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Beta 5r10

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Vic Rosenthal

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

I don't understand. The K3 directly supports dual diversity reception. The beta makes it possible to enter diversity mode with a normal hold of the SUB button instead of the previously required long hold.

The LINK function makes the two VFOs tune together, and they can be on the same frequency. But it isn't needed for diversity and would be clumsy to use for that purpose for several reasons (extra button pushes to equalize frequencies, bandwidth, etc.; possible need to change audio mixing setting).

LINK is not the same as diversity, and I have never figured out what it is good for.

Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO

> On Feb 16, 2015, at 2:51 AM, Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Arie,
> I agree with you 'LINK' should not be abandoned. Please excuse my language, I would consider the idea of abandoning the 'LINK' is stupid.
> During APDXC 2012 in Icom HQ Osaka, I spoke to Mr. Inoue JA3FA that I did not understand why IC7800 did not have the function of LINK for both VFOA & B so that I could use the dual receivers for diversity reception. I also mentioned that their competitor K3 had that function which I often used.
> Skillful use of diversity reception will enable you to pick up the odds even with simple antennae.
> 73
> Johnny VR2XMC
> 寄件人︰ Arie Kleingeld PA3A <[hidden email]>
> 收件人︰ [hidden email]
> 傳送日期︰ 2015年02月16日 (週一) 1:10 AM
> 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK
>
> Tony
>
> LINK ties both VFO's to the mail freq dial en keeps them insync when you
> turn the dial knob.
> So both receivers keep working on the same freq.
>
> What I often use i diversity listening so with two receivers and two
> antennas on the samen freq.
> Diversity puts the main RX audio on the left ear of the headset, and the
> Sub on the right ear. That's the normal situation.
> In my case, the F9-F12 buttons in N1MM contain commands to the K3 that
> switch the audio to my liking (that can also be done in the Config, but
> that takes too much time during QSO) This way I can switch listening
> from diversity (listen both MainRX and SubRX at same time) to only main
> RX (main RX audio on both ears) or only sub RX (Sub RX audio on both
> ears) depending on where the signal is best.
> The commands to do this are in the programmers manual of the K3. It's
> really fun to control some beautiful K3 features from the keyboard like
> this.
>
> 73
> Arie PA3A
>
>
>
>
>
>
> N2TK, Tony schreef op 15-2-2015 om 16:38:
>> Hi Arie,
>> I am not sure I understand what LINK does to help when both receivers are on
>> the same freq. What does F9-F12 below do to help?
>> Tnx
>> N2TK, Tony
> .....
>> - F9 = listen A-B
>> - F10 = listen A-A
>> - F11 = listen B-B
>> - F12 contains the commands to copy VFO freq and mode from A to B and LINK
>> the VFO's.
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
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gm3sek

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by Gary Gregory-2

That's an ingenious workaround, Gary, but you wouldn't need to do that
if the K3 had a programmable 'Smart Split' function like any other
transceiver on the market.

Many people are using custom macros for Split, but at present that macro
has to be assigned to some other button - and guest operators have to be
warned *not* to use the SPLIT button itself.

If there were an option to run a custom Split macro directly from the
SPLIT button, the K3 could have the most advanced Split function in the
entire transceiver market. Instead, it has willfully the dumbest, which
requires messy workarounds and invites errors.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>Gary Gregory
>Sent: 16 February 2015 03:04
>To: Tom
>Cc: Elecraft List
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK
>
>I have LINK in use with a 5kc difference between vfo A and vfo B and i
am
>constantly tuning around looking for dxpeditions who usually run split.
>It means for me a quick tap and i am split "up 5" in ssb. I then fine
tune
>when they are calling "up 5-10" etc.
>Taking it away is simply not fair.
>I do not have the 2nd rcvr and i am not interested in diversity.
>I dont give a hoot if i am the only one using LINK, the fact remains i
do

>and i feel i have a right to keep on using it.....Captains Call
>
>Gary
>Vk1ZZ
>K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3.
>On 16/02/2015 12:16 PM, "Tom Blahovici" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Joe,
>> I guess there is some confusion then as to the function of Link.
>> Myself, I thought it was solely there for diversity mode.
>> So, how else would one use the Link function? What is its purpose?
>> Thanks
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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Gary Gregory-2

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

Ian,

I agree absolutely, hence my use of LINK the way i do.

