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Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

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David A. Belsley

Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell,
does one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you
can't put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is
pretty low. Can one couple them to an antenna?

thanks,

dave belsley, w1euy

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Robert-223

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

Dave my house has aluminum siding and my atomic clocks work just fine.
There are some areas in North America where the signal may not be strong
enough. Anothing thing you might try is to wind a coil around the clock in
behind and run an open lead so that there is coupling to the clock antenna
and more capture area. It should not take much. Note you're not connecting
the coil to the antenna but allowing the coil to be in proximity to it.

Robert VE3RPF

----- Original Message -----
From: "David A. Belsley" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 11:03 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

> Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell, does
> one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you can't
> put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is pretty low.
> Can one couple them to an antenna?
>
> thanks,
>
> dave belsley, w1euy
>
> _______________________________________________
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N2EY

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by David A. Belsley

In a message dated 1/8/05 11:04:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, [hidden email]
writes:

> I believe WWVB is on 80KHz,

60 kHz.

--

Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site? I was
there circa 1992.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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Augie "Gus" Hansen

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

On 1/8/05 9:30 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site? I was
> there circa 1992.

My daughter is a student at Colorado State Univ. in Fort Collins. Once in a
while when on trips to the school from Denver I make side trips to one or
two other important places: The impressive antenna farm and transmitters of
WWV, and the Budweiser Brewery for some samples of King of beers. Life is
good!

73,
Gus Hansen
KB0YH

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Stephen W. Kercel

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by David A. Belsley

Dave:

From the 1 callsign, I expect that you are located in New England. If so,
you're on the ragged edge of the normal coverage of WWVB. It is likely that
the location is giving you as much trouble as the metal siding.

Despite my 4 callsign, I am in New England (I live in Maine), and although
my house is not metal-sided, my atomic clock (one of those solar powered
MFJs with the big numbers) is located in the basement. What I have found is
that the sync indication comes and goes. It often takes several days for
the clock receiver to sync with WWVB. It will hold sync for a week or so at
a time, but it occasionally drops out. However, I am in synch more often
than not.

The resulting time reading is surely accurate enough for most ham purposes.
When you lose sync after having acquired it, the cock loses accuracy, but
very slowly. When I listen to the NCDXF/IARU beacons, they are always start
at the beginning of the second as indicated on my atomic clock even if it
has temporarily lost sync.

Personally, I would not recommend trying to modify the clock. In any case,
before you start performing surgery on your clock, I offer a radical
suggestion. Put the clock up in whatever position you want it to be for
your ham operations, and just leave it. Do so for about a week. I suspect
that there's enough signal leaking in through the door and window openings
that the clock receiver will eventually (on the order of days) find the
sync signal.

If you cannot get it to come into sync within a week, then you probably do
need an outdoor antenna. I'm sure that many participants in this reflector
could come up with a practical way to build a 60 kHz external antenna and
hook it to your clock. If I were doing it, I would look for one of the
commercially made antennas that are designed for the time servers that some
computer networks use.

73,

Steve
AA4AK

At 11:03 PM 1/8/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell, does
>one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you can't
>put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is pretty
>low. Can one couple them to an antenna?
>
>thanks,
>
>dave belsley, w1euy
>
>_______________________________________________
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rrennard

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by David A. Belsley

Why not just use a cheap GPS receiver instead of a WWVB receiver. It should
work anywhere in the world, and give time keeping accuracy better than 1
microsecond relative to UTC. Most of the time location accuracy is around
10-30 meters, so equivalently the time error at a GPS receiver is 35 to 105
nanoseconds or so relative to GPS time that is maintained to within 100
nanoseconds of UTC. If you want to see the past week's relative error, try
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpstt.html.

The Sprint PCS and Verizon networks, and probably others, are synchronized
to GPS as well, but I have no source for the time keeping accuracy produced
by your connected wireless phone.

Bob Rennard, N7WY
USAF GPS Program Office class of 1978

----- Original Message -----
From: "David A. Belsley" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:03 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

> Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell,
> does one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you
> can't put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is
> pretty low. Can one couple them to an antenna?
>
> thanks,
>
> dave belsley, w1euy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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Jim Wiley-2

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

Bob -

I notice that you were associated closely with the GPS system at one time.

