AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
settings in the next RTTY contest.

John KK9A - W4AAA


Ed Muns w0yk said:
Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the author
of CocoaModem.

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15 years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.  If my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes in DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.

Ed W0YK
__________________________________________________________________

G3YYD, 0210:

Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.

The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.

They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over about
one character time before and after the character being decoded. They then
combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on their
individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about half a
second).

For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or slow AGC
makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
chewing - slow.

As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts of a
RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal into the
adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally tend
to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The filters in a
modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation than
the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for human
hearing limitations not that of the decoder.

73 David G3YYD
__________________________________________________________________

W7AY, 1015:

If you are willing to manually ride the RF/IF gain controls, "AGC off" is
best.

As David G3YYD has pointed out, you need the "gains" of the Mark and Space
tones to be perfectly equal.  Under poor SNR but good propagation
conditions, 0.5 dB of imbalance will cause noticeable harm in the error
rates.

Basically, you want the gains between the mark (M) and space (S) bits to be
constant.  The strength of the composite signal (M+S) need not be constant.

Together with proper filters (narrow enough to avoid QRM while adding no
intersymbol interference), slicing (deciding whether mark or space has
arrived) is an equally important aspect of FSK demodulator design.  You can
easily make the case that the slicer becomes more important when conditions
are poorer.

The slicer decides whether the mark signal or the space signal is greater at
each bit period.

Good demodulators take care of slicer imbalances by the use of "automatic
threshold correction" (ATC) circuits or software code.  You can also use FM
techniques to get around mark/space imbalance, but that creates more
problems that it solves -- that is why good demodulators nowadays use two
individual "AM" demodulators.

It is always best to present to the demodulator with a signal that has as
little possible tone imbalance so that the ATC has the least amount of work
to do.

This way, you minimize the problems that the demodulator has to overcome.

Thus, you would rather have AGC that does not keep the amplitude perfectly
constant, as long as the two tones have the same amplitudes.   Remember, the
key is to have no imbalance.  The two tones must fluctuate by the same
amount.

Good A/D converters (sound cards) provide dozens of dB worth of dynamic
range to handle fading.  Just keep remembering that RTTY demodulation
depends on SNR and not on signal strength.  Receiver requirements are very
different from voice or CW modes.

The ATC circuit has to work really, really hard (and fails often) when the
AGC is fast enough to be affected by the tone amplitudes fluctuating
independently.  The AGC time constant must therefore be much longer than a
bit period.  Even an AGC time constant that is around 176 ms (character
period of RTTY) already pose problems.

Thus "AGC off" is the best, and if you are not willing to constantly ride
the RF gain control, the slowest AGC time constant possible is the next best
choice.

Use a A/D converter with good dynamic range, and let the demodulator
designers handle the rest for you instead of depending on the receiver
designers and their AGC circuits (few of them are designed with RTTY in
mind).

There really should be two channels from a receiver -- one that uses no AGC,
and is fed to the demodulator.  The other is a channel with AGC that goes to
the human ears.  That is how I embed an RTTY demodulator into my own SDR
program.  With floating point arithmetic, the channel that is fed to the
demodulator has practically unlimited dynamic range.

73
Chen, W7AY
________________________________________________________________

G3YYD, 1223:

I see Chen got into this one before me. Chen and I both design and make
available RTTY decoders. The internal workings of those decoders for best
performance requires that the AGC does not change the receiver gain abruptly
and it stays reasonably constant over several character times. Fast AGC will
cause problems with the automatic threshold "circuit" (software actually),w
which can be avoided by using slow AGC.

As Chen says manual gain control that is set and left is best of all but in
something like a RTTY contest not practical as the human also wants to hear
the signal at a reasonable level. So the compromise is slow AGC. Hang AGC
can also work well if the parameters are set correctly.