I have no idea where Elecraft will take this but i can say if i have to
resort to creating a
Macro, assigning it to another key (i already use PF1 and PF2) then i will
be annoyed that i have to change the way i have operated for 7 years just
to satisfy others.

Ekecraft want to enrich the features is terrific....try not to alienate
satisfied customers is also desirable i would have thought.

Oh well, it is what it is so for now i will watch and wait before making a
decision on what i will do if the advocates have there way. I just hope
elecraft consider the whole user base prior to making this change. I know i
am not the only one using LINK the way i do.

73

Gary
Vk1ZZ
K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3.
On 16/02/2015 7:22 PM, "Ian White" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> That's an ingenious workaround, Gary, but you wouldn't need to do that
> if the K3 had a programmable 'Smart Split' function like any other
> transceiver on the market.
>
> Many people are using custom macros for Split, but at present that macro
> has to be assigned to some other button - and guest operators have to be
> warned *not* to use the SPLIT button itself.
>
> If there were an option to run a custom Split macro directly from the
> SPLIT button, the K3 could have the most advanced Split function in the
> entire transceiver market. Instead, it has willfully the dumbest, which
> requires messy workarounds and invites errors.
>
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> >Gary Gregory
> >Sent: 16 February 2015 03:04
> >To: Tom
> >Cc: Elecraft List
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK
> >
> >I have LINK in use with a 5kc difference between vfo A and vfo B and i
> am
> >constantly tuning around looking for dxpeditions who usually run split.
> >It means for me a quick tap and i am split "up 5" in ssb. I then fine
> tune
> >when they are calling "up 5-10" etc.
> >Taking it away is simply not fair.
> >I do not have the 2nd rcvr and i am not interested in diversity.
> >I dont give a hoot if i am the only one using LINK, the fact remains i
> do
> >and i feel i have a right to keep on using it.....Captains Call
> >
> >Gary
> >Vk1ZZ
> >K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3.
> >On 16/02/2015 12:16 PM, "Tom Blahovici" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Joe,
> >> I guess there is some confusion then as to the function of Link.
> >> Myself, I thought it was solely there for diversity mode.
> >> So, how else would one use the Link function? What is its purpose?
> >> Thanks
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >______________________________________________________________
> >Elecraft mailing list
> >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

DaleJ

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2

Hello, digest mode here so posting is a little clumsy, but here goes.

I suggest that a config menu option be made where a selection of link or diversity be made and assigned to the one second sub button hold. For those who like link, they could assign that one second button hold as link. For those like me, want it as diversity could similarly go into the config menu and assign the sub button one second hold as diversity. Frankly to me linking is not really for any use that I have. When in diversity both VFO's are already linked and using link where the two VFO's are separated I can see no use for.

Anyway, my .02 worth

73
Dale, K9VUJ

P.S. The clock thing is really running out of gas.

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 13:03:37 +1000
From: Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
To: Tom <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK
Message-ID:
<[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I have LINK in use with a 5kc difference between vfo A and vfo B and i am
constantly tuning around looking for dxpeditions who usually run split.
It means for me a quick tap and i am split "up 5" in ssb. I then fine tune
when they are calling "up 5-10" etc.
Taking it away is simply not fair.
I do not have the 2nd rcvr and i am not interested in diversity.
I dont give a hoot if i am the only one using LINK, the fact remains i do
and i feel i have a right to keep on using it.....Captains Call

Gary
Vk1ZZ
K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3.
On 16/02/2015 12:16 PM, "Tom Blahovici" <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Brendan Minish

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

Johnny,

I had the 7800 for a while, the reason it can't do diversity is that
since the main and sub use different IF frequencies there is always a
small (Sub 1Hz frequency different between the 2 receivers due to DDS
rounding error differences between the main ad sub synths

Neither link or diversity are 'going away' see the release notes

* EASIER DIVERSITY RECEIVE SELECTION: A regular hold of SUB now goes
directly into diversity receive, without first having to go through
"LINK". This should benefit most users of the KRX3 sub receiver, since
few use the VFO linking function. Those who do use VFO linking can still
turn it on by setting CONFIG:VFO LNK to ON. This menu entry can be
assigned to a programmable function switch for easy selection if
desired, eliminating the need to bring up the menu. Note: Remote-control
command "LN" is another way to accomplish VFO linking.