Do you know of a source for a GPS clock - that is to say, a clock only,
with a fairly large digital display, preferably 24 hours, settable lo
local or GMT. The GPS positioning function would not be needed.
Application: Hamshack main clock.

I have one of the Heath GC-1000 "Most accurate clock" combination (HF)
WWV / WWVH receiver and clock, which works well, but someday it will
croak. When it does, parts are likely to be hard to obtain, and having
a GPS driven system will eliminate the necessity for an outside HF
antenna (the whip is inadequate up this way).

73

- Jim, KL7CC

Robert Rennard wrote:

>Why not just use a cheap GPS receiver instead of a WWVB receiver. It should
>work anywhere in the world, and give time keeping accuracy better than 1
>microsecond relative to UTC. Most of the time location accuracy is around
>10-30 meters, so equivalently the time error at a GPS receiver is 35 to 105
>nanoseconds or so relative to GPS time that is maintained to within 100
>nanoseconds of UTC. If you want to see the past week's relative error, try
>http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpstt.html.
>
>The Sprint PCS and Verizon networks, and probably others, are synchronized
>to GPS as well, but I have no source for the time keeping accuracy produced
>by your connected wireless phone.
>
>Bob Rennard, N7WY
>USAF GPS Program Office class of 1978
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David A. Belsley" <[hidden email]>
>To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:03 PM
>Subject: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
>
>
>
>
>>Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell,
>>does one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you
>>can't put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is
>>pretty low. Can one couple them to an antenna?
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>dave belsley, w1euy
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Post to: [hidden email]
>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>

Charles Greene

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by rrennard

Bob,

The "cheapest" GPS receiver I ever bought costs $100 compared to the > $25
for the WWV clock. That was a couple of years ago, and the cost of both
has come down. That's the why.

Chas

At 12:34 AM 1/9/2005, Robert Rennard wrote:

Rod N0RC

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by N2EY

All,

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

>
> Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site?
> I was
> there circa 1992.

A virtual tour can be had at:

http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm

--
73, Rod N0RC

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Rod N0RC

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by Augie "Gus" Hansen

Gus et.al.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Augie Hansen" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

...
> WWV, and the Budweiser Brewery for some samples of King of beers. Life
> is
> good!
...

Better still is Coopersmiths in Old Town,
http://www.coopersmithspub.com/info.html
and/or the New Belgium brewery. http://www.newbelgium.com/brewtour.asp

Life is better! :-)

--
73, Rod N0RC

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John Lonigro

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by Charles Greene

A GPS receiver inside an aluminum-sided house may also have some
trouble. Mine, which has no external antenna, has trouble picking up
satellites in my (brick-sided) house and in my (metal-sided) car, other
than on the dashboard near the windshield. If I ever get lost in my
basement, the GPS receiver won't help (hi). My cell phone has much
better coverage, but I'd need a magnifying glass to read the time from
that display.

John AA0VE

>
> At 12:34 AM 1/9/2005, Robert Rennard wrote:
>
>> Why not just use a cheap GPS receiver instead of a WWVB receiver. It
>> should
>> work anywhere in the world, and give time keeping accuracy better than 1
>> microsecond relative to UTC.
>
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dlajr

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by Jim Wiley-2

I was wanting a Nixie tube clock (either kit or assembled). I have been
using the search terms (Nixie clock) on EBay for a few months. A fellow
there has been offering a Nixie clock with a built-in GPS receiver, and with
an external GPS antenna. If I remember correctly, it was a little pricey,
but I am still tempted!

Dan Allen
KB4ZVM
K2 S/N 1757

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Wiley" <[hidden email]>
To: "Robert Rennard" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

> Bob -
>
>
> I notice that you were associated closely with the GPS system at one time.
>
>
> Do you know of a source for a GPS clock - that is to say, a clock only,
> with a fairly large digital display, preferably 24 hours, settable lo
> local or GMT. The GPS positioning function would not be needed.
> Application: Hamshack main clock.

srife

RE: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

To bad they don't make one that you can interface your existing GPS
receiver to.

