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BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

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ke9uw

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

I take it this is a KAT3 clone, not a KAT3A improved version.

Chuck Hawley
[hidden email]

Amateur Radio, KE9UW
aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles

________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 11:28 AM
To: Doug Person
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

I've used many MFJ products and in have had very little trouble with any of them. For example, I make frequent use an MFJ-223 hand-held VNA -- it's versatile and does the job. I've also used their manual tuners, antenna switches, and portable/mobile whips. They have a very comprehensive product line that's really unique in the industry.

That said, I do have some suggestions for MFJ's engineering team on how they might improve their ATU.

Looking at the photo, I see that they used much smaller toroidal cores for 5 of the 8 inductors in the L network. This could result in excessive heating, especially on the higher bands, at full power into a worst-case match. We specified T68 sized cores to remain conservative based on extensive testing. Also, if you click on the photo to see the details, you'll see what appears to be very inconsistent hand soldering of the SMD components. While this doesn't necessarily worsen performance or reliability, it should be done in a way that inspires confidence in the buyer. (Easy for me to say, of course. We have the luxury of mass-producing these assemblies using automated pick-and-place equipment at our fabricator in Monterey.)

Wayne
N6KR

> On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:00 AM, Doug Person <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> MFJ has been a leader in automatic tuner technology for years. It was probably a very simple engineering process for them to use what they have to create a K3 tuner. You may have a dislike of MFJ products. But, that doesn't preclude the fact that their tuners work very well. They have been selling the K3 tuner for years. It doesn't seem the least bit surprising given the modular nature of the K3 and the long history MFJ has with automatic tuner technology. Maybe it's actually a complement to Elecraft that MFJ takes the K3 so seriously.
>
> Doug --KJØF
>
> On 4/7/2019 10:26 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
>> Ozarkcon yesterday. Break-time. Pile of MFJ catalogs on a table. Took one back to my seat to kill time. Opened it up to the second page and in the lower left corner is a box-ad with the following:
>>
>>
>> "MFJ ATU PC Board for Elecraft K-3 Rig. MFJ-950K3 is a super clone of the KAT3 optional tuning board for the superb Elecraft K3 transceiver. MFJ-950K3 is a direct plug-in PC board for the Elecraft K3 10 Watt or 100 Watt model. Covers 1.8 to 54 MHz. This automatic antenna tuner PC board features an L-Match design and can match SWR up to 10:1. It handles 100 Watts. The ATU PC board has a second antenna port, and a sub-rx SMA port. All antenna ports are protected with gas discharge tubes. Super sensitive relay allows excellent low current drain. MFJ-950K3 is 4W x 3 1/2H x 1 1/4D inches and easily slides right into the K3’s tuning board slot. Weighs less than 1/2 pound. Pick up this great accessory for your K3 today and save $$$!"
>>
>>
>> What in the world is that all about? What possible market are they shooting at? Who would put anything "MFJ" in anything Elecraft?
>>
>> Someone enlighten me! Did I sleep through April 1st?
>>
>> https://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-950K3
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Kent K9ZTV

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Chuck, KE9UW

wayne burdick

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

Administrator

Correct.