On Mon, 2015-02-16 at 00:51 +0000, Johnny Siu wrote:

> Hello Arie,
> I agree with you 'LINK' should not be abandoned. Please excuse my language, I would consider the idea of abandoning the 'LINK' is stupid.
> During APDXC 2012 in Icom HQ Osaka, I spoke to Mr. Inoue JA3FA that I did not understand why IC7800 did not have the function of LINK for both VFOA & B so that I could use the dual receivers for diversity reception. I also mentioned that their competitor K3 had that function which I often used.
> Skillful use of diversity reception will enable you to pick up the odds even with simple antennae.
> 73
> Johnny VR2XMC
> 寄件人︰ Arie Kleingeld PA3A <[hidden email]>
> 收件人︰ [hidden email]
> 傳送日期︰ 2015年02月16日 (週一) 1:10 AM
> 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK
>
> Tony
>
> LINK ties both VFO's to the mail freq dial en keeps them insync when you
> turn the dial knob.
> So both receivers keep working on the same freq.
>
> What I often use i diversity listening so with two receivers and two
> antennas on the samen freq.
> Diversity puts the main RX audio on the left ear of the headset, and the
> Sub on the right ear. That's the normal situation.
> In my case, the F9-F12 buttons in N1MM contain commands to the K3 that
> switch the audio to my liking (that can also be done in the Config, but
> that takes too much time during QSO) This way I can switch listening
> from diversity (listen both MainRX and SubRX at same time) to only main
> RX (main RX audio on both ears) or only sub RX (Sub RX audio on both
> ears) depending on where the signal is best.
> The commands to do this are in the programmers manual of the K3. It's
> really fun to control some beautiful K3 features from the keyboard like
> this.
>
> 73
> Arie PA3A
>
>
>
>
>
>
> N2TK, Tony schreef op 15-2-2015 om 16:38:
> > Hi Arie,
> > I am not sure I understand what LINK does to help when both receivers are on
> > the same freq. What does F9-F12 below do to help?
> > Tnx
> > N2TK, Tony
> .....
> > - F9 = listen A-B
> > - F10 = listen A-A
> > - F11 = listen B-B
> > - F12 contains the commands to copy VFO freq and mode from A to B and LINK
> > the VFO's.
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

--
73
Brendan EI6IZ

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Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

Vic,

When the K3 is in diversity, it is in diversity, meaning that Main RX is
on left ear and Sub Rx on right ear. This cannot be changed.
Often, it is convenient to switch to only one antenna and one audio
instead of two. So if a signal is really good on the Sub RX, I switch to
B-B, meaning both ears hear the Sub RX audio. After finishing the QSO I
switch back to A-B, the normal diversity audio and go on in diversity.
This trick cannot be done if the K3 is in diversity. So I have the K3 in
LINK-mode so that both VFO's stay toghether on the same frequencies.

If the audio switching would be available when the K3 is in diversity
mode, I would not need LINK. Now it is my way of working around this.

73
Arie PA3A

Vic Rosenthal schreef op 16-2-2015 om 9:22:
> I don't understand. The K3 directly supports dual diversity reception. The beta makes it possible to enter diversity mode with a normal hold of the SUB button instead of the previously required long hold.
>
> The LINK function makes the two VFOs tune together, and they can be on the same frequency. But it isn't needed for diversity and would be clumsy to use for that purpose for several reasons (extra button pushes to equalize frequencies, bandwidth, etc.; possible need to change audio mixing setting).
>
> LINK is not the same as diversity, and I have never figured out what it is good for.
>
> Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO
>

