a 60 year old DuMont. At least 75% of these scopes are over 25 years old and have had pretty rough handling in school room. Some I even brought to the classroom after 20 years use in my engineering Labs. Not one has ever had to have a knob replaced for breakage.

So what's the difference?  As far as I can tell the main difference, besides color, is the old well used knobs are made of a platic that is more compliant, and most have a metal collar inserted in them, but not all. The Heatkits from early days - up til about 1970 used metal knobs in most ham rig applications. My 54 year old Hallicrafters use plain plastic knobs - no inserts but larger shaft size.

I have always used a very light touch when tightening the set screws, so I have no fear I overdid it.

Right now the plan here is to get the operation stabilized with the best thing I can find, then, if I like the feel and appearance, stick with it til Elecraft gets a handle on things and can supply good replacements.  Some of the Heath metal knobs are an almost perfect match and could be anodized black for a durable finish.

Al,  WA6VNN  
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[Rick Dettinger-3]

> Elecraft already has a good handle on things.  Give them a call and  
> they will fix you up in a few days.  They have solved the problem.

73

Rick Dettinger   K7MW

> Right now the plan here is to get the operation stabilized with the  
> best thing I can find, then, if I like the feel and appearance,  
> stick with it til Elecraft gets a handle on things and can supply  
> good replacements.  Some of the Heath metal knobs are an almost  
> perfect match and could be anodized black for a durable finish.
>
> Al,  WA6VNN
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[Julian, G4ILO]

AJSOENKE wrote

After 2+ years of operation K-3 SN31 has just succumbed to a compound failure of the smaller Main control AF and RF knobs.

So it's not just those who had knobs from a bad batch earlier in the year.

When I wrote earlier that I didn't have confidence that I wouldn't eventually join the club someone replied that if I was concerned I should just ask Elecraft support for a replacement set. My response was that I didn't think it would be fair since I haven't actually had a failure yet, and if all owners of older K3s requested new knobs it might cause Elecraft a bit of a problem. But if it's more likely to be when, rather than if, I join the fractured knob club perhaps I ought to ask for some spares.

[Richard Squire - HB9ANM]

No problem so far with SN 586 after 18 months - keeping my fingers crossed!
But as far as the four Shift/Width/Speed/Power push-on buttons are concerned, they seem to sit very tightly and I am a bit worried, should I need a replacement, that pushing or pulling too hard on these may damage the encoders. Any previous experience in this connection?
73
Richard - HB9ANM

Julian, G4ILO wrote

AJSOENKE wrote

After 2+ years of operation K-3 SN31 has just succumbed to a compound failure of the smaller Main control AF and RF knobs.

So it's not just those who had knobs from a bad batch earlier in the year.

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Hi Al,

This issue has been resolved for a number of months. See my list posting addressing this in the thread you referred to.

73,
Eric

[hidden email] wrote:

>After 2+ years of operation K-3 SN31 has just succumbed to a compound failure of the smaller Main control AF and RF knobs.
>I thought I was pretty lucky when I first saw list notes about the knobs failing and figured maybe a bad batch, etc. The rig SN 31 was originally placed in service in late October 2007. Last week during CQWW I lost AF control, determined the knob ws slipping and took a closer look. One of the set screws was at the face of a fracture that ran across the entire half of the shaft recess. For a quick fix, I decided to swap knobs with RF control. I no sooner slipped the other knob on the AF shaft and it split lengthwise. Quick trip to the junk box and an old Heathkit all metal knob saved the day.
>
>Today I take a look at the list and WOW what do I see, 3 days of knobitis has hit the fan.  So, maybe the problem is not going to go away that soon. I figure if Elecraft hasn't been real responsive about the problem, they are at a loss for answers and need a few days to regroup. It does happen now and then. So, I haven't called for or requested any replacement pars right now. What I have done is take a look at some of the vast number of oscilloscopes I have piled up around my classroom. I have Leader, Heath, Phillips, Toshiba, Hitachi, Tek, ad HPs - several dozen. The only one that doesn't have a mini shaft control onit anywhere is a 60 year old DuMont. At least 75% of these scopes are over 25 years old and have had pretty rough handling in school room. Some I even brought to the classroom after 20 years use in my engineering Labs. Not one has ever had to have a knob replaced for breakage.
>
>So what's the difference?  As far as I can tell the main difference, besides color, is the old well used knobs are made of a platic that is more compliant, and most have a metal collar inserted in them, but not all. The Heatkits from early days - up til about 1970 used metal knobs in most ham rig applications. My 54 year old Hallicrafters use plain plastic knobs - no inserts but larger shaft size.
>
>I have always used a very light touch when tightening the set screws, so I have no fear I overdid it.
>
>Right now the plan here is to get the operation stabilized with the best thing I can find, then, if I like the feel and appearance, stick with it til Elecraft gets a handle on things and can supply good replacements.  Some of the Heath metal knobs are an almost perfect match and could be anodized black for a durable finish.
>
>Al,  WA6VNN  
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[Dave, G4AON]