Wayne

> On Apr 7, 2019, at 11:32 AM, hawley, charles j jr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I take it this is a KAT3 clone, not a KAT3A improved version.
>
> Chuck Hawley
> [hidden email]
>
> Amateur Radio, KE9UW
> aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles
>
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 11:28 AM
> To: Doug Person
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ
>
> I've used many MFJ products and in have had very little trouble with any of them. For example, I make frequent use an MFJ-223 hand-held VNA -- it's versatile and does the job. I've also used their manual tuners, antenna switches, and portable/mobile whips. They have a very comprehensive product line that's really unique in the industry.
>
> That said, I do have some suggestions for MFJ's engineering team on how they might improve their ATU.
>
> Looking at the photo, I see that they used much smaller toroidal cores for 5 of the 8 inductors in the L network. This could result in excessive heating, especially on the higher bands, at full power into a worst-case match. We specified T68 sized cores to remain conservative based on extensive testing. Also, if you click on the photo to see the details, you'll see what appears to be very inconsistent hand soldering of the SMD components. While this doesn't necessarily worsen performance or reliability, it should be done in a way that inspires confidence in the buyer. (Easy for me to say, of course. We have the luxury of mass-producing these assemblies using automated pick-and-place equipment at our fabricator in Monterey.)
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:00 AM, Doug Person <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > MFJ has been a leader in automatic tuner technology for years. It was probably a very simple engineering process for them to use what they have to create a K3 tuner. You may have a dislike of MFJ products. But, that doesn't preclude the fact that their tuners work very well. They have been selling the K3 tuner for years. It doesn't seem the least bit surprising given the modular nature of the K3 and the long history MFJ has with automatic tuner technology. Maybe it's actually a complement to Elecraft that MFJ takes the K3 so seriously.
> >
> > Doug --KJØF
> >
> > On 4/7/2019 10:26 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
> >> Ozarkcon yesterday. Break-time. Pile of MFJ catalogs on a table. Took one back to my seat to kill time. Opened it up to the second page and in the lower left corner is a box-ad with the following:
> >>
> >>
> >> "MFJ ATU PC Board for Elecraft K-3 Rig. MFJ-950K3 is a super clone of the KAT3 optional tuning board for the superb Elecraft K3 transceiver. MFJ-950K3 is a direct plug-in PC board for the Elecraft K3 10 Watt or 100 Watt model. Covers 1.8 to 54 MHz. This automatic antenna tuner PC board features an L-Match design and can match SWR up to 10:1. It handles 100 Watts. The ATU PC board has a second antenna port, and a sub-rx SMA port. All antenna ports are protected with gas discharge tubes. Super sensitive relay allows excellent low current drain. MFJ-950K3 is 4W x 3 1/2H x 1 1/4D inches and easily slides right into the K3’s tuning board slot. Weighs less than 1/2 pound. Pick up this great accessory for your K3 today and save $$$!"
> >>
> >>
> >> What in the world is that all about? What possible market are they shooting at? Who would put anything "MFJ" in anything Elecraft?
> >>
> >> Someone enlighten me! Did I sleep through April 1st?
> >>
> >> https://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-950K3
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Kent K9ZTV
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Bill Frantz

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I had to re-solder the ground connection on the SO-239 connector
on my MFJ antenna analyser. That's the only problem I've had
with it. Getting a good connection on large chunks of metal is
difficult, and takes a lot of heat.

I've always considered that the MFJ products meet their
specifications, while the Elecraft ones exceed them. (I won't
mention the time I ran 100W through a T1 tuner. It wasn't for
long and the tuner survived.)

73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/7/19 at 9:28 AM, [hidden email] (Wayne Burdick) wrote:

>Also, if you click on the photo to see the details, you'll see
>what appears to be very inconsistent hand soldering of the SMD components.

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

Administrator

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

Folks, we exceeding the single topic limit number of posts and its also a long delayed repeat of a prior thread from over a year or two ago.

Let's close it in the interest of relieving email overload for our other readers. Feel free to search the nabble archive of the list for prior posts on this topic.

Its also outside of the list guidelines to criticize other manufacturer's products here.

73,

Eric
Moderator, from time to time
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Apr 7, 2019, at 10:22 AM, Alan Bloom <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I've long had mixed feelings about MFJ. They have some very
> interesting, innovative, and cost-competitive products. However
> sometimes the quality isn't there. For example I have an MFJ antenna
> analyzer that was intermittent until I fixed a poor ground connection.
> I forget the details, but as I recall the problem was partly one of
> design.
>
> Alan N1AL
>
>> On 2019-04-07 09:28, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>
>> I've used many MFJ products and in have had very little trouble with any of them. For example, I make frequent use an MFJ-223 hand-held VNA -- it's versatile and does the job. I've also used their manual tuners, antenna switches, and portable/mobile whips. They have a very comprehensive product line that's really unique in the industry.
>>
>> That said, I do have some suggestions for MFJ's engineering team on how they might improve their ATU.
>>
>> Looking at the photo, I see that they used much smaller toroidal cores for 5 of the 8 inductors in the L network. This could result in excessive heating, especially on the higher bands, at full power into a worst-case match. We specified T68 sized cores to remain conservative based on extensive testing. Also, if you click on the photo to see the details, you'll see what appears to be very inconsistent hand soldering of the SMD components. While this doesn't necessarily worsen performance or reliability, it should be done in a way that inspires confidence in the buyer. (Easy for me to say, of course. We have the luxury of mass-producing these assemblies using automated pick-and-place equipment at our fabricator in Monterey.)
>>
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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wayne burdick

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

Administrator

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

Bill Frantz wrote:

> (I won't mention...

too late!