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

While reading this email thread, I just realized that many people don't know how to operate their K3s! Eliminating the LINK function should not cripple the diversity function, let alone eliminate it. I'm yet to read an example that would convince me about the usefulness of the function. In my opinion, the LINK function is a feature that I still don't understand why someone at Aptos bothered to program in the K3. As Don pointed out, the only use of this feature would be if a DX station was moving its TX frequency while working SPLIT. In more than 20 years as a ham chasing DX, I have never ever seen a DX station do that (it's kind of silly to do that because it would put in disadvantage the majority the DX'ers using other transceivers).
Sorry for my bluntness....
73,Robert-KP4Y

On Monday, February 16, 2015 5:22 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:

Link uses both VFO's, with VFO A controlling main RX and VFO B
controlling sub RX. Diversity uses only VFO A on *both* main RX and
sub RX.

Link memorizes the difference between VFO A and VFO B and maintains
VFO B at that difference while VFO A is being tuned. If you do A>B
before link, it will still be two synthesizers that are not locked,
just have the same current input parameters. In my case when I do this
I rarely hear the band noise spreading out into the band noise "sound
stage" needed for digging out weak discreet CW signals.

Diversity is a phase lock between the two RX using the same set of
frequency generating sources for both RX. This always produces the
band noise sound stage.

Note that the sound stage is not something generated in the K3. That
is done in our minds by the same mechanism that allows us to pick out
a single voice in a crowded noisy cafeteria. The band noise is spread
out around the "audio horizon" or "sound stage" in my "mind's ear". A
discrete signal is in one place on the sound stage. My mind easily
picks the discrete sound out of the spread-around noise.

This is very much the same thing as listening to a stereo recording of
an orchestra that begins with audience buzz, which is all over the
audio horizon in my mind's ear. When the music begins I hear the
violins to the left, though spread out a bit. I hear the tuba at a
specific spot on the right.

Once a K3 diversity RX operator has learned to use "sound stage"
diversity, it is easily an S unit advantage on RX for a station at or
in the noise that you can't see on the S meter.

For me diversity is always on 160 through 40. Anything that craps
diversity, for me throws away an S unit.

If you are not getting the sound stage trying to use diversity, you
really are not getting the benefit, and have some fun ahead of you
when you do.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Tom Blahovici <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Joe,
> I guess there is some confusion then as to the function of Link.
> Myself, I thought it was solely there for diversity mode.
> So, how else would one use the Link function? What is its purpose?
> Thanks
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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wayne burdick

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

Administrator

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

Johnny,

We have not abandoned the LINK function. It is available in the menu, and can be assigned to a programmable function switch. There's also an LN remote-control command that remains unchanged. It can be used from a computer or embedded in K3 front panel switch macros.

But we decided to remove it from the SUB switch, because so many operators have accidentally gotten into LINK when the intent was to simply turn on the sub receiver or put it into diversity mode. This has resulted in many phone calls to customer support.

Many K3 users have commented that they appreciate the removal of LINK from the SUB switch.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 15, 2015, at 4:51 PM, Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Arie,
> I agree with you 'LINK' should not be abandoned. Please excuse my language, I would consider the idea of abandoning the 'LINK' is stupid.
> During APDXC 2012 in Icom HQ Osaka, I spoke to Mr. Inoue JA3FA that I did not understand why IC7800 did not have the function of LINK for both VFOA & B so that I could use the dual receivers for diversity reception. I also mentioned that their competitor K3 had that function which I often used.
> Skillful use of diversity reception will enable you to pick up the odds even with simple antennae.
> 73
> Johnny VR2XMC
> 寄件人︰ Arie Kleingeld PA3A <[hidden email]>
> 收件人︰ [hidden email]
> 傳送日期︰ 2015年02月16日 (週一) 1:10 AM
> 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK
>
> Tony
>
> LINK ties both VFO's to the mail freq dial en keeps them insync when you
> turn the dial knob.
> So both receivers keep working on the same freq.
>
> What I often use i diversity listening so with two receivers and two
> antennas on the samen freq.
> Diversity puts the main RX audio on the left ear of the headset, and the
> Sub on the right ear. That's the normal situation.
> In my case, the F9-F12 buttons in N1MM contain commands to the K3 that
> switch the audio to my liking (that can also be done in the Config, but
> that takes too much time during QSO) This way I can switch listening
> from diversity (listen both MainRX and SubRX at same time) to only main
> RX (main RX audio on both ears) or only sub RX (Sub RX audio on both
> ears) depending on where the signal is best.
> The commands to do this are in the programmers manual of the K3. It's
> really fun to control some beautiful K3 features from the keyboard like
> this.
>
> 73
> Arie PA3A
>
>
>
>
>
>
> N2TK, Tony schreef op 15-2-2015 om 16:38:
>> Hi Arie,
>> I am not sure I understand what LINK does to help when both receivers are on
>> the same freq. What does F9-F12 below do to help?
>> Tnx
>> N2TK, Tony
> .....
>> - F9 = listen A-B
>> - F10 = listen A-A
>> - F11 = listen B-B
>> - F12 contains the commands to copy VFO freq and mode from A to B and LINK
>> the VFO's.
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Dwayne WV5I