Stan Rife
W5EWA
Houston, TX
K2 S/N 4216

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Allen
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

I was wanting a Nixie tube clock (either kit or assembled). I have been
using the search terms (Nixie clock) on EBay for a few months. A fellow
there has been offering a Nixie clock with a built-in GPS receiver, and with

an external GPS antenna. If I remember correctly, it was a little pricey,
but I am still tempted!

Dan Allen
KB4ZVM
K2 S/N 1757

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Douglas Westover

Re: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by N2EY

Several years ago I had the opportunity to visit the WWVH site on
Kaua'i. I drove into the site, found the office, went in and there was
NO ONE there. Oh, well...I signed the visitor log and scanned through
it, noticing the large number of hams who had visited. I even recognized
some of the calls.

After 15 minutes with no sign of life, I was getting ready to leave, when
in walks the chief engineer decked out in his climbing gear. He had been
up on the 2.5 MHz vertical dipole doing some maintenance, saw me
drive in and climbed down to greet me! It turns out there is only one
person on the site at any one time and it's not manned at night or on
weekends. There are alarms on each of the transmitters which will
shut them down if there are any problems and dial the home of
one of the site operators.

So then I got the full 25cent tour. The transmitters are sort of ho-hum,
just off the shelf commercial 10kW rigs of various manufacture. There
might be a 20kW unit but I don't remember. What was of real interest
was the "frequency/time" room. A real ham shack!! Lots of 6' racks
with a variety of LMBs hanging by their power leads or coax. Old
pieces of gear gathering dust in a corner, a work bench with pieces
of gear and PC boards in various states of repair. All of the frequency
and time standards.

Any way, a very interesting place. The engineer wasn't a ham but was
used to dealing with the strange breed and was most gracious. I was
there for over an hour and I think he was just happy to have someone to
talk to.

Doug
W6JD

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

> In a message dated 1/8/05 11:04:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[hidden email]

> writes:
>
>
> > I believe WWVB is on 80KHz,
>
> 60 kHz.
>
> --
>
> Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site? I

was

> there circa 1992.
>
> 73 de Jim, N2EY
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Ron D'Eau Claire-2

RE: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by Charles Greene

Charles wrote:

The "cheapest" GPS receiver I ever bought costs $100 compared to the > $25
for the WWV clock. That was a couple of years ago, and the cost of both
has come down. That's the why.
-------------------------------------

I thought atomic clocks were desired for their "gee whiz" interest, not
because someone usually needs to know what time it is to the nearest
millisecond.

For logging or station activities, I've never kept time closer than the
current minute. That means my $6 Radio Shack digital clock that I chose
because it was on sale and provides a 24-hour time format is perfect. It
stays accurate to within one or two seconds a month. Setting it twice a year
against WWV at 5 or 10 MHz means the contact times in my in my station log
are always exactly right.

And, for $6 if I ever lose it I'll not cry... Too much...

I'm serious about the value of the "gee whiz" factor as in, "Gee whiz! Look
at that!"

After all, isn't that why we're all hams and why we build gear? Let's not
insist on diluting the sheer enjoyment of the "Gee whiz" response with petty
practicality...

Ron AC7AC

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Ed Parish K1EP

RE: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

For some digital modes, you have to know the time to the second or close to it, as some digital sequences are 15 or 30 seconds long. Even for typical SHF terrestrial work, the common adage is "You call on the odd, I call on the even." There are 60 and 30 second sequences on that too I believe. The cheapo atomic clocks are novelties at best. Here in NE, they don't always lock in WWV reliably. And, if anyone wants, I will send them a picture I took of two identical model atomic clocks, both showing that they are "locked" and showing different times (nothing doctored in the picture, time zones the same, etc.).

You are better off buying a GPS if you want reliable time. Of course, just buy a used computer for <$100 and download a free NTP client and then you have a rather accurate clock with a huge display.

