Attitudes

[dlajr]

I was first licensed just three weeks short of my 11th birthday in 1958 (KN4ZZR), and I have been (more or less) actively involved in amateur radio ever since.

I have seen a lot of change in that time, but the one constant that has always amazed me is the level of anger among a certain percentage of those involved in this *hobby*.  And it is a hobby.

After all of these years, I am still amazed at what I don't know.  I maintain a list of people whom I am not afraid to ask any question arising from any problem that has stumped me.  The knowledge that I have gained, and the friendships that I have made, are priceless.

I know from personal experience how off-putting it is to ask someone a question in good faith, and have them blow up, denigrate you, and launch into a rant.  I avoid these people at all costs, and I feel badly for them.  They are missing much of the joy that this very short life has to offer.

I have been passionately involved in aviation since 1965, and I have never experienced this phenomenon in the flying community.  People in this community are both eager to help and teach, and to learn.  And they have always been uniformly friendly.

I don't know what it is about amateur radio that causes (or attracts) this anger, but it is self-defeating.  If this hobby is in peril, and if our numbers are shrinking, we need to accept everyone who has an interest, and we need to nurture them and pass on whatever knowledge we have.  If they came into the hobby by memorizing the answers to a set of questions, that should be fine.  They have shown an interest, and some initiative.  It is up to us to make them feel welcome and accepted.  It is up to us to bring them from where they are, to where we want them to be.  Try it.  Some of them might truly surprise you!

Dan Allen
KB4ZVM (Advanced Operator Privileges - 13 WPM code)
K2 S/N 1757
BS Chemistry 1969
BS Pharmacy 1974
Private Pilot Glider
Commercial Pilot/Instrument Rating Airplane Single-Engine Land
Airline Transport Pilot Airplane Multi-Engine Land
Certified Flight Instructor
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[kg6d]

Very well said Dan, I could not agree with you more.

Now everyone, let's please end this thread and get on with our lives.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Allen" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 12:56:38 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [Elecraft] Attitudes

I was first licensed just three weeks short of my 11th birthday in 1958 (KN4ZZR), and I have been (more or less) actively involved in amateur radio ever since.

I have seen a lot of change in that time, but the one constant that has always amazed me is the level of anger among a certain percentage of those involved in this *hobby*. And it is a hobby.

After all of these years, I am still amazed at what I don't know. I maintain a list of people whom I am not afraid to ask any question arising from any problem that has stumped me. The knowledge that I have gained, and the friendships that I have made, are priceless.

I know from personal experience how off-putting it is to ask someone a question in good faith, and have them blow up, denigrate you, and launch into a rant. I avoid these people at all costs, and I feel badly for them. They are missing much of the joy that this very short life has to offer.

I have been passionately involved in aviation since 1965, and I have never experienced this phenomenon in the flying community. People in this community are both eager to help and teach, and to learn. And they have always been uniformly friendly.

I don't know what it is about amateur radio that causes (or attracts) this anger, but it is self-defeating. If this hobby is in peril, and if our numbers are shrinking, we need to accept everyone who has an interest, and we need to nurture them and pass on whatever knowledge we have. If they came into the hobby by memorizing the answers to a set of questions, that should be fine. They have shown an interest, and some initiative. It is up to us to make them feel welcome and accepted. It is up to us to bring them from where they are, to where we want them to be. Try it. Some of them might truly surprise you!

Dan Allen
KB4ZVM (Advanced Operator Privileges - 13 WPM code)
K2 S/N 1757
BS Chemistry 1969
BS Pharmacy 1974
Private Pilot Glider
Commercial Pilot/Instrument Rating Airplane Single-Engine Land
Airline Transport Pilot Airplane Multi-Engine Land
Certified Flight Instructor
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft 
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm 
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net 
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Stephen W. Kercel]

Dan and others:

Dan's insights are wise on a number of levels, and the ham community
would do well to heed them.