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

Is there a possibility that the Link menu option include "Nor" as a
default to keep the K3's button functionality the same as the manual
describes and for those that want to keep it? Link OFF would remove LINK
from the button as proposed. Keep the macro command for those that want
to use it.

73,
Dwayne WV5I

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Gary Smith-2

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Here's an example where LINK was helpful to me:

In the early AM I was calling CQ in CQWW160 and heard what I knew was
someone just the very least bit above the noise level come back to
me. I was using a HI-Z Triangular for Rx with the main and the
sloper/INV-L Hybrid for the sub. I went to just the main and couldn't
copy the signal and then went to LINK and with that I could barely
make out JH0BBE. I could absolutely not do so otherwise at that
moment. I just received his QSL for that Q in the mail and his is on
the way back to him.

The difference at that time between Main/Diversity/LINK was
incredibly little but selecting through them at that time provided me
with a new multiplier. There is I believe an attenuation when using
Diversity which normally is insignificant but in rare & marginal
cases, hearing both signals without any attenuation can make the
difference.

To me, the use of Diversity is almost always an improvement to
readability but not 100% of the time. I would never give up the use
of my Sub Rx, it is magnificent and invaluable to me. Sometimes LINK
is useful.

Flame suit on.

73,
Gary
KA1J

> While reading this email thread, I just realized that many people don't know how to operate their K3s! Eliminating the LINK function should not cripple the diversity function, let alone eliminate it. I'm yet to read an example that would convince me about the usefulness of the function. In my opinion, the LINK function is a feature that I still don't understand why someone at Aptos bothered to program in the K3. As Don pointed out, the only use of this feature would be if a DX station was moving its TX frequency while working SPLIT. In more than 20 years as a ham chasing DX, I have never ever seen a DX station do that (it's kind of silly to do that because it would put in disadvantage the majority the DX'ers using other transceivers).
> Sorry for my bluntness....
> 73,Robert-KP4Y
>
> On Monday, February 16, 2015 5:22 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Link uses both VFO's, with VFO A controlling main RX and VFO B
> controlling sub RX. Diversity uses only VFO A on *both* main RX and
> sub RX.
>
> Link memorizes the difference between VFO A and VFO B and maintains
> VFO B at that difference while VFO A is being tuned. If you do A>B
> before link, it will still be two synthesizers that are not locked,
> just have the same current input parameters. In my case when I do this
> I rarely hear the band noise spreading out into the band noise "sound
> stage" needed for digging out weak discreet CW signals.
>
> Diversity is a phase lock between the two RX using the same set of
> frequency generating sources for both RX. This always produces the
> band noise sound stage.
>
> Note that the sound stage is not something generated in the K3. That
> is done in our minds by the same mechanism that allows us to pick out
> a single voice in a crowded noisy cafeteria. The band noise is spread
> out around the "audio horizon" or "sound stage" in my "mind's ear". A
> discrete signal is in one place on the sound stage. My mind easily
> picks the discrete sound out of the spread-around noise.
>
> This is very much the same thing as listening to a stereo recording of
> an orchestra that begins with audience buzz, which is all over the
> audio horizon in my mind's ear. When the music begins I hear the
> violins to the left, though spread out a bit. I hear the tuba at a
> specific spot on the right.
>
> Once a K3 diversity RX operator has learned to use "sound stage"
> diversity, it is easily an S unit advantage on RX for a station at or
> in the noise that you can't see on the S meter.
>
> For me diversity is always on 160 through 40. Anything that craps
> diversity, for me throws away an S unit.
>
> If you are not getting the sound stage trying to use diversity, you
> really are not getting the benefit, and have some fun ahead of you
> when you do.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Tom Blahovici <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Joe,
> > I guess there is some confusion then as to the function of Link.
> > Myself, I thought it was solely there for diversity mode.
> > So, how else would one use the Link function? What is its purpose?
> > Thanks
> > ______________________________________________________________
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>
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wayne burdick