I beg to disagree Eric, I just checked my K3... Took the AF knob off to
see if there was any sign of a crack and was puzzled as to why the grub
screws seemed very slack. You guessed, the knob is broken so for early
K3 owners replacement knobs (before they fall apart) would be appreciated.

73 Dave, G4AON
K3/100 #80, supplied Nov 2007
-----------------------------
Hi Al,

This issue has been resolved for a number of months. See my list posting
addressing this in the thread you referred to.

73,
Eric
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[N8CEP]

I wish everyone with broken/cracked knobs would just ask Elecraft to send
them a set of new knobs. They are much better than the old ones. Maybe the
endless traffic about this already beat to death subject would cease!

W8GX



----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G4AON" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AF/RF Knob situation - joined the club

>I beg to disagree Eric, I just checked my K3... Took the AF knob off to
> see if there was any sign of a crack and was puzzled as to why the grub
> screws seemed very slack. You guessed, the knob is broken so for early
> K3 owners replacement knobs (before they fall apart) would be appreciated.
>
> 73 Dave, G4AON
> K3/100 #80, supplied Nov 2007
> -----------------------------
> Hi Al,
>
> This issue has been resolved for a number of months. See my list posting
> addressing this in the thread you referred to.
>
> 73,
> Eric
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Keith Hamilton-3 wrote

I wish everyone with broken/cracked knobs would just ask Elecraft to send
them a set of new knobs. They are much better than the old ones. Maybe the
endless traffic about this already beat to death subject would cease!

If they did, no-one would be aware that older K3s are experiencing this problem, not just those with knobs from a faulty batch as Eric claimed in the posting he referred to. It isn't welcome news but I think it is of interest to many, and I agree with G4AON that Elecraft should admit that the originals were not strong enough and allow all owners of older K3s to request replacements without waiting for the originals to fail, as it appears likely they will sooner or later.

[WA2SI]

"Maybe the endless traffic about this already beat to death subject would
cease!"

I simply must comment re. my amazement at folks not wanting others to
discuss a particular subject. Is it not just as easy, as well as
considerate, to simply not participate in the thread?

>From an earlier post:

> Can we let this thread slip into the ether?

I've always been a tad fascinated by a request such as this. If a group of
individuals enjoy discussing a certain topic and a few others do not, is it
not just as easy for the few to just delete or skip that particular thread
rather than speak for "we?"

Imagine coming upon a roundtable/ragchew re. a topic we didn't particularly
enjoy. Would we QSK and ask that the discussion cease... Or would we simply
QSY?

To Eric, please accept my apologies if this sentiment seems at odds with
your duties as list moderator. It was certainly not meant as such. Having
witnessed the results of censorship (in the form of vocal/expressional
suppression) firsthand, I suppose I am a tad more sensitive with regard to
the slippery slope that exists when folks attempt to quell a discussion
based on their preference of subject matter. You, of course, have bandwidth
concerns. This was just a somewhat playful mini-rant - hihi.

Wishing all on the list and their families and warm wonderful holiday season
as well as a healthy and Happy New Year. As always, take care es...

Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Julian,

Not all "older K3s" are experiencing the knob problems.  I have one of
the early K3s along with the others in the K3 Firmware Field Test group,
and there have been no identified problems with the knobs used at that
time in my recollection.
This is the result of a batch of faulty knobs, just as Eric has
described, and while it will take a while for all of the faulty knobs to
be identified, it is just a batch problem - IMHO, there is no need for
Elecraft to arbitrarily supply knobs to those K3 owners that do not have
a problem.
It may take a bit of time for failures to show up, but the "fix" is
available at no cost and is as easy as an email to K3support.com.

