Alternatives to PowerPoles?

[N2EY]

In a message dated 4/6/08 11:00:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> APPs are bad design, bad technology, just bad.... why?

What would you use instead? Particularly given the desire for a genderless
connector that can carry considerable current (20+ Amps)?

Not trying to argue, just wondering about alternatives. Ten Tec and some
others use Molex but they're not genderless, they're one-use, etc.

73 de Jim, N2EY


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[M0XDF]

Yes, and not very good for multiple connects or flexing - the molex  
type on my Ft-857 went intermittent.
After some deliberation, I cut it off and replaced with APP.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
When work is a pleasure, life is a joy! When work is a duty, life is
slavery. -Maxim Gorky, author (1868-1936)

On 7 Apr 2008, at 04:07, [hidden email] wrote:

> In a message dated 4/6/08 11:00:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>
>> APPs are bad design, bad technology, just bad.... why?
>
> What would you use instead? Particularly given the desire for a  
> genderless
> connector that can carry considerable current (20+ Amps)?
>
> Not trying to argue, just wondering about alternatives. Ten Tec and  
> some
> others use Molex but they're not genderless, they're one-use, etc.

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[Mike S-8]

At 11:07 PM 4/6/2008, [hidden email] wrote...

>What would you use instead? Particularly given the desire for a
>genderless
>connector that can carry considerable current (20+ Amps)?

Considering these are used for carrying polarized power signals, why do
you want/require that they be "genderless?" There's a very good reason
that wall outlets aren't hermaphroditic.

The only reasonable argument I've seen is that it allows charging
batteries without "adapters." But, given that improper charging of many
modern battery technologies can be dangerous if a specialized charger
isn't used, making it easy to connect a 13.4V, 20A regulated supply to
a 12V lithium pack doesn't seem wise.



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[N2EY]

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike S <[hidden email]>

At 11:07 PM 4/6/2008, [hidden email] wrote...

>>What would you use instead? Particularly given the desire for a
>>genderless
>>connector that can carry considerable current (20+ Amps)?

>Considering these are used for carrying polarized power signals, why
do
>you want/require that they be "genderless?"

Convenience and flexibility.

>There's a very good reason
>that wall outlets aren't hermaphroditic.

That's because they are much higher voltage, and always a source.
They're also meant to be used by people who know almost nothing about
electricity. As radio amateurs, I'd hope we'd know a little about what
we are doing. We use the same RF connectors (although gendered) for
everything from the legal limit of power down to receiver inputs; make
a mistake and the results can be very unpleasant. Is 12 volts somehow
more dangerous?

>The only reasonable argument I've seen is that it allows charging
>batteries without "adapters." But, given that improper charging of
many
>modern battery technologies can be dangerous if a specialized charger
>isn't used, making it easy to connect a 13.4V, 20A regulated supply to
>a 12V lithium pack doesn't seem wise.

The problem is that with adapters it's just as easy to make such
mistakes. If you adopt gendered connectors, you'll get in the habit of
having adapters everywhere, and there goes the advantage.
.
There's also the advantage of a universal standard - all cable ends the
same; you never have the wrong end, multioutlet systems are all the
same.

---

And there's still the original question: what would you use instead? If
there were a gendered PowerPole configuration, would that solve the
problem?

73 de Jim, N2EY






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[Charly]