73 David G3YYD

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[k6dgw]

Having designed digital decoders BR [Before Retirement] on various
channels including HF, we found exactly what Ed said to be true, both in
corrected and uncorrected channels.  The less AGC compression on HF
channels, the better the decode.  However, adjusting AGC parameters on
many military HF radios was a lot harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for
what it's worth, any BW less than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is
going to degrade the decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW
in QRM will too.  It's an engineering trade-off.

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/8/2017 2:39 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
> settings in the next RTTY contest.
>
> John KK9A - W4AAA
>
>
> Ed Muns w0yk said:
> Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017
>
> Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
> David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the author
> of CocoaModem.
>
> Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15 years
> concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.  If my
> ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
> AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.
>
> Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
> extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes in DX
> locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better most of
> the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
> Dual-Tone filter.
>
> Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
> intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.
>
> Ed W0YK
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> G3YYD, 0210:
>
> Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.
>
> The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
> make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.
>
> They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over about
> one character time before and after the character being decoded. They then
> combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on their
> individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
> provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
> relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about half a
> second).
>
> For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or slow AGC
> makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
> chewing - slow.
>
> As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
> this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts of a
> RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal into the
> adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally tend
> to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The filters in a
> modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
> tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation than
> the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for human
> hearing limitations not that of the decoder.
>
> 73 David G3YYD
> __________________________________________________________________
>

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[Jim Brown-10]

Looking at the fundamentals (not often learned by some RF engineers, and
almost never by digital engineers) any variation in the amplitude
response of a system is accompanied by variation in the phase response.
Ears don't like it, and decoders don't like it. Those engineers urging
wide bandwidth for RTTY know those fundamentals.

73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,3/8/2017 4:35 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> The less AGC compression on HF channels, the better the decode.  
> However, adjusting AGC parameters on many military HF radios was a lot
> harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for what it's worth, any BW less
> than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is going to degrade the
> decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW in QRM will too.  
> It's an engineering trade-off.


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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

 > Wider BW in QRM will too.

Only to the extent that the QRM causes AGC pumping or overdrives the
signal chain (receiver IF, detector, sound card) causing IMD.  RTTY
decoding software like Chen's cocoaModem, David's 2-Tone and even
Mori-san's MMTTY have extremely tight MARK/SPACE filtering capable
of rejecting signals even 100 Hz away and nothing (not even tight IF
filters) will reject an overlapping signal.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/8/2017 7:35 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Having designed digital decoders BR [Before Retirement] on various
> channels including HF, we found exactly what Ed said to be true, both in
> corrected and uncorrected channels.  The less AGC compression on HF
> channels, the better the decode.  However, adjusting AGC parameters on
> many military HF radios was a lot harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for
> what it's worth, any BW less than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is
> going to degrade the decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW
> in QRM will too.  It's an engineering trade-off.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> On 3/8/2017 2:39 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
>> settings in the next RTTY contest.
>>
>> John KK9A - W4AAA
>>
>>
>> Ed Muns w0yk said:
>> Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017
>>
>> Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
>> David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the
>> author
>> of CocoaModem.
>>
>> Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15
>> years
>> concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.
>> If my
>> ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
>> AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.
>>
>> Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
>> extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes
>> in DX
>> locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better
>> most of
>> the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
>> Dual-Tone filter.
>>
>> Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
>> intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.
>>
>> Ed W0YK
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>
>> G3YYD, 0210:
>>
>> Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.
>>
>> The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
>> make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.
>>
>> They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over
>> about
>> one character time before and after the character being decoded. They
>> then
>> combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on
>> their
>> individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
>> provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
>> relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about
>> half a
>> second).
>>
>> For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or
>> slow AGC
>> makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
>> chewing - slow.
>>
>> As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
>> this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts
>> of a
>> RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal
>> into the
>> adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally
>> tend
>> to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The
>> filters in a
>> modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
>> tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation
>> than
>> the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for
>> human
>> hearing limitations not that of the decoder.
>>
>> 73 David G3YYD
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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