At 1/9/2005 03:34 PM, you wrote:

>Charles wrote:
>
>The "cheapest" GPS receiver I ever bought costs $100 compared to the > $25
>for the WWV clock. That was a couple of years ago, and the cost of both
>has come down. That's the why.
>-------------------------------------
>
>I thought atomic clocks were desired for their "gee whiz" interest, not
>because someone usually needs to know what time it is to the nearest
>millisecond.
>
>For logging or station activities, I've never kept time closer than the
>current minute. That means my $6 Radio Shack digital clock that I chose
>because it was on sale and provides a 24-hour time format is perfect. It
>stays accurate to within one or two seconds a month. Setting it twice a year
>against WWV at 5 or 10 MHz means the contact times in my in my station log
>are always exactly right.
>
>And, for $6 if I ever lose it I'll not cry... Too much...
>
>I'm serious about the value of the "gee whiz" factor as in, "Gee whiz! Look
>at that!"
>
>After all, isn't that why we're all hams and why we build gear? Let's not
>insist on diluting the sheer enjoyment of the "Gee whiz" response with petty
>practicality...
>
>Ron AC7AC
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
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>
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srife

RE: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2

Well, there are times when you need fairly accurate time. When
tracking satellites across the sky for the digital modes, or the weather
sats. Your tracking software has to be pretty close to the correct time to
keep up with the position of the satellites. I have a controller that moves
the rotators automatically and it's really neat to sit back and watch it
work. Seeing the sat signal near a constant S-meter reading at all times
while the satellite is in view is nice when you are busy on the keyboard
transferring files or mail.

Stan Rife
W5EWA
Houston, TX
K2 S/N 4216

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 2:34 PM
To: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

I thought atomic clocks were desired for their "gee whiz" interest, not
because someone usually needs to know what time it is to the nearest
millisecond.

For logging or station activities, I've never kept time closer than the
current minute. That means my $6 Radio Shack digital clock that I chose
because it was on sale and provides a 24-hour time format is perfect. It
stays accurate to within one or two seconds a month. Setting it twice a year
against WWV at 5 or 10 MHz means the contact times in my in my station log
are always exactly right.

And, for $6 if I ever lose it I'll not cry... Too much...

I'm serious about the value of the "gee whiz" factor as in, "Gee whiz! Look
at that!"

After all, isn't that why we're all hams and why we build gear? Let's not
insist on diluting the sheer enjoyment of the "Gee whiz" response with petty
practicality...

Ron AC7AC

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Stephen W. Kercel

RE: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2

Ron:

Probably, unless one is using some very exotic mode such as Coherent CW,
millisecond synchronization is not actually required for ham operations.

However, there are some fairly routine operations in which sub-second
resolution is a necessity and not a luxury. These include the
synchronization of beacons, or identifying which of several synchronized
beacons you're receiving if you can detect that the signal is present but
cannot make out the callsign. I would also think that coordinated
operations such as hidden transmitter hunting would be greatly enhanced if
all the participants have the same time within less that a tenth of a second.

However, for routine (or even contest) logging, I agree with you that a six
dollar clock is as good as you need. Nevertheless, I did get an atomic
clock, partly to facilitate DX beacon monitoring, but primarily for the gee
whiz factor.

73,

Steve
AA4AK

At 12:34 PM 1/9/2005 -0800, you wrote:

Ron D'Eau Claire-2

RE: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

Yep. Several ops mentioned modes I don't use <G>.

I often use the propagation beacons at 20 meters and down, but my PC clock
is synched to NIS through the internet connection, so it's always "dead on"
for that purpose.

Is it okay if I buy an atomic clock some day for the 'Gee Whiz' factor <G>?

Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----
...there are some fairly routine operations in which sub-second
resolution is a necessity and not a luxury. These include the
synchronization of beacons, or identifying which of several synchronized
beacons you're receiving if you can detect that the signal is present but
cannot make out the callsign...

73,

Steve
AA4AK

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srife

RE: Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

NO !!!! <G>

Stan Rife
W5EWA
Houston, TX
K2 S/N 4216

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 4:23 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding

Yep. Several ops mentioned modes I don't use <G>.

I often use the propagation beacons at 20 meters and down, but my PC clock
is synched to NIS through the internet connection, so it's always "dead on"
for that purpose.

Is it okay if I buy an atomic clock some day for the 'Gee Whiz' factor <G>?

Ron AC7AC

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