73,
Don W3FPR

Julian, G4ILO wrote:
> If they did, no-one would be aware that older K3s are experiencing this
problem, not just those with knobs from a faulty batch as Eric claimed in
> the posting he referred to. It isn't welcome news but I think it is of
> interest to many, and I agree with G4AON that Elecraft should admit that the
> originals were not strong enough and allow all owners of older K3s to
> request replacements without waiting for the originals to fail, as it
> appears likely they will sooner or later.
>  
>
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[Don Ehrlich]

I have been reading all of this traffic knowing that I have never had the
problem.  Finally, just for the heck of it, I pointed my desk lamp at my K3
and can see clearly the cracks radiating from the hole in the plastic of the
audio gain knob.  It has not felt loose (yet) and had assumed that the
problem had come along  well after my early #195 was built two years ago.
Not so, and obviously not a problem of a single batch of knobs.  After years
building radios and having the typical experience of stripping threads in
plastic knobs I am always very very gentle when tightening set screws so I
know that over tightening was not the cause of these cracks.

Don K7FJ  K3 #195



>I beg to disagree Eric, I just checked my K3... Took the AF knob off to
> see if there was any sign of a crack and was puzzled as to why the grub
> screws seemed very slack. You guessed, the knob is broken so for early
> K3 owners replacement knobs (before they fall apart) would be appreciated.
>
> 73 Dave, G4AON
> K3/100 #80, supplied Nov 2007
> -----------------------------

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[Julian, G4ILO]

Don Ehrlich wrote

I have been reading all of this traffic knowing that I have never had the
problem.  Finally, just for the heck of it, I pointed my desk lamp at my K3
and can see clearly the cracks radiating from the hole in the plastic of the
audio gain knob.

Well would you believe it! I didn't think there was anything wrong with the knobs on #222 and I was just being my usual "pain in the ass" (in the opinion of some people) because I was concerned I might have a knob failure eventually. Then "just for the heck of it" I put my magnifying headset on to examine the knobs more closely. The first three were OK but when I examined the RF/SQL SUB outer knob there is a hairline crack going from the set screw hole straight back. You wouldn't know it by turning the knob but the crack is clearly visible and can be closed by squeezing the knob (which has now made it a bit loose.)

I will be contacting Elecraft Parts for a replacement set but no apologies to those who would like to believe there isn't a problem and this thread would end, I think the extent of this issue will be a revelation to many people. Check your knobs with a magnifier - you might be surprised!

[Richard Squire - HB9ANM]

Good Idea, Julian, but no sign of a crack here - not even under my microscope!
I must be lucky.
K3 SN 586

Julian, G4ILO wrote

Check your knobs with a magnifier - you might be surprised!

[Mike Harris]

G'day,

I regret to say that under magnification (3x) #345 also has cracks
in the main RX RF Gain knob.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian, G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AF/RF Knob situation - joined the club
Me Too!

>
>
> Don Ehrlich wrote:
>>
>> I have been reading all of this traffic knowing that I have never
>> had the
>> problem.  Finally, just for the heck of it, I pointed my desk
>> lamp at my
>> K3
>> and can see clearly the cracks radiating from the hole in the
>> plastic of
>> the
>> audio gain knob.
>>
> Well would you believe it! I didn't think there was anything wrong
> with the
> knobs on #222 and I was just being my usual "pain in the ass" (in
> the
> opinion of some people) because I was concerned I might have a
> knob failure
> eventually. Then "just for the heck of it" I put my magnifying
> headset on to
> examine the knobs more closely. The first three were OK but when I
> examined
> the RF/SQL SUB outer knob there is a hairline crack going from the
> set screw
> hole straight back. You wouldn't know it by turning the knob but
> the crack
> is clearly visible and can be closed by squeezing the knob (which
> has now
> made it a bit loose.)
>
> I will be contacting Elecraft Parts for a replacement set but no
> apologies
> to those who would like to believe there isn't a problem and this
> thread
> would end, I think the extent of this issue will be a revelation
> to many
> people. Check your knobs with a magnifier - you might be
> surprised!
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.

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[John A. McCabe]

Same Here. After examination under magnification, My #249 has a crack on
the Main volume control knob. It works fine, and I would not have
noticed it unless I checked  it with a magnifier.
 