> the time I ran 100W through a T1 tuner. It wasn't for long and the tuner survived.)

Ouch. We did T1 tests at 50 W to make sure it could handle 20 W, and even that was an invitation-only event, with observers at a distance wearing safety goggles. How long it would survive a KPA1500 is left as an exercise for the reader. I'm imagining a soft blue glow from the toroids.

Wayne
N6KR

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NK7Z

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

Actually keeping this thread open is a better thing...

It lets Elecraft users see what other options are available...

That said-- I know I would never add an MFJ item to my K3. The fact
Elecraft has allowed this thread to continue shows how open minded
Elecraft is, and how sure of their product they are...

73s and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL OOC for Oregon

On 4/7/19 11:47 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Bill Frantz wrote:
>
>> (I won't mention...
>
> too late!
>
>> the time I ran 100W through a T1 tuner. It wasn't for long and the tuner survived.)
>
> Ouch. We did T1 tests at 50 W to make sure it could handle 20 W, and even that was an invitation-only event, with observers at a distance wearing safety goggles. How long it would survive a KPA1500 is left as an exercise for the reader. I'm imagining a soft blue glow from the toroids.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Barry LaZar

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,
Is that same algorithm and code in the KX3 and K3s??

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
To: "Dr. William J. Schmidt" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 4/7/2019 12:32:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

>> On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:15 AM, Dr. William J. Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> There isn't really much in the way of smarts on the clone board. It's simply the tuner elements (coils and capacitors), a few relays, the relay driver chips, and gas tubes. The actual tuning smarts comes from elsewhere within the K3. This isn’t much of a stretch for a clone.
>>
>
>
>That's correct. The heart of any binary-weighted L-network ATU is in the firmware, which we've been improving since I first wrote the code for the KAT2. The latest incarnation of this code is in the KAT1500, the ATU included in the KPA1500 amp. My colleague K6KR has done a great job of tweaking the algorithm to eek out that last tenth of an SWR unit on every match.
>
>Wayne
>N6KR
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug Person
>> Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 11:00 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ
>>
>> MFJ has been a leader in automatic tuner technology for years. It was probably a very simple engineering process for them to use what they have to create a K3 tuner. You may have a dislike of MFJ products. But, that doesn't preclude the fact that their tuners work very well. They have been selling the K3 tuner for years. It doesn't seem the least bit surprising given the modular nature of the K3 and the long history MFJ has with automatic tuner technology. Maybe it's actually a complement to Elecraft that MFJ takes the K3 so seriously.
>>
>> Doug --KJØF
>>
>> On 4/7/2019 10:26 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
>>> Ozarkcon yesterday. Break-time. Pile of MFJ catalogs on a table. Took
>>> one back to my seat to kill time. Opened it up to the second page and
>>> in the lower left corner is a box-ad with the following:
>>>
>>>
>>> "MFJ ATU PC Board for Elecraft K-3 Rig. MFJ-950K3 is a super clone of
>>> the KAT3 optional tuning board for the superb Elecraft K3 transceiver.
>>> MFJ-950K3 is a direct plug-in PC board for the Elecraft
>>> K3 10 Watt or 100 Watt model. Covers 1.8 to 54 MHz. This automatic
>>> antenna tuner PC board features an L-Match design and can match SWR up
>>> to 10:1. It handles 100 Watts. The ATU PC board has a second antenna
>>> port, and a sub-rx SMA port. All antenna ports are protected with gas
>>> discharge tubes. Super sensitive relay allows excellent low current
>>> drain. MFJ-950K3 is 4W x 3 1/2H x 1 1/4D inches and easily slides
>>> right into the K3’s tuning board slot. Weighs less than 1/2 pound.
>>> Pick up this great accessory for your K3 today and save $$$!"
>>>
>>>
>>> What in the world is that all about? What possible market are they
>>> shooting at? Who would put anything "MFJ" in anything Elecraft?
>>>
>>> Someone enlighten me! Did I sleep through April 1st?
>>>
>>> https://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-950K3
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Kent K9ZTV
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

