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Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

> 4) Features like built in SO2R

Expert has serious issues with SO2R - limitation to a single multi-band
antenna on the SO2R port, inability to externally control which rig has
the 'run' antennas vs. which is limited to the SO2R antenna and no way
to control separate antennas for each radio.

> P.S. I have used my K3 with Expert 1K-FA for 6 years and now use my
> KX3 and K3 with Expert 1.3K-FA (5W in 1kW out).

It would be better if there was a 6 dB pad (or 6 dB of NFB) between the
T/R switch and amplifier so you ran the K3 at 20W for 1 KW output. The
entire system would be much cleaner - lower IMD, etc.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-04-27 1:10 PM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

> IMHO this is apple/orange comparison.
>
> 1) All of the Expert amps are solid state AND automatic and this
> comparison does not account for that.
> 2) USD/WATT is more informative then USD/dB_over_100W. USD/dB_of_gain
> would be...
> 3) If weight of the amp is put into the table then Expert will be clear
> winner on all accounts.
> 4) Features like built in SO2R and ability to operate on any mains
> voltage from 100V to 260V are not found in any other amp but sure add a
> lot value for money.
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>
> P.S. I have used my K3 with Expert 1K-FA for 6 years and now use my KX3
> and K3 with Expert 1.3K-FA (5W in 1kW out). Will anybody try to persuade
> me that there is better value for money then Expert.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 2:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download
>
>
>> On Sat,4/25/2015 7:35 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
>>> Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was so cost effective.
>>> Sure is a royal PITA to use, though. I'll give it away to someone
>>> local who will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping the beast.
>>
>> I modified the spreadsheet a bit and re-sorted it. First, since we
>> here in the US are permitted only 1,500W, I set max power for those
>> amps with higher power ratings to that value. Second, just as Nick has
>> included his used Alpha 99, I added my used Ten Tec Titan 425s.
>>
>> k9yc.com/PwrAmpdB.png
>>
>> There are many features and properties of power amps that go far
>> beyond pure dB per dollar. some examples:
>>
>> The ACOM 1010 is a reasonably compact competitor to the KPA500, but it
>> doesn't cover 6M. I bought one used from K6SRZ (to have another amp
>> for CQP), who bought a KPA500 just to get 6M. Also, my occupied
>> bandwidth tests show that the KPA500 is a bit cleaner than that ACOM
>> 1010. And the 1010 is a single-voltage amp. It must be rewired to
>> change it. The KPA500 can be switched by removing, rotating, and
>> reinserting the fuse block built into the power plug.
>>
>> The ACOM 1000 does cover 6M. Both it and the 1010 have manual antenna
>> tuners built in. Some of these amplifiers have built-in tuners, some
>> of those tuners are automatic or have memories. Some of these amps are
>> much better built than others. My Ten Tec Titans use high quality
>> vacuum relays with logic to prevent hot-switching, as do the Alphas.
>> The Ameritron amps I've seen use much cheaper open-frame relays, so
>> their switching is much slower.
>>
>> My Titans are quite clean -- P3 measurements of both the KPA500 and
>> the Titan look exactly like the K3 at the drive level required for
>> rated power. But the Titans, like the lower cost ACOMs, are "manual
>> everything.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

Administrator

Folks, let's end the thread at this time.

It is exceeding our single topic posting limit and we'd like to limit topic overload for other readers.

73,

Eric
List moderator
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> > 4) Features like built in SO2R
>
> Expert has serious issues with SO2R - limitation to a single multi-band
> antenna on the SO2R port, inability to externally control which rig has
> the 'run' antennas vs. which is limited to the SO2R antenna and no way
> to control separate antennas for each radio.
>

Igor Sokolov-2

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

> Expert has serious issues with SO2R - limitation to a single multi-band
> antenna on the SO2R port, inability to externally control which rig has
> the 'run' antennas vs. which is limited to the SO2R antenna and no way
> to control separate antennas for each radio.

Yes, it is somewhat limited but still usable and much better then nothing. I
have used it with multiband 80 through 10 m beam and a set of stacks for
all bands as main antennas. Works very well and covers 90% of my needs.

>
>> P.S. I have used my K3 with Expert 1K-FA for 6 years and now use my
>> KX3 and K3 with Expert 1.3K-FA (5W in 1kW out).
>
> It would be better if there was a 6 dB pad (or 6 dB of NFB) between the
> T/R switch and amplifier so you ran the K3 at 20W for 1 KW output. The
> entire system would be much cleaner - lower IMD, etc.

There is a pad built in but it can be bypassed by user if needed.

