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Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

Knut,

This has been a "corruption" of the RS-232 environment.
RS-232 is a point to point protocol, and too many ham applications have
tried to turn it into a multi-point communication. It just does not work.

Multiple receivers will work, but multiple drivers will not. It all
boils down to that point.

In addition, all but the far end receivers should provide the pullup
resistors. If that is followed, no harm will occur.
Unfortunately, many devices want to be that far end receiver with the
pullup resistors, and chaos is the result.

Until a systems approach is implemented (don't hold your breath), the
RS-232 and interoperatability between manufacturers will be a thing only
to be wished for. Each manufacturer has there own version of
interoperability which works fine until someone offers some gear which
does not conform.

Maybe we need a ham radio "standards" organization to resolve the
problems and make all things ham radio to work together. That is not
likely in the near future IMHO.

73,
Don W3FPR

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/1/2018 7:58 PM, ab2tc wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.
>
> If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus) were to obey the rules to
> have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem of
> "false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
> practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
> years.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

In reply to this post by ab2tc

> If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus) were to obey the rules
> to have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the
> problem of "false power" to devices on the bus.
Of course, they would fail to work with older Yaesu transceivers that
source voltage for a logic high and are open circuit on logic low.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/1/2018 7:58 PM, ab2tc wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.
>
> If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus) were to obey the rules to
> have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem of
> "false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
> practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
> years.
>
> AB2TC- Knut
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
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ab2tc

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

In reply to this post by ab2tc

Hi all,

Of course this assumes that the sole transmitter on the bus obeys the rules
as well, which is to be an open collector or open drain (or relay contact to
ground). I am sorry if I omitted that point.

As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is
proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious converters
(which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious amateur).

My main point is that the amateur community should move towards following
the "standard". If all devices followed that "standard" they would all work
together and there would be no problem with one device powering another.

AB2TC - Knut

ab2tc wrote

> Hi all,
>
> I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.
>
> If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus) were to obey the rules to
> have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem
> of
> "false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
> practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
> years.
>
> AB2TC- Knut
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:

> Elecraft@.qth

>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to

> lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble

--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-2

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

73 -- Lynn

On 3/2/2018 1:43 PM, ab2tc wrote:
> My main point is that the amateur community should move towards following
> the "standard". If all devices followed that "standard" they would all work
> together and there would be no problem with one device powering another.
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

On 3/2/2018 1:48 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

Actually, what we're describing here is the LACK of a Standard -- each
company decided in isolation how to implement things like this. I serve
on the Standards Committee of Audio Engineering Society, and we develop
Standards by consensus, through a process that accepts engineering (and
sometimes applications) input from anyone who wishes to participate.
Many of our Standards took years to formulate.

The situation with ham gear is that, most likely for competitive
reasons, each company developed their way of doing things on their own.
This happens fairly often in the world of consumer products. Over a
period of nearly 20 years, I rarely saw representatives of Japanese
companies in Standards meetings, while US and EU companies and users are
represented. Indeed, I mostly remember the Japanese companies presenting
papers on their new developments.

73, Jim K9YC

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-2

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

Actually, we're talking about exactly the same thing.

I should have included <sarcasm> tags. Sorry for the omission.

On 3/2/2018 2:03 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 3/2/2018 1:48 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
>> The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
>
> Actually, what we're describing here is the LACK of a Standard -- each
> company decided in isolation how to implement things like this.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

In reply to this post by ab2tc

> As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is
> proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious
> converters (which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious
> amateur).
Yaesu's transceivers were the *first* to use BCD "band data". As such,
it should be incumbent on anyone using that interface to be electrically
compatible with Yaesu's interface (source +5/+12V for logic high, open
circuit for logic low). Even the amateur DOS based logging software
that provided "band data" on a computer LPT port duplicated that
interface.

Absent any documented standard for the interface, any product developer
who claims to support "BCD band data" should be expected to properly
emulate the Yaesu "ports" so that their receiver works with any Yaesu
transceiver and/or their transceiver properly drives any Yaesu amp
(FL-7000/Quadra).

The issue is accessory makers who are not +12V tolerant and those who
apply voltage to the BCD lines ... and transceiver makers who provide
"band data" ports that do not source +5/12V for logic high.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/2/2018 4:43 PM, ab2tc wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Of course this assumes that the sole transmitter on the bus obeys the rules
> as well, which is to be an open collector or open drain (or relay contact to
> ground). I am sorry if I omitted that point.
>
> As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is
> proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious converters
> (which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious amateur).
>
> My main point is that the amateur community should move towards following
> the "standard". If all devices followed that "standard" they would all work
> together and there would be no problem with one device powering another.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> ab2tc wrote
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.
>>
>> If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus) were to obey the rules to
>> have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem
>> of
>> "false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
>> practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
>> years.
>>
>> AB2TC- Knut
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:
>
>> Elecraft@.qth
>
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to
>
>> lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

Don Wilhelm

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

I believe that logic can quickly merge into the idea that "the first to
introduce BCD Band Data" will "set the standard". I for one do not
believe that is the best approach, and certainly not sufficient to 'set
a standard', which may have serious flaws when extended beyond that
manufacturer's realm.