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

Administrator

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

LINK was added as the initial hold function of SUB because, at the time, we hadn't realized how important diversity mode would become to K3 users. We later added SUB as a "long hold," which overloaded this switch (now three functions). This has been a continual source of complaints since we added the KRX3 option. Many users have trouble making the selection, because of the need to time the switch hold.

Providing LINK as a menu entry, instead, has been on my list since the Pleistocene, and I finally got around to it. I tested this change on a large group of field testers (30+), and the response was overwhelmingly positive. That is why the change is now in the beta release (regular hold of SUB selecting DIVersity mode).

Note that the SUB switch doesn't even have a labeled hold function on the panel. You can chalk this up to our indecisiveness on what, exactly, it would be. But in a future run of K3 front panels it is likely to become "DIV" (diversity), eliminating the ambiguity.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 15, 2015, at 11:40 PM, Vic Rosenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I never, ever use LINK. I use diversity often. I like the beta because it enables me to use the SUB button to toggle diversity, thus freeing up one of the programmable function keys for something else. I found the long hold unusable.
>
> Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO
>
>> On Feb 16, 2015, at 12:30 AM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Leave LINK as it is please.
>>
>> I wonder what the majority of k3 owners think?
>>
>> Gary
>> Vk1ZZ
>> K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3.
> ______________________________________________________________
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wb6rse1

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by Gary Smith-2

The CPU between my ears is what the L vs R phase difference processes in Diversity mode. I can get a somewhat similar affect using AFX (or the equivalent with a Heil headset that has a phase reversal switch) but significantly without the benefit of the phase difference of the received signal from two different antennas in Diversity RX.

I never use LINK. When my K3 is in LINK mode, I stare at the front panel until I realize it's operator error. I’ve seen this all to often when a DXpedition using a K3 thinks he’s split but is actually working guys on his TX frequency. An unfortunate bonanza for the all to eager lid police.

Steve WB6RSE

> On Feb 16, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Gary Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The difference at that time between Main/Diversity/LINK was
> incredibly little but selecting through them at that time provided me
> with a new multiplier. There is I believe an attenuation when using
> Diversity which normally is insignificant but in rare & marginal
> cases, hearing both signals without any attenuation can make the
> difference.
>
> To me, the use of Diversity is almost always an improvement to
> readability but not 100% of the time. I would never give up the use
> of my Sub Rx, it is magnificent and invaluable to me. Sometimes LINK
> is useful.
>

Oliver Dröse

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

> Note that the SUB switch doesn't even have a labeled hold function
> on the panel. You can chalk this up to our indecisiveness on what,
> exactly, it would be. But in a future run of K3 front panels it is
likely
> to become "DIV" (diversity), eliminating the ambiguity.

And I thought there's no hold function label beneath the SUB button
because there is no space for it. ;-)

73, Olli - DH8BQA

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Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

My experience with LINK is all bad.

If I'm in LINK I most likely don't know what is going on. It gets
turned on in those gray hours in a contest when my really thinking
brain has gone somewhere in the warm Caribbean to take a long nap. All
left manning the rig is a brute beast that functions on rote. If the
solution isn't already a habit, it probably can't think its way out of
a paper bag.