wayne burdick

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

Administrator

Hi Barry,

The basic algorithm was developed for the KAT2, but it has morphed into several variations for our different tuners, including the T1, KAT1/2/3/3A/100/500/1500, and KXAT1/2/3/100. It's all about "pruning the search tree," to borrow a term from game theory.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On Apr 7, 2019, at 3:14 PM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Wayne,
> Is that same algorithm and code in the KX3 and K3s??
>
> 73,
> Barry
> K3NDM
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Dr. William J. Schmidt" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 4/7/2019 12:32:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ
>
>>> On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:15 AM, Dr. William J. Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> There isn't really much in the way of smarts on the clone board. It's simply the tuner elements (coils and capacitors), a few relays, the relay driver chips, and gas tubes. The actual tuning smarts comes from elsewhere within the K3. This isn’t much of a stretch for a clone.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That's correct. The heart of any binary-weighted L-network ATU is in the firmware, which we've been improving since I first wrote the code for the KAT2. The latest incarnation of this code is in the KAT1500, the ATU included in the KPA1500 amp. My colleague K6KR has done a great job of tweaking the algorithm to eek out that last tenth of an SWR unit on every match.
>>
>> Wayne
>> N6KR

Bill Frantz

Re: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I remember the bright yellow glow from the final in my Heathkit
DX-40 when I forgot to connect the antenna. At least the plate
didn't melt and the tube still worked.

I had a 100W K3 with no tuner and one of my antennas needed a
tuner, probably for 30M. I used the T1, with the caveat that I
would always lower the power when running through it. Well, I
screwed up one time. I think what I noticed was that as my PSK31
macro ran, the SWR kept rising.

I think I got the cores hot enough to change their magnetic
properties. When they cooled off, everything went back to normal.

But as I said, Elecraft equipment tends to survive forays well
outside their specs.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/7/19 at 11:47 AM, [hidden email] (Wayne Burdick) wrote:

>Bill Frantz wrote:
>
>>(I won't mention...
>
>too late!
>
>>the time I ran 100W through a T1 tuner. It wasn't for long and
>>the tuner survived.)
>
>Ouch. We did T1 tests at 50 W to make sure it could handle 20
>W, and even that was an invitation-only event, with observers
>at a distance wearing safety goggles. How long it would survive
>a KPA1500 is left as an exercise for the reader. I'm imagining
>a soft blue glow from the toroids.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | Security is like Government | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | services. The market doesn't | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | want to pay for them. | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: OT: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

Administrator

In reply to this post by Ken G Kopp

Folks - I just been made aware of the posting below. I am very disappointed and distressed that this happened here.

This extremely inappropriate and racist posting is in direct violation of the Elecraft list guidelines, and it is also in direct conflict with the Ethics we at Elecraft stand for. Posts of this type involving both racial and/or direct attacks on others, regardless of where they are born or live, will not be tolerated here. Period.

As a side note, Martin, the owner of of MFJ, was born in and grew up in Mississippi. He earned his engineering degrees from Mississippi State University Bagley College of Engineering and also the Georgia Institute of Technology. I know Martin and he is an honorable hard working person with impeccable values who has our deepest respect.

Ken, the list deserves a direct apology, as does Martin.

Eric
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:35 AM, Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Perhaps the matter stems from the nationality of MFJ's owner and a
> different set of values.
>
> K0PP
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George Thornton

Re: OT: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

I concur wholeheartedly and thank you.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 9:05 PM
To: Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: BIZARRE OFFERING FROM MFJ

Folks - I just been made aware of the posting below. I am very disappointed and distressed that this happened here.

This extremely inappropriate and racist posting is in direct violation of the Elecraft list guidelines, and it is also in direct conflict with the Ethics we at Elecraft stand for. Posts of this type involving both racial and/or direct attacks on others, regardless of where they are born or live, will not be tolerated here. Period.

As a side note, Martin, the owner of of MFJ, was born in and grew up in Mississippi. He earned his engineering degrees from Mississippi State University Bagley College of Engineering and also the Georgia Institute of Technology. I know Martin and he is an honorable hard working person with impeccable values who has our deepest respect.

Ken, the list deserves a direct apology, as does Martin.

Eric
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:35 AM, Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Perhaps the matter stems from the nationality of MFJ's owner and a
> different set of values.
>
> K0PP
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