Battery vs Ultracapacitor
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I've been reading the technical literature lately and have been following an interesting development: ultracapacitors. These components are on the order of 5K to 20K Farads. So I did a little calculating. 1F = 1V * 1 Coulomb. 1 Coulomb = 1 Ampere Second Thus 1F = 1V * 1 Amp Second. 5000 F / 12 V = 416 2/3 Amp Seconds. 416 2/3 Amp Seconds / 0.5 A = 833 seconds or 13.8 minutes. If I have done this correctly you should be able to run a QRP rig key down for approximately 14 minutes with a fully charged 5K Farad ultracapacitor. From what I have been reading these are getting cheaper via economies of scale and from engineering breakthroughs in dielectric and storage plate materials. The storage plates are activated charcoal plated on aluminum strips and wound into a can filled with electrolyte. The electrolyte material, acetonitrile, is the rub however. If it burns cyanide gas is produced in dangerous quantities. Nanotube technology and more recent electrolyte chemisty advances are offering even greater capacitance in smaller packages. One day we may be running our rigs from ultracapacitors instead of batteries. They recharge extremely rapidly. They store charge for a long period of time. And they discharge at rates that put the best batteries to shame. If you need high amperage devices (think your 100 watt rig on transmit) these will fill the bill. Since electrochemical devices are reaching their limits this may be the next mobile power storage device. Kevin. KD5ONS -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.3/30 - Release Date: 6/27/2005 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Hi Kevin, > One day we may be running our rigs from ultracapacitors instead of > batteries. They recharge extremely rapidly. They store charge for a > long period of time. And they discharge at rates that put the best > batteries to shame. If you need high amperage devices (think your 100 > watt rig on transmit) these will fill the bill.... I think your calculations are right. Meanwhile (next 5 years), I'll put my money on miniature fuel cells. They're already available for some applications, such as mobile of recharging cell phone batteries. There are fuel-cell-powered bicycles under development, too. For example, I think a KBT2-sized power plant might one day power a K2 for 100 or so hours (rough guess). Just pop in a new hydrogen cell when it runs down. Need hydrogen? Split some water molecules with solar energy -- totally sustainable ham operation ;) There are also bacteria that produce hydrogen, when properly "trained." 73, Wayne N6KR --- http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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The articles I've been reading put these components in association with
solar cells, regenerative braking, and with various types of fuel cells as the electricity source. Fuel cells and ultracapacitors play very well together. The economy of scale is coming from the hybrid automotive market. Batteries are just too darn heavy for that venue. Fuel cells and ultracapacitors complement one another very well for this market. Interesting times ahead. 73, Kevin. KD5ONS On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:40:37 -0700, wayne burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > Hi Kevin, > >> One day we may be running our rigs from ultracapacitors instead of >> batteries. They recharge extremely rapidly. They store charge for a >> long period of time. And they discharge at rates that put the best >> batteries to shame. If you need high amperage devices (think your 100 >> watt rig on transmit) these will fill the bill.... > > I think your calculations are right. Meanwhile (next 5 years), I'll put > my money on miniature fuel cells. They're already available for some > applications, such as mobile of recharging cell phone batteries. There > are fuel-cell-powered bicycles under development, too. > > For example, I think a KBT2-sized power plant might one day power a K2 > for 100 or so hours (rough guess). Just pop in a new hydrogen cell when > it runs down. Need hydrogen? Split some water molecules with solar > energy -- totally sustainable ham operation ;) > > There are also bacteria that produce hydrogen, when properly "trained." > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > --- > > http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: > http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.3/30 - Release Date: 6/27/2005 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: Battery vs Ultracapacitor
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Wayne, N6KR wrote:
Meanwhile (next 5 years), I'll put my money on miniature fuel cells. They're already available for some applications, such as mobile of recharging cell phone batteries. There are fuel-cell-powered bicycles under development, too. ---------------- About a year or so ago one of Asian notebook computer companies (Toshiba perhaps?) "leaked" the imminent release of a fuel-cell powered laptop computer. Supposed to run five or six hours on a fuel supply and easily recharged. Dunno what system they were using, but I wondered how successful one would be trying to get some sort of pressurized fuel canister onto an airplane in carry-on luggage. Maybe that's why we haven't seen it yet... Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Battery vs Ultracapacitor
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
On Monday 27 June 2005 23:18, Kevin Rock wrote:
> If it burns > cyanide gas is produced in dangerous quantities. OT but .. In 1986 during a software contract, one of the staff kind of staggered back to his seat saying that he felt weak and sick. I told him that he was suffering from mild cyanide poisoning. "You're joking?" he said looking at me. I reassured him that it was not an accumulative poisoning and since he had survived, there was no danger then nor in the future. He had been smoking a cigarette in the ammonia fumes of the large blueprint copiers of those days. He vowed that he would never smoke there again. 'O' level chemistry. Ian, G4ICV -- _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
wayne burdick wrote:
> There are also bacteria that produce hydrogen, when properly "trained." The problem with that so far has been the feasibility of the nanotech-based whip and chair. :-) 73 de Maggie K3XS -- K2 1641 -- -----/___. _)Margaret Stephanie Leber CCP, SCJP/"The art of progress / ----/(, /| /| http://voicenet.com/~maggie SCWCD/ is to preserve order/ ---/ / | / | _ _ _ ` _ AOPA 925383/ amid change and to / --/ ) / |/ |_(_(_(_/_(_/__(__(/_ K3XS / preserve change amid/ -/ (_/ ' .-/ .-/ ARRL 39280 /order."-A.N.Whitehead/ /________________(_/_(_/_______AMSAT 32844_/<[hidden email]>/ _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
At 11:18 PM 6/27/2005, Kevin Rock wrote...
>If I have done this correctly you should be able to run a QRP rig key down for approximately 14 minutes with a fully charged 5K Farad ultracapacitor. Discharge curves vary significantly between caps and batteries. Caps discharge exponentially, and the voltage would drop to an unusable level rather quickly. Chemical batteries have a much flatter discharge curve, and much more of the available power is therefore useful. More of the available power in a cap could be used with active voltage regulation (step-up), but that would bring further inefficiencies into play. Mike Sauve W8UR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
As long the operator and everything in 1000 feet radius doesn't go up in
smoke! :-) Tom LA1PHA ----- Original Message ----- From: "wayne burdick" <[hidden email]> To: "Kevin Rock" <[hidden email]> Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>; "glowbugs" <[hidden email]> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Battery vs Ultracapacitor > > > Hi Kevin, > >> One day we may be running our rigs from ultracapacitors instead of >> batteries. They recharge extremely rapidly. They store charge for a >> long period of time. And they discharge at rates that put the best >> batteries to shame. If you need high amperage devices (think your 100 >> watt rig on transmit) these will fill the bill.... > > I think your calculations are right. Meanwhile (next 5 years), I'll put my > money on miniature fuel cells. They're already available for some > applications, such as mobile of recharging cell phone batteries. There are > fuel-cell-powered bicycles under development, too. > > For example, I think a KBT2-sized power plant might one day power a K2 for > 100 or so hours (rough guess). Just pop in a new hydrogen cell when it > runs down. Need hydrogen? Split some water molecules with solar energy -- > totally sustainable ham operation ;) > > There are also bacteria that produce hydrogen, when properly "trained." > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > --- > > http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Margaret Leber
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Margaret Leber wrote:
> wayne burdick wrote: > >> There are also bacteria that produce hydrogen, when properly "trained." > > The problem with that so far has been the feasibility of the nanotech-based > whip and chair. :-) To say nothing of the nanotreats to reinforce the desired behavior. 73,Thom-k3hrn www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page, Free Classified Ads for amateur radio, QRP IRC channel Elecraft Owners Database www.tlchost.net/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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