The major 13vdc ham radio equipment input power connector is the 4 pin Molex.  This connector has proven in thousands of uses to be adequate to the voltage, the current, and the physical demands of this utilization.  It is the de facto standard on K, I, and Y radios (for the vast majority) and the single only connector (other than the PL259-SO etc) that all three mfgs. amazingly agree on, making at least this matter so much easier for hams with different equipment mfgs.The four pins are often all used to increase the power handling capacity of the two-wire application.  However, theMolex in all its pin configurations has a number of drawbacks.... -one time installation (unless the use of a special tool to retract the installed pins is used), i.e., not reusable,-lack of strain relief.-lack of positive attachment fixture (i.e., it could be accidentaly pulled out rather easily).Good points are resistance to crush (step on), can stand multiple plug in and out, is very well keyed and can take solder with care.  It is reasonably available, but not in India, for example.  It does not need glue.  Formerly, some mfgs. used a two pin mic connector which likely had the power handling ok, took soldering well altho the pins are close together, and had both a great positive attachment (screw on) and a fairly good strain relief.  Drawback was possible confusion of thisconnector with a mic.The Cinch Jones is a good alternative because it comes in many pin configurations, including two, is very well keyed, takes soldering very well, has a good strain relief, is vy reusable, is medium resistant to crush, can be pulled out too easily, is widely available (altho its uses are dropping, restricting its availability), The size of the two-pin version is nearly the same as the 4 pin Molex.  The A Power Poles are the weakest of this line up of connectors and a very strange choice for ham radio applications.Charles [hidden email]   > To: [hidden email]> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 09:14:15 -0400> From: [hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Alternatives to PowerPoles?> CC: [hidden email]> > -----Original Message-----> From: Mike S <[hidden email]>> > At 11:07 PM 4/6/2008, [hidden email] wrote...> > >>What would you use instead? Particularly given the desire for a> >>genderless> >>connector that can carry considerable current (20+ Amps)?> > >Considering these are used for carrying polarized power signals, why > do> >you want/require that they be "genderless?"> > Convenience and flexibility.> > >There's a very good reason> >that wall outlets aren't hermaphroditic.> > That's because they are much higher voltage, and always a source. > They're also meant to be used by people who know almost nothing about > electricity. As radio amateurs, I'd hope we'd know a little about what > we are doing. We use the same RF connectors (although gendered) for > everything from the legal limit of power down to receiver inputs; make > a mistake and the results can be very unpleasant. Is 12 volts somehow > more dangerous?> > >The only reasonable argument I've seen is that it allows charging> >batteries without "adapters." But, given that improper charging of > many> >modern battery technologies can be dangerous if a specialized charger> >isn't used, making it easy to connect a 13.4V, 20A regulated supply to> >a 12V lithium pack doesn't seem wise.> > The problem is that with adapters it's just as easy to make such > mistakes. If you adopt gendered connectors, you'll get in the habit of > having adapters everywhere, and there goes the advantage.> .> There's also the advantage of a universal standard - all cable ends the > same; you never have the wrong end, multioutlet systems are all the > same.> > ---> > And there's still the original question: what would you use instead? If > there were a gendered PowerPole configuration, would that solve the > problem?> > 73 de Jim, N2EY> > > > > > > _______________________________________________> Elecraft mailing list> Post to: [hidden email]> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):>  http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft    > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com_______________________________________________
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[Mike S-8]

At 09:14 AM 4/7/2008, [hidden email] wrote...
>>Considering these are used for carrying polarized power signals, why
>>do you want/require that they be "genderless?"
>
>Convenience and flexibility.

That's a non-response, since it implies that alternatives aren't. I
believe that most hams find UHF and BNC connectors to be convenient and
flexible, and they're gendered. Given all the argument around crimp vs.
solder on powerpoles, I might grant you flexibility, but not
convenience :-)

>  As radio amateurs, I'd hope we'd know a little about what we are
> doing.

That's a very poor assumption, given the types of questions I've heard
asked by licensees.

>We use the same RF connectors (although gendered) for everything from
>the legal limit of power down to receiver inputs; make a mistake and
>the results can be very unpleasant. Is 12 volts somehow more dangerous?

You've apparently never seen the results of a lithium battery
explosion/fire. It's more than "unpleasant."

>The problem is that with adapters it's just as easy to make such
>mistakes.

No, and saying that doesn't make it true. It should be obviously clear
that a system which allows anything to plug into anything else is also
the easiest one to make a mistake with.

>There's also the advantage of a universal standard

It's not a universal standard. At best, it's a standard for one group
in one country within ham radio (ARES/RACES). It's not used by the big
3, and given the number of questions here from people who are new to
the connectors, it's quite far from a standard in the general ham
community.

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[w7aqk]

I'm struggling a bit to understand your preference to the
Molex connectors.  I find them troublesome from the
standpoint of making your own connectors as opposed to the
APP's.  By the way, I think the "standard" Molex seems to be
the 6 pin rather than the 4 pin--at least of late.  My Icom
and Kenwood rigs use the 6 pin, and the same pinout pattern.
The Molex connectors are nice in that they are gendered, and
they lock.  I certainly like that.  But I question that they
are more durable.  I just stepped on an APP (with my 200
plus pounds), and nothing happened--it's still fine.