John KD8K


Mike Harris wrote:

> G'day,
>
> I regret to say that under magnification (3x) #345 also has cracks
> in the main RX RF Gain knob.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike VP8NO
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julian, G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AF/RF Knob situation - joined the club
> Me Too!
>
>
>  
>> Don Ehrlich wrote:
>>    
>>> I have been reading all of this traffic knowing that I have never
>>> had the
>>> problem.  Finally, just for the heck of it, I pointed my desk
>>> lamp at my
>>> K3
>>> and can see clearly the cracks radiating from the hole in the
>>> plastic of
>>> the
>>> audio gain knob.
>>>
>>>      
>> Well would you believe it! I didn't think there was anything wrong
>> with the
>> knobs on #222 and I was just being my usual "pain in the ass" (in
>> the
>> opinion of some people) because I was concerned I might have a
>> knob failure
>> eventually. Then "just for the heck of it" I put my magnifying
>> headset on to
>> examine the knobs more closely. The first three were OK but when I
>> examined
>> the RF/SQL SUB outer knob there is a hairline crack going from the
>> set screw
>> hole straight back. You wouldn't know it by turning the knob but
>> the crack
>> is clearly visible and can be closed by squeezing the knob (which
>> has now
>> made it a bit loose.)
>>
>> I will be contacting Elecraft Parts for a replacement set but no
>> apologies
>> to those who would like to believe there isn't a problem and this
>> thread
>> would end, I think the extent of this issue will be a revelation
>> to many
>> people. Check your knobs with a magnifier - you might be
>> surprised!
>>
>> -----
>> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
>>    
>
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>  

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[Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO]

Don Ehrlich wrote:

> ...Not so, and obviously not a problem of a single batch of
knobs...

I think there has been some misunderstanding here. My reading of
Eric's explanation is that the KNOB MANUFACTURER screwed up in a
single batch (or perhaps a few consecutive batches) of knobs.
Typically, with parts made in batches, all the batches go into the
same bin after initial inspection to make sure they meet specs,
and are subsequently shipped out from the mixed bin, irrespective
of the original manufacturing batch they came from. This would
mean that, out of a given lot shipped to the customer (Elecraft),
a few of the knobs in each shipped lot will likely be from the bad
manufacturing batch until ALL knobs from the bad manufacturing
batch(es) have been used up (or the problem is discovered and all
existing knobs are purged). This could potentially take a LONG
time, and explains why some end users have in the past received
two different shipments from Elecraft of knobs that turned out to
be bad.

According to Eric, the problem was discovered months ago and there
are no more bad knobs in Elecraft stock, only newly-manufactured
knobs with the fiberglass fill.

Bill W5WVO


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[wayne burdick]

Hi all,

As we've said multiple times: We immediately replace such knobs on  
request. Posting about it on the reflector doesn't count. Please  
contacting us directly :)

Tnx
Wayne

----
http://www.elecraft.com

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[Tim Heasman]

Hi All,

Just checked some of the knobs and it would seem some of the threads in the
knobs are not parallel and get tighter as the grub screw is screwed further
in.  It would seem that a tapered tap has been used on some of the holes and
due to small shaft hole has not been through enough to make a parallel
thread.

73

Tim
gm4lmh




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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Hi Julian,

I am just reading your emails now as I eat my Sunday morning breakfast.
(Hopefully my wife won't notice I'm reading email at the breakfast
table..) I was not able to read or respond to list postings most of
yesterday (Saturday). Our Elecraft company holiday party was last night
and I was busy with preparation for that and welcoming our out of town
employees as they arrived, giving them a tour of our new headquarters.
(Gary Surrency, Lyle Johnson and a number of others.)

I think you may have misunderstood my earlier posting to the list
regarding the concentric AF/RF K3  knobs. I definitely was -not- saying
that the only serial number range where concentric AF/RF knobs could
crack was from the problem plastic batch earlier this year. That was
just the trigger point that prompted us to change the plastic
formulation. Its quite clear that some concentric knobs from earlier K3s
have been broken. In many cases over-tightening of the set screws could
cause breakage of knobs on earlier K3s. Most of the failures reported to
us fell in that category, but there certainly could have been other
failures. The number of knobs  failing inside the problematic plastic
s/n range though were an order of magnitude higher than those outside
that range.  The jump in knob failures earlier this year is what alerted
us that there might be a manufacturing / supplier issue.