Getting caught with LINK one time had me listening to what my foggy
brain concluded was an attempt to take over my run frequency. In fact
it was the occupant of a frequency about 40 kHz away. I of course
tried to operate through him to make him go away, including losing
some number of weakies I couldn't copy with that racket going on.

It took five or ten minutes to realize that all the racket was in my
right ear and the offending run station was not on my S-meter. Then,
to get me back to diversity, I had to turn SUB off, and do the long
hold on SUB, which I didn't get right the first two times, probably
for the same reason I wound up in LINK the first time. And in the
piddling trying to get diversity back on, I didn't transmit enough and
DID lose the run frequency for real.

At least I didn't send the up 40 fellow a flame email after the
contest like I did one time, when I didn't figure it out until the
next day after I'd had some sleep.

I don't want to take LINK away from anyone who likes or uses it, but
removing the ghastly SUB-LINK-DIVERSITY sequence of old, with two
kinds of HOLD, is a godsend. Thank you Wayne,

Others seem to really diss diversity. And their commentary convinces
me that some have not been doing sound-stage diversity correctly if at
all. Sound-stage diversity DOES require at minimum a separate antenna
on the sub RX, even if on 160 this is listening to your 80 inverted
vee on the sub RX (not all that bad, the first thing I tried). Sound
stage diversity does require phase-locking the two RX. Often listening
diversity on two separately oriented RX antennas will seem to improve
the performance of BOTH receive antennas.

If one's idea of diversity includes the notion that going into
diversity knocks down the main RX level, you really don't have it set
up, and have a pleasant surprise awaiting discovery.

73, Guy K2AV

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Oliver Dröse <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Note that the SUB switch doesn't even have a labeled hold function
>> on the panel. You can chalk this up to our indecisiveness on what,
>> exactly, it would be. But in a future run of K3 front panels it is likely
>> to become "DIV" (diversity), eliminating the ambiguity.
>
> And I thought there's no hold function label beneath the SUB button because
> there is no space for it. ;-)
>
> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>
>
>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

In reply to this post by wb6rse1

On Mon,2/16/2015 9:18 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> The CPU between my ears is what the L vs R phase difference processes in Diversity mode. I can get a somewhat similar affect using AFX (or the equivalent with a Heil headset that has a phase reversal switch) but significantly without the benefit of the phase difference of the received signal from two different antennas in Diversity RX.

You (and Heil) are using the word "phase" incorrectly when you talk
about "reversing" it. What that switch is doing is reversing the
POLARITY. Polarity has two values -- normal and inverted. Polarity is
the same for all frequencies. Bob Heil, who claims to be the audio guru
should know better -- the word polarity has been used in this manner in
pro audio for nearly 40 years.

Phase is a continuously variable function measured in degrees (or
radians), has the range of +/- infinity. Phase has no meaning for
signals of different frequencies. When phase differences are the result
of time differences between two signals of the same frequency (for
example, a direct signal and a reflected one), the phase difference is
proportional to the time difference. These multiple arrivals cause what
we hear as "picket fencing" at VHF and UHF, and long slow fades on the
lower frequency bands (including 160M). The peaks occur when direct and
reflected are more nearly in phase, the dips occur when direct and
reflected are nearly equal in amplitude but close to 180 degrees out of
phase.

Another example -- when we use lengths of feedline to provide phase
shift for antenna arrays, the amount of phase shift depends on the
frequency. If we want two antennas to be driven precisely in phase over
a broad frequency range (for example, wide bands like 160M, 80M, and
10M), we should use two lines of equal length. A half-wave (or multiple
of half-waves) will provide the desired phase relationship at a single
design frequency, but a different value away from that frequency.

73, Jim K9YC

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Clive Lorton

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

On 16/02/2015 19:27, Jim Brown wrote:
> You (and Heil) are using the word "phase" incorrectly when you talk
> about "reversing" it. What that switch is doing is reversing the
> POLARITY. Polarity has two values -- normal and inverted. Polarity is
> the same for all frequencies. Bob Heil, who claims to be the audio
> guru should know better -- the word polarity has been used in this
> manner in pro audio for nearly 40 years.
I understand the word polarity and I understand the word phase after 40
years in the audio industry I've never known a loudspeaker (or other
transducer) to be out of polarity.