My biggest concern with APP's is that they don't lock
together.  It hasn't been a problem, but it just seems it
could be.  They do make some plastic accessory clamps to
hold two connections together--guess I should try those.

But for me, it's all about how easy it is to put together a
connection, and the APP's seem the easiest right now by far.
However, I crimp, which you (and several others) don't like.
But I concluded from the arguments back and forth about
soldering vs. crimping that soldering was just fine for most
uses since we aren't using them in high stress situations
more often than not.  But I did not conclude that soldering
was better!  It was just that most seemed to feel it was
only important if you were dealing with issues like jet
plane vibrations, etc.  I'll certainly buy that.  But I
think you still have to draw the ultimate conclusion from
that argument that crimping is better, but not necessary!
Maybe most would agree with that, and I would too.

So, I would conclude that the popularity of APP's is
substantially because they are fast and easy, yet effective.
They are fastest if you crimp.  It would be nice, however,
if they locked together, and maybe it would be better if
they were gendered.  Also, many folks want to standardize
their connections.  That too is more easily done using
APP's.

APP's are not the ultimate answer--not by a long shot.  But
they do serve a good purpose for many.  If that wasn't true,
people wouldn't be using them so much.  If you don't like
them, don't use them.  If you don't like the fact that the
K3 has them, make a pigtail adapter, and then use what you
want.  That's certainly easy enough to do.

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Harpole" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:51 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Alternatives to PowerPoles?



The major 13vdc ham radio equipment input power connector is
the 4 pin Molex.  This connector has proven in thousands of
uses to be adequate to the voltage, the current, and the
physical demands of this utilization.  It is the de facto
standard on K, I, and Y radios (for the vast majority) and
the single only connector (other than the PL259-SO etc) that
all three mfgs. amazingly agree on, making at least this
matter so much easier for hams with different equipment
mfgs.The four pins are often all used to increase the power
handling capacity of the two-wire application.  However,
theMolex in all its pin configurations has a number of
drawbacks.... -one time installation (unless the use of a
special tool to retract the installed pins is used), i.e.,
not reusable,-lack of strain relief.-lack of positive
attachment fixture (i.e., it could be accidentaly pulled out
rather easily).Good points are resistance to crush (step
on), can stand multiple plug in and out, is very well keyed
and can take solder with care.  It is reasonably available,
but not in India, for example.  It does not need glue.
Formerly, some mfgs. used a two pin mic connector which
likely had the power handling ok, took soldering well altho
the pins are close together, and had both a great positive
attachment (screw on) and a fairly good strain relief.
Drawback was possible confusion of thisconnector with a
mic.The Cinch Jones is a good alternative because it comes
in many pin configurations, including two, is very well
keyed, takes soldering very well, has a good strain relief,
is vy reusable, is medium resistant to crush, can be pulled
out too easily, is widely available (altho its uses are
dropping, restricting its availability), The size of the
two-pin version is nearly the same as the 4 pin Molex.  The
A Power Poles are the weakest of this line up of connectors
and a very strange choice for ham radio applications.Charles
[hidden email]   >

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[w5tvw]

Some time ago, I had standardized on the standard size 4 pin flat Molex
connector.  On low drain (less than 10 amps peak) I just used two pins, 1
and 4.  For high drain 100 watt rigs, I used all 4 pins, 1,2 in parallel, 3
and 4 in parallel.  This worked fairly well and everything I had used these.
The Anderson connectors seemed much more compact and I have had no troubles
except trying to mate Tyco "AMP" copies with the APP connectors.  I found
the Tyco stuff's quality was very poor compared with Anderson.  I have had
NO troubles with the roll-pins keeping the connectors from sliding apart.  I
usually crimp mine using a "universal" AMP hand tool I've had for years.
You have to be careful after crimping and pay attention that the tongue of
the connector isn't bent up or down too much to allow the spring in the body
of the connector to function properly.

I've converted everything to them and they have worked well for me.

73 to all,

Sandy W5TVW
----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Alternatives to PowerPoles?