When I hear all this hand wringing about "dumbing down" I am reminded of
the Eqyptologist who after years of effort translated a document from
the ancient heiroglyphics found that it was a diatribe bemoaning the
fact that compared the author's own generation, "the younger generation
knows nothing."

Fast forward 3000 years to about 100 years ago, and we come to the first
radiotelegraphers exams. What was required to pass? A five minute
transmission at 20+ wpm with no errors in the copy. I've been operating
CW for 45 years, and it is no sure bet even with all that experience I
could pass such a test on any given day.

To this day, I see occasional published comments to the effect that ham
radio really started to go to pot when the Novice license was
introduced. Stories are told of old crumudgeons who called "CQ no lids
no kids no space cadets" as if their arrogance were something to be admired.

Despite having passed the commercial Second Class CW back when you still
had to draw schematics, the Amateur Extra back when there were both code
receiving and sending tests (back in the day, if you took the test from
Angelo Ditty in the Atlanta FCC office you were more likely to fail
sending than receiving), the Tennessee Registered Professional Engineer
exam, and a PhD defense in electrical engineering, I find I am still
learning new things about radio, and no small part of that from
relatively newly licensed amateurs. We are all ignorant on different topics.

Browbeating the ignorant for their ignorance, either as a class or as
specific individuals does nothing to advance ham radio, and a good deal
to retard it. Instead, a polite explanation can work wonders.

73,

Steve Kercel
AA4AK



Dan Allen wrote:

> I was first licensed just three weeks short of my 11th birthday in 1958 (KN4ZZR), and I have been (more or less) actively involved in amateur radio ever since.
>
> I have seen a lot of change in that time, but the one constant that has always amazed me is the level of anger among a certain percentage of those involved in this *hobby*.  And it is a hobby.
>
> After all of these years, I am still amazed at what I don't know.  I maintain a list of people whom I am not afraid to ask any question arising from any problem that has stumped me.  The knowledge that I have gained, and the friendships that I have made, are priceless.
>
> I know from personal experience how off-putting it is to ask someone a question in good faith, and have them blow up, denigrate you, and launch into a rant.  I avoid these people at all costs, and I feel badly for them.  They are missing much of the joy that this very short life has to offer.
>
> I have been passionately involved in aviation since 1965, and I have never experienced this phenomenon in the flying community.  People in this community are both eager to help and teach, and to learn.  And they have always been uniformly friendly.
>
> I don't know what it is about amateur radio that causes (or attracts) this anger, but it is self-defeating.  If this hobby is in peril, and if our numbers are shrinking, we need to accept everyone who has an interest, and we need to nurture them and pass on whatever knowledge we have.  If they came into the hobby by memorizing the answers to a set of questions, that should be fine.  They have shown an interest, and some initiative.  It is up to us to make them feel welcome and accepted.  It is up to us to bring them from where they are, to where we want them to be.  Try it.  Some of them might truly surprise you!
>
> Dan Allen
> KB4ZVM (Advanced Operator Privileges - 13 WPM code)
> K2 S/N 1757
> BS Chemistry 1969
> BS Pharmacy 1974
> Private Pilot Glider
> Commercial Pilot/Instrument Rating Airplane Single-Engine Land
> Airline Transport Pilot Airplane Multi-Engine Land
> Certified Flight Instructor
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>  

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Phil Kane-2]

On 5/9/2009 1:35 PM, Stephen W. Kercel wrote:

> Despite having passed the commercial Second Class CW back when
> you still had to draw schematics, the Amateur Extra back when
> there were both code receiving and sending tests (back in the
> day, if you took the test from Angelo Ditty in the Atlanta FCC
> office you were more likely to fail sending than receiving),

  When I first joined the FCC staff (after 10 years in the
  private sector) in 1967, Angelo and I shared a room in the San
  Francisco District Office for a year until he transferred to
  Tampa and later to Atlanta.  He was quite a guy - half German,
  half Sicilian.  He'd give you the shirt off his back as long as
  you didn't challenge or contradict him, whether he was right or
  wrong.  He was known for being a very detailed ship radio
  inspector and CW freak.  Out of the office he had a fully-grown
  de-clawed and de-fanged cougar as a house pet.  The cat died
  before he reached Atlanta.  He and I worked quite a few cases
  together in that one year.  He retired from the FCC several
  years before I did, and although there is an "FCC Alumni Reflector"
  we've lost touch.