73, Igor UA9CDC

> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-04-27 1:10 PM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
>> IMHO this is apple/orange comparison.
>>
>> 1) All of the Expert amps are solid state AND automatic and this
>> comparison does not account for that.
>> 2) USD/WATT is more informative then USD/dB_over_100W. USD/dB_of_gain
>> would be...
>> 3) If weight of the amp is put into the table then Expert will be clear
>> winner on all accounts.
>> 4) Features like built in SO2R and ability to operate on any mains
>> voltage from 100V to 260V are not found in any other amp but sure add a
>> lot value for money.
>>
>> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>>
>> P.S. I have used my K3 with Expert 1K-FA for 6 years and now use my KX3
>> and K3 with Expert 1.3K-FA (5W in 1kW out). Will anybody try to persuade
>> me that there is better value for money then Expert.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown"
>> <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 2:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download
>>
>>
>>> On Sat,4/25/2015 7:35 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
>>>> Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was so cost effective.
>>>> Sure is a royal PITA to use, though. I'll give it away to someone
>>>> local who will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping the beast.
>>>
>>> I modified the spreadsheet a bit and re-sorted it. First, since we
>>> here in the US are permitted only 1,500W, I set max power for those
>>> amps with higher power ratings to that value. Second, just as Nick has
>>> included his used Alpha 99, I added my used Ten Tec Titan 425s.
>>>
>>> k9yc.com/PwrAmpdB.png
>>>
>>> There are many features and properties of power amps that go far
>>> beyond pure dB per dollar. some examples:
>>>
>>> The ACOM 1010 is a reasonably compact competitor to the KPA500, but it
>>> doesn't cover 6M. I bought one used from K6SRZ (to have another amp
>>> for CQP), who bought a KPA500 just to get 6M. Also, my occupied
>>> bandwidth tests show that the KPA500 is a bit cleaner than that ACOM
>>> 1010. And the 1010 is a single-voltage amp. It must be rewired to
>>> change it. The KPA500 can be switched by removing, rotating, and
>>> reinserting the fuse block built into the power plug.
>>>
>>> The ACOM 1000 does cover 6M. Both it and the 1010 have manual antenna
>>> tuners built in. Some of these amplifiers have built-in tuners, some
>>> of those tuners are automatic or have memories. Some of these amps are
>>> much better built than others. My Ten Tec Titans use high quality
>>> vacuum relays with logic to prevent hot-switching, as do the Alphas.
>>> The Ameritron amps I've seen use much cheaper open-frame relays, so
>>> their switching is much slower.
>>>
>>> My Titans are quite clean -- P3 measurements of both the KPA500 and
>>> the Titan look exactly like the K3 at the drive level required for
>>> rated power. But the Titans, like the lower cost ACOMs, are "manual
>>> everything.
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bob Naumann W5OV

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Just to clarify a couple of things: the Acom amplifiers *do not* have
antenna tuners built-in.

They merely use a traditional tuned final design that has the ability to
match into a moderate range of impedances. This can be up to a 3:1 SWR in
certain limited circumstances (less on 160m).

If you have resonant antennas, you'll be just fine - even at the extremes of
75/80m in many cases. If you have a very narrow band antenna, not so much.

The Acoms have no more of an "antenna tuner" than did an SB-220 or a 30L1
for example.

Also, aside from the new Solid State Acom 600S (with a switching power
supply), all of the Acom amplifiers use traditional linear power supplies
with multiple taps on the primary which allows using them on 120 to 240v,
single phase.

Needless to say, using them on 240v is best for numerous reasons.

73,

Bob W5OV

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim
Brown
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 5:35 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

On Sat,4/25/2015 7:35 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was so cost effective.
> Sure is a royal PITA to use, though. I'll give it away to someone
> local who will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping the beast.

I modified the spreadsheet a bit and re-sorted it. First, since we here
in the US are permitted only 1,500W, I set max power for those amps with
higher power ratings to that value. Second, just as Nick has included
his used Alpha 99, I added my used Ten Tec Titan 425s.

k9yc.com/PwrAmpdB.png

There are many features and properties of power amps that go far beyond
pure dB per dollar. some examples:

The ACOM 1010 is a reasonably compact competitor to the KPA500, but it
doesn't cover 6M. I bought one used from K6SRZ (to have another amp for
CQP), who bought a KPA500 just to get 6M. Also, my occupied bandwidth
tests show that the KPA500 is a bit cleaner than that ACOM 1010. And the
1010 is a single-voltage amp. It must be rewired to change it. The
KPA500 can be switched by removing, rotating, and reinserting the fuse
block built into the power plug.

The ACOM 1000 does cover 6M. Both it and the 1010 have manual antenna
tuners built in. Some of these amplifiers have built-in tuners, some of
those tuners are automatic or have memories. Some of these amps are much
better built than others. My Ten Tec Titans use high quality vacuum
relays with logic to prevent hot-switching, as do the Alphas. The
Ameritron amps I've seen use much cheaper open-frame relays, so their
switching is much slower.

My Titans are quite clean -- P3 measurements of both the KPA500 and the
Titan look exactly like the K3 at the drive level required for rated
power. But the Titans, like the lower cost ACOMs, are "manual everything.

73, Jim K9YC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Mike Harris-9

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

Resonance doesn't mean 50 ohm.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 28/04/2015 08:02, Bob Naumann wrote:

> Just to clarify a couple of things: the Acom amplifiers *do not* have
> antenna tuners built-in.
>
> They merely use a traditional tuned final design that has the ability to
> match into a moderate range of impedances. This can be up to a 3:1 SWR in
> certain limited circumstances (less on 160m).
>
> If you have resonant antennas, you'll be just fine - even at the extremes of
> 75/80m in many cases. If you have a very narrow band antenna, not so much.
>
> The Acoms have no more of an "antenna tuner" than did an SB-220 or a 30L1
> for example.
>
> Also, aside from the new Solid State Acom 600S (with a switching power
> supply), all of the Acom amplifiers use traditional linear power supplies
> with multiple taps on the primary which allows using them on 120 to 240v,
> single phase.
>
> Needless to say, using them on 240v is best for numerous reasons.
>
> 73,
>
> Bob W5OV