The Yaesu method (I cannot call it a standard) will inter-operate with
other Yaesu gear and 3rd party gear designed to inter-operate with it,
but that does not constitute a "standard"

The "standard" for data communication has been established in the
digital world for many, many years, and pre-dates the Yaesu system.

Drivers do not source voltage (they use open collector and open drain
devices), and there is one pullup resistor at the end of the signal line
- there may be multiple receivers monitoring the signal line, but there
can be only one driver active at a time - which for a multiple driver
situation means an external source of control is necessary for gating
the drivers.
I was working with those "rules" when designing computer console
circuits for a IBM large system back in 1969, and the same principals
had been devised since the advent of IBM SLT logic modules in the late
1950s.

So if anyone wants to apply "the first guy sets the standard", I think
Yaesu was not the first, but they made the mistake of having the drivers
source voltage. That is only practical for very short signal lines and
a very limited number of receivers listening on the signal line(s).

Efforts to continue the "Yaesu method" will result in further confusion
as amateur box to box communications develops further and more and more
incorporates design principles previously applied to computer systems
and communications lines. Even the IBM terminal communications plugged
the "pullup" resistors at only one terminal (they were called line
terminators) - at the end of the communications line. That is a long
established principle that works even today if done right. What I am
saying is that Yaesu did not "do it right" and creates limitations to
expansion and the advancement of technology within the amateur community
today.

So get out the cutters and remove the collector and drain resistors from
the Yaesu drivers, and put pullup resistors only at the far end of the
lines, and you can have the Yaesu "system" without any of the problems.

There are other systems that do allow multiple drivers on the same
signalling line(s) - I2C is one example - whichever driver grabs the
signalling first gets priority is a simplified version of the operation.
Ethernet is another example, but in any of these systems, the protocol
must define which driver gets priority. That requires a bit more
sophistication than a simple driver on the communication line.

I believe the original K3 "did it right" to use open drain drivers on
the band data lines - but succumbed to the hue and cry that it did not
work with the various versions of the Yaesu system and Elecraft then
added pullup resistors to the drivers.
The result has been a bastardized "system" that in many cases requires
the addition of steering diodes and/or the removal of pullup resistors
from external devices to make it work right.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/2/2018 6:17 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>> As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is
>> proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious
>> converters (which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious
>> amateur).
> Yaesu's transceivers were the *first* to use BCD "band data". As such,
> it should be incumbent on anyone using that interface to be electrically
> compatible with Yaesu's interface (source +5/+12V for logic high, open
> circuit for logic low). Even the amateur DOS based logging software
> that provided "band data" on a computer LPT port duplicated that
> interface.
>

Cady, Fred-2

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

Right on Don.

73,

Fred KE7X

________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 5:19 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

I believe that logic can quickly merge into the idea that "the first to
introduce BCD Band Data" will "set the standard". I for one do not
believe that is the best approach, and certainly not sufficient to 'set
a standard', which may have serious flaws when extended beyond that
manufacturer's realm.

The Yaesu method (I cannot call it a standard) will inter-operate with
other Yaesu gear and 3rd party gear designed to inter-operate with it,
but that does not constitute a "standard"

The "standard" for data communication has been established in the
digital world for many, many years, and pre-dates the Yaesu system.

Drivers do not source voltage (they use open collector and open drain
devices), and there is one pullup resistor at the end of the signal line
- there may be multiple receivers monitoring the signal line, but there
can be only one driver active at a time - which for a multiple driver
situation means an external source of control is necessary for gating
the drivers.
I was working with those "rules" when designing computer console
circuits for a IBM large system back in 1969, and the same principals
had been devised since the advent of IBM SLT logic modules in the late
1950s.

So if anyone wants to apply "the first guy sets the standard", I think
Yaesu was not the first, but they made the mistake of having the drivers
source voltage. That is only practical for very short signal lines and
a very limited number of receivers listening on the signal line(s).

Efforts to continue the "Yaesu method" will result in further confusion
as amateur box to box communications develops further and more and more
incorporates design principles previously applied to computer systems
and communications lines. Even the IBM terminal communications plugged
the "pullup" resistors at only one terminal (they were called line
terminators) - at the end of the communications line. That is a long
established principle that works even today if done right. What I am
saying is that Yaesu did not "do it right" and creates limitations to
expansion and the advancement of technology within the amateur community
today.

So get out the cutters and remove the collector and drain resistors from
the Yaesu drivers, and put pullup resistors only at the far end of the
lines, and you can have the Yaesu "system" without any of the problems.