  Thanks for the memories even if it is off-topic for those
  who never met him.

--  73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane  (Esq. / P.E.)
    Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Thom LaCosta-2]

At 04:10 PM 05/09/09, [hidden email] wrote:
>Very well said Dan, I could not agree with you more.
>Now everyone, let's please end this thread and get on with our lives.

But only after we comment to or about Dan and his post.

After all, it's fair game to introduce noise into the channel by
requesting that noise be diminished.

Thom

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

Sieve,

> Browbeating the ignorant for their ignorance, either as a class
> or as specific individuals does nothing to advance ham radio,
> and a good deal to retard it.

This "attitude" is not a matter of browbeating the ignorant for
their ignorance.  It may be browbeating the self entitled for
their attitude of entitlement and their unwillingness to make
any effort to improve their skills and knowledge.  

There are too many amateurs who believe that they do not need
to do anything for themselves ... that memorizing the answers
to a few questions entitles them to demand that others do the
thinking for them and answer every question, no matter how
basic or in appropriate.  These same "entitled extras" seem
to feel it is up to manufacturers to build equipment that
operates as these inexperienced amateurs WANT it to operate
rather than the way experience nictitates things work in the
real world.  

Rather than understand that a license is a starting point,
an opportunity to start learning, the "entitled extras" seem
to think a license entitles them to all the benefits, knowledge
and experience of all those who have preceded them without any
effort on their own part.  It is much like so many children in
high school and university today ... they expect the teachers
and professors to "teach" them but fail to understand that they
have a duty to listen and learn.  

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Stephen W. Kercel
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 4:35 PM
> To: Dan Allen
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Attitudes
>
>
> Dan and others:
>
> Dan's insights are wise on a number of levels, and the ham community
> would do well to heed them.
>
> When I hear all this hand wringing about "dumbing down" I am
> reminded of
> the Eqyptologist who after years of effort translated a document from
> the ancient heiroglyphics found that it was a diatribe bemoaning the
> fact that compared the author's own generation, "the younger
> generation
> knows nothing."
>
> Fast forward 3000 years to about 100 years ago, and we come
> to the first
> radiotelegraphers exams. What was required to pass? A five minute
> transmission at 20+ wpm with no errors in the copy. I've been
> operating
> CW for 45 years, and it is no sure bet even with all that
> experience I
> could pass such a test on any given day.
>
> To this day, I see occasional published comments to the
> effect that ham
> radio really started to go to pot when the Novice license was
> introduced. Stories are told of old crumudgeons who called
> "CQ no lids
> no kids no space cadets" as if their arrogance were something
> to be admired.
>
> Despite having passed the commercial Second Class CW back
> when you still
> had to draw schematics, the Amateur Extra back when there
> were both code
> receiving and sending tests (back in the day, if you took the
> test from
> Angelo Ditty in the Atlanta FCC office you were more likely to fail
> sending than receiving), the Tennessee Registered
> Professional Engineer
> exam, and a PhD defense in electrical engineering, I find I am still
> learning new things about radio, and no small part of that from
> relatively newly licensed amateurs. We are all ignorant on
> different topics.
>
> Browbeating the ignorant for their ignorance, either as a class or as
> specific individuals does nothing to advance ham radio, and a
> good deal
> to retard it. Instead, a polite explanation can work wonders.
>
> 73,
>
> Steve Kercel
> AA4AK
>
>
>
> Dan Allen wrote:
> > I was first licensed just three weeks short of my 11th birthday in
> > 1958 (KN4ZZR), and I have been (more or less) actively involved in
> > amateur radio ever since.
> >
> > I have seen a lot of change in that time, but the one constant that
> > has always amazed me is the level of anger among a certain
> percentage
> > of those involved in this *hobby*.  And it is a hobby.
> >
> > After all of these years, I am still amazed at what I don't
> know.  I
> > maintain a list of people whom I am not afraid to ask any question
> > arising from any problem that has stumped me.  The knowledge that I
> > have gained, and the friendships that I have made, are priceless.
> >
> > I know from personal experience how off-putting it is to
> ask someone a
> > question in good faith, and have them blow up, denigrate you, and
> > launch into a rant.  I avoid these people at all costs, and I feel
> > badly for them.  They are missing much of the joy that this
> very short
> > life has to offer.
> >
> > I have been passionately involved in aviation since 1965,
> and I have
> > never experienced this phenomenon in the flying community.  
> People in
> > this community are both eager to help and teach, and to learn.  And
> > they have always been uniformly friendly.
> >
> > I don't know what it is about amateur radio that causes (or
> attracts)
> > this anger, but it is self-defeating.  If this hobby is in
> peril, and
> > if our numbers are shrinking, we need to accept everyone who has an
> > interest, and we need to nurture them and pass on whatever
> knowledge
> > we have.  If they came into the hobby by memorizing the
> answers to a
> > set of questions, that should be fine.  They have shown an
> interest,
> > and some initiative.  It is up to us to make them feel welcome and
> > accepted.  It is up to us to bring them from where they
> are, to where
> > we want them to be.  Try it.  Some of them might truly surprise you!
> >
> > Dan Allen
> > KB4ZVM (Advanced Operator Privileges - 13 WPM code)
> > K2 S/N 1757
> > BS Chemistry 1969
> > BS Pharmacy 1974
> > Private Pilot Glider
> > Commercial Pilot/Instrument Rating Airplane Single-Engine
> Land Airline
> > Transport Pilot Airplane Multi-Engine Land Certified Flight
> Instructor
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >  
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[w5tvw]