That's why, when we encountered the problem batch from the manufacturer
earlier this year, we decided to go further than just requiring them to
replace the bad ones with proper equivalents. As noted in my earlier
list posting, we also changed the plastic formulation to add glass fiber
to the mix, which makes the current knobs extremely rugged. We tested
them by over tightening the set screws to an extreme, way more than is
easily done by hand with the supplied Allen wrenches.. The set screws on
the new formulation knobs always gave out first. :-)  We couldn't break
them short of hitting them with as hammer.  These knobs are custom
manufactured for us by EHC, a highly respected custom knob
manufacturerr. That's why we were caught off-guard when they ended up
having problems.

I also noted in my earlier posting that we will replace for -free- under
warranty, indefinitely, all concentric K3 knobs that have problems. That
applies to -any- s/n K3, not just the ones in the problem batch. When
any customer contacts [hidden email] and reports a breakage of any
of these knobs, we will send out a complete set of four new concentric
knobs, no questions asked.

If you are nervous about your concentric knobs, please feel free to
email [hidden email] and we will send you a new set gratis.

And of course, -all- new K3s have been shipping with the improved
plastic formulation concentric knobs for a number of months. When I get
to the office tomorrow, I'll post the approximate date and s/n range to
the list and our K3 mods/alert page so there is no confusion.

73, Eric   WA6HHQ





Julian Moss wrote:

> Hi Don.
>
> I'm replying direct and copying this to Dave G4AON and to Eric because
> I sense that some members of the list are tired of this issue but I
> want Elecraft to see it.
>
> Your explanation does not make sense to me. Al WA6VNN's K3 has serial
> number 31. Dave G4AON's serial number I think is 80. Don K7FJ has now
> posted to say the problem is apparent with his K3 serial number 195.
> All those radios were made at the end of 2007. How do they come to
> have knobs from a faulty batch which was manufactured during early
> 2009 if I understood Wayne or Eric's original explanation of the issue
> correctly?
>
> I don't see a problem yet with my own K3 serial number 222 but that
> may be because it hasn't been as heavily used as some of the others.
> But I am afraid that if I needed to remove and replace a knob for any
> reason that might be enough to cause a fracture. In short, I no longer
> have confidence that the knobs on my K3 will not fail. I'd rather fix
> the problem now than wait for a failure to happen and then send for a
> replacement at a time when it may not be so easy or convenient. But
> rather than lie about having a broken knob to get a replacement as
> some people have suggested I'd rather be able to obtain new ones
> officially.
>
> 73,
>
> On 06/12/2009, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Julian,
>>
>> Not all "older K3s" are experiencing the knob problems.  I have one of
>> the early K3s along with the others in the K3 Firmware Field Test group,
>> and there have been no identified problems with the knobs used at that
>> time in my recollection.
>> This is the result of a batch of faulty knobs, just as Eric has
>> described, and while it will take a while for all of the faulty knobs to
>> be identified, it is just a batch problem - IMHO, there is no need for
>> Elecraft to arbitrarily supply knobs to those K3 owners that do not have
>> a problem.
>> It may take a bit of time for failures to show up, but the "fix" is
>> available at no cost and is as easy as an email to K3support.com.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> Julian, G4ILO wrote:
>>    
>>> If they did, no-one would be aware that older K3s are experiencing this
>>>      
>> problem, not just those with knobs from a faulty batch as Eric claimed in
>>    
>>> the posting he referred to. It isn't welcome news but I think it is of
>>> interest to many, and I agree with G4AON that Elecraft should admit that
>>> the
>>> originals were not strong enough and allow all owners of older K3s to
>>> request replacements without waiting for the originals to fail, as it
>>> appears likely they will sooner or later.
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>
>
>  

--

_..._

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[Tony McClenny]

Hi,

I need assistance please.  My K3 is showing what appears to be a 5 watt RF
output on DATA A only.  It allows me to increase power up to 110 watts, if
using CW or SSB.  

I assume I have set something to limit the RF when using TX DATA.

Ideas?  I would like to return the rig to adjustable output when using all
modes.  

Read the manual?  I have searched through it for the past couple of hours
and am not finding what I think I am searching for.  Thank you in advance if
you can steer me to the solution.

- Tony, N3ME -

118 Ashwood Street
Bethany Beach, DE 19930-9699
Grid:  FM28lm
http://www.n3me.net
Elecraft K3 # 2462

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