There are other systems that do allow multiple drivers on the same
signalling line(s) - I2C is one example - whichever driver grabs the
signalling first gets priority is a simplified version of the operation.
Ethernet is another example, but in any of these systems, the protocol
must define which driver gets priority. That requires a bit more
sophistication than a simple driver on the communication line.

I believe the original K3 "did it right" to use open drain drivers on
the band data lines - but succumbed to the hue and cry that it did not
work with the various versions of the Yaesu system and Elecraft then
added pullup resistors to the drivers.
The result has been a bastardized "system" that in many cases requires
the addition of steering diodes and/or the removal of pullup resistors
from external devices to make it work right.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/2/2018 6:17 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

It's great to say what should have been done, particularly when the
original design is 35+ years old (Yaesu transceiver/FL-7000). It
is not practical to make a change to all the legacy hardware so any
equipment supporting Yaesu format "Band Data" needs to be designed
to be +12V tolerant and any transceiver generating "band Data" needs
to source +12V for logic high and provide open circuit (or a weak
pull down) for logic low.

If a given piece of hardware doesn't meet those specifications, the
manufacturer clearly needs to label it as *not compatible* with the
Yaesu products.

This is not a matter of "standards" as there were none when Yaesu
designed its transceivers and amplifier. For many years, those who
built their own hardware to interface with the Yaesu rigs built to
the Yaesu specification ... and if the current crop of third party
hardware was designed to meet Yaesu's specification there would not
be an issue of incompatibility with multiple receivers connected to
the "Band Data bus".

While you may not like the approach of "first to use" setting the
"standard", that "standard" has been there for 35+ years. It's a
little late to "wish it away" particularly since Yaesu still make
transceivers and amplifiers that continue to use "voltage source =
logic high/high impedance = logic low".

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/2/2018 7:19 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> I believe that logic can quickly merge into the idea that "the first to
> introduce BCD Band Data" will "set the standard". I for one do not
> believe that is the best approach, and certainly not sufficient to 'set
> a standard', which may have serious flaws when extended beyond that
> manufacturer's realm.
>
> The Yaesu method (I cannot call it a standard) will inter-operate with
> other Yaesu gear and 3rd party gear designed to inter-operate with it,
> but that does not constitute a "standard"
>
> The "standard" for data communication has been established in the
> digital world for many, many years, and pre-dates the Yaesu system.
>
> Drivers do not source voltage (they use open collector and open drain
> devices), and there is one pullup resistor at the end of the signal line
> - there may be multiple receivers monitoring the signal line, but there
> can be only one driver active at a time - which for a multiple driver
> situation means an external source of control is necessary for gating
> the drivers.
> I was working with those "rules" when designing computer console
> circuits for a IBM large system back in 1969, and the same principals
> had been devised since the advent of IBM SLT logic modules in the late
> 1950s.
>
> So if anyone wants to apply "the first guy sets the standard", I think
> Yaesu was not the first, but they made the mistake of having the drivers
> source voltage. That is only practical for very short signal lines and
> a very limited number of receivers listening on the signal line(s).
>
> Efforts to continue the "Yaesu method" will result in further confusion
> as amateur box to box communications develops further and more and more
> incorporates design principles previously applied to computer systems
> and communications lines. Even the IBM terminal communications plugged
> the "pullup" resistors at only one terminal (they were called line
> terminators) - at the end of the communications line. That is a long
> established principle that works even today if done right. What I am
> saying is that Yaesu did not "do it right" and creates limitations to
> expansion and the advancement of technology within the amateur community
> today.
>
> So get out the cutters and remove the collector and drain resistors from
> the Yaesu drivers, and put pullup resistors only at the far end of the
> lines, and you can have the Yaesu "system" without any of the problems.
>
> There are other systems that do allow multiple drivers on the same
> signalling line(s) - I2C is one example - whichever driver grabs the
> signalling first gets priority is a simplified version of the operation.
> Ethernet is another example, but in any of these systems, the protocol
> must define which driver gets priority. That requires a bit more
> sophistication than a simple driver on the communication line.
>
> I believe the original K3 "did it right" to use open drain drivers on
> the band data lines - but succumbed to the hue and cry that it did not
> work with the various versions of the Yaesu system and Elecraft then
> added pullup resistors to the drivers.
> The result has been a bastardized "system" that in many cases requires
> the addition of steering diodes and/or the removal of pullup resistors
> from external devices to make it work right.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 3/2/2018 6:17 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>>> As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is
>>> proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious
>>> converters (which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious
>>> amateur).
>> Yaesu's transceivers were the *first* to use BCD "band data". As such,
>> it should be incumbent on anyone using that interface to be electrically
>> compatible with Yaesu's interface (source +5/+12V for logic high, open
>> circuit for logic low). Even the amateur DOS based logging software
>> that provided "band data" on a computer LPT port duplicated that
>> interface.
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]