I had several "ship inspections" in Mobile, Ala with Amgelo Ditty doing the
inspections!  He doesn't overlook anything!

I remember years ago when one "Jerry Freeman" came to the New Orleans FCC
office and played havoc with the CB'ers and a few hams in the area.  He
liked to brag about his "Johnson Desk" at the time.  He moved eventually to
Norfolk, VA and I heard sat behind his big desk wearing his
revolver...."because he could!"

Quite a character.  He is SK now.

I used to see Leroy "Bud" Hall on most of the Ship Inspections I did in New
Orleans, but haven't seen him in years.  I don't know if he is retired or
still at the New Orleans office.

73,

Sandy W5TVW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Kane" <[hidden email]>
To: "Stephen W. Kercel" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 5:24 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] FCC Memories [was: Attitudes]

> On 5/9/2009 1:35 PM, Stephen W. Kercel wrote:
>
>> Despite having passed the commercial Second Class CW back when
>> you still had to draw schematics, the Amateur Extra back when
>> there were both code receiving and sending tests (back in the
>> day, if you took the test from Angelo Ditty in the Atlanta FCC
>> office you were more likely to fail sending than receiving),
>
>  When I first joined the FCC staff (after 10 years in the
>  private sector) in 1967, Angelo and I shared a room in the San
>  Francisco District Office for a year until he transferred to
>  Tampa and later to Atlanta.  He was quite a guy - half German,
>  half Sicilian.  He'd give you the shirt off his back as long as
>  you didn't challenge or contradict him, whether he was right or
>  wrong.  He was known for being a very detailed ship radio
>  inspector and CW freak.  Out of the office he had a fully-grown
>  de-clawed and de-fanged cougar as a house pet.  The cat died
>  before he reached Atlanta.  He and I worked quite a few cases
>  together in that one year.  He retired from the FCC several
>  years before I did, and although there is an "FCC Alumni Reflector"
>  we've lost touch.
>
>  Thanks for the memories even if it is off-topic for those
>  who never met him.
>
> --  73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane  (Esq. / P.E.)
>    Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.23/2106 - Release Date: 05/09/09
06:54:00

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html