> In a message dated 4/6/08 11:00:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>
>> APPs are bad design, bad technology, just bad.... why?
>
> What would you use instead? Particularly given the desire for a genderless
> connector that can carry considerable current (20+ Amps)?
>
> Not trying to argue, just wondering about alternatives. Ten Tec and some
> others use Molex but they're not genderless, they're one-use, etc.
>
> 73 de Jim, N2EY
>
>
> **************
> Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL
> Travel Guides.
>
> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
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>

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

I thought we ended this thread :-) (It keeps popping up under new
subject lines..)

Lets end this thread for now.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
List Moderator
-----


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[KENT TRIMBLE]

While demonstrating two early K3s at the Lebanon Hamfest last October,
TWICE I tripped on the power cords behind the table.  TWICE, I said "oh
s_ _ _t!"  TWICE I said,  "I'll never do that again."  TWICE, I thanked
God for telling Elecraft to use APPs.  TWICE, I was damn glad they
weren't locked together.

K9ZTV



Someone wrote:
> My biggest concern with APP's is that they don't lock together.
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[George Victor-2]

"While demonstrating two early K3s at the Lebanon Hamfest last
October, TWICE I tripped on the power cords behind the table.  TWICE,
I said "oh s_ _ _t!"  TWICE I said,  "I'll never do that again."
TWICE, I thanked God for telling Elecraft to use APPs.  TWICE, I was
damn glad they weren't locked together.
K9ZTV"

Was the purpose of this post to tell the group that APP's have a
safety feature, OR,  to inform the group that Elecraft is using APP's
because of K9ZTV?
;)
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[Phil Kane-2]

On 4/7/2008 6:51 AM, Charles Harpole wrote:

> The major 13vdc ham radio equipment input power connector is the 4
> pin Molex.  This connector has proven in thousands of uses to be
> adequate to the voltage, the current, and the physical demands of
> this utilization.  It is the de facto standard on K, I, and Y radios

Gee, Charles, I just looked at my ICOM, Kenwood, Elecraft, Ten-Tec, AEA,
Uniden, and Alinco equipment here (I don't "do" Yaesu) and on none of
them do I find any "4 pin Molex".

De facto was a variety of connectors (2 pin Molex, T-connectors, others)
on the power cables, all of which had "pigtails" of about 6 inches and
APP connectors installed by me.  Of course I have the proper tools and
experience to do them after several hundred successful installs.

---
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402
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[Alan Biocca]

1) Anderson PowerPoles can be configured to be gendered, though the
"Ham Radio Standard" configuration did not choose to do this.

2) I have used the Molex since Heathkit days. Lots of them. They are
just plain unreliable in the longer term.

3) PowerPoles can easily be locked together when desired, but having
them pop apart easily is often preferred. It is up to the user this
way.

4) PowerPoles are not ideal, but they are the best thing going at this
time in the cost and performance category.

Show us better alternatives.. 12V 30A rated, low cost, low loss,
polarity protected, physically small, cable and chassis mount, readily
available, rated for lots of connect/disconnect cycles, easy to
install and plug/unplug.

-- Alan, wb6zqz
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[George Marr]

Alan most Molex connectors are designed for price. They are ok for 15 to 25
in/and out connections. You need a mil spec connector to hack the job long
term. No connector lasts forever unless you never touch them. Let me put it
more accurately, if you pay less than ten bucks for the connector, plan on
replacing it in the long haul. Connectors and sockets are a large part of
the cost of any manufactured project
George Marr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Biocca" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Alternatives to PowerPoles?

> 1) Anderson PowerPoles can be configured to be gendered, though the
> "Ham Radio Standard" configuration did not choose to do this.
>
> 2) I have used the Molex since Heathkit days. Lots of them. They are
> just plain unreliable in the longer term.
>
> 3) PowerPoles can easily be locked together when desired, but having
> them pop apart easily is often preferred. It is up to the user this
> way.
>
> 4) PowerPoles are not ideal, but they are the best thing going at this
> time in the cost and performance category.
>
> Show us better alternatives.. 12V 30A rated, low cost, low loss,
> polarity protected, physically small, cable and chassis mount, readily
> available, rated for lots of connect/disconnect cycles, easy to
> install and plug/unplug.
>
> -- Alan, wb6zqz
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