From Wikipedia: *"Phase difference* is the difference, expressed in
degrees or time, between two waves having the same frequency and
referenced to the same point in
time.^<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_%28waves%29#cite_note-Ballou2005-1>
Two oscillators that have the same frequency and no phase difference are
said to be *in phase*. Two oscillators that have the same frequency and
different phases have a phase difference, and the oscillators are said
to be *out of phase* with each other."

Clive G8POC
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Stephen G4SJP

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

To my simple minded (physics) view of things, polarity is to do with the
direction in which the loudspeaker cone moves for a given direction of
audio frequency current (Fleming's left hand rule etc.). So if two
speakers have the same "polarity" then they will both move forwards or
backwards at the same time, irrespective of the frequency (assuming they
are being fed with the same signal of course!). Phase differences can only
have any meaning for a given frequency and can have maximum values of +/-
180 deg, +/- pi rads etc.

It is easy to see how the confusion can exist. Interestingly, an old pair
of AR speakers I own have a 'polarity' switch.

73, Stephen G4SJP

On 16 February 2015 at 19:47, Clive Lorton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16/02/2015 19:27, Jim Brown wrote:
>
>> You (and Heil) are using the word "phase" incorrectly when you talk about
>> "reversing" it. What that switch is doing is reversing the POLARITY.
>> Polarity has two values -- normal and inverted. Polarity is the same for
>> all frequencies. Bob Heil, who claims to be the audio guru should know
>> better -- the word polarity has been used in this manner in pro audio for
>> nearly 40 years.
>>
> I understand the word polarity and I understand the word phase after 40
> years in the audio industry I've never known a loudspeaker (or other
> transducer) to be out of polarity.
>
> From Wikipedia: *"Phase difference* is the difference, expressed in
> degrees or time, between two waves having the same frequency and referenced
> to the same point in time.^<http://en.wikipedia.
> org/wiki/Phase_%28waves%29#cite_note-Ballou2005-1> Two oscillators that
> have the same frequency and no phase difference are said to be *in phase*.
> Two oscillators that have the same frequency and different phases have a
> phase difference, and the oscillators are said to be *out of phase* with
> each other."
>
> Clive G8POC
> ______________________________________________________________
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Tony Estep

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Prior <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> ... polarity is to do with the direction in which the loudspeaker cone
> moves for a given direction of
> audio frequency current (Fleming's left hand rule etc.). So if two
> speakers have the same "polarity" then they will both move forwards or
> backwards at the same time...

===========
I realize this discussion is kinda pointless and not worth prolonging, but
nonetheless... it seems that if both speakers go in and out at the same
time, the resulting sound waves would be in phase; whereas if one speaker
goes out when the other goes in, the sound waves would be considered to be
out of phase (i.e. the compressions and the rarefactions would cancel). So
at least in the case of a pair of speakers sitting side-by-side and fed
with the same audio, switching the so-called "polarity" of one would indeed
change its phase relative to the other by 180 deg.

Tony KT0NY
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Josh Fiden

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

That disregards the spacial separation between the speakers. True if the
listener is equidistant from the speakers and only has one ear!

73,
Josh W6XU

On 2/16/2015 2:52 PM, Tony Estep wrote:
> it seems that if both speakers go in and out at the same
> time, the resulting sound waves would be in phase; whereas if one speaker
> goes out when the other goes in, the sound waves would be considered to be
> out of phase (i.e. the compressions and the rarefactions would cancel).

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wayne burdick

Re: K3 Beta 5r10 and LINK

Administrator

In reply to this post by Oliver Dröse

Good eye, Olli. It would actually go off to the side of the switch in this case.

Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 16, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Oliver Dröse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Note that the SUB switch doesn't even have a labeled hold function
> > on the panel. You can chalk this up to our indecisiveness on what,
> > exactly, it would be. But in a future run of K3 front panels it is likely
> > to become "DIV" (diversity), eliminating the ambiguity.
>
> And I thought there's no hold function label beneath the SUB button because there is no space for it. ;-)
>
> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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1234