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Breakers for KPA1500?

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Hisashi T Fujinaka

Breakers for KPA1500?

I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.

Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?

Thanks.

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email] K7EMI
BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
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Nr4c

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

What is the house circuit wire size used.

I think the breaker protects the house from fire due to overheated wiring.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Jul 9, 2018, at 12:24 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.
>
> Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email] K7EMI
> BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
> ______________________________________________________________
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Hisashi T Fujinaka

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

To the breaker box? It's new construction from the breaker box to the
amp.

On Mon, 9 Jul 2018, Nr4c wrote:

> What is the house circuit wire size used.
>
> I think the breaker protects the house from fire due to overheated wiring.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ...nr4c. bill
>
>
>> On Jul 9, 2018, at 12:24 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.
>>
>> Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
>> Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email] K7EMI
>> BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
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Roy Koeppe

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

In reply to this post by Hisashi T Fujinaka

Yes, that is what I am using.

73, Roy K6XK

I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.

Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

In reply to this post by Hisashi T Fujinaka

Actually, 20 amp breakers will work fine.
Use #12 wire and it will handle 20 amps. If the run is long, use #10
wire to reduce the voltage drop.

Elecraft recommends plugging into 195 to 250 VAC 50/60 Hz up to 20A.

73,
Don W3FPR

> I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.
>
> Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?
>
> Thanks.
>
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

In reply to this post by Roy Koeppe

I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from the
breakers to the amp operating position.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 7/9/2018 11:43 AM, Roy Koeppe wrote:

> Yes, that is what I am using.
>
> 73, Roy K6XK
>
>
> I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.
>
> Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Roy Koeppe

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

The KPA1500 uses a regulated power supply: input 195 to 250 vac. Voltage
loss in #12 wires is so small the regulator will laugh at that.

73, Roy K6XK

"I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from the
breakers to the amp operating position."

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 7/9/2018 11:43 AM, Roy Koeppe wrote:

> Yes, that is what I am using.
>
> 73, Roy K6XK
>
>
> I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.
>
> Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?
>
>
>

Josh Fiden

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

If wire run ends up being 50' you could see a 2V drop at 13A. Agree that switching supply in amp won't care. 26W of heat in the wire inside a wall would bug me.

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Jul 9, 2018, at 3:12 PM, Roy Koeppe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The KPA1500 uses a regulated power supply: input 195 to 250 vac. Voltage loss in #12 wires is so small the regulator will laugh at that.
>
> 73, Roy K6XK
>
>
> "I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from the
> breakers to the amp operating position."
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>> On 7/9/2018 11:43 AM, Roy Koeppe wrote:
>> Yes, that is what I am using.
>>
>> 73, Roy K6XK
>>
>>
>> I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.
>>
>> Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?
>>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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ke9uw

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

How many watts of heat does the average attic have in the summertime?

Chuck
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack

> On Jul 9, 2018, at 6:39 PM, Josh Fiden <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If wire run ends up being 50' you could see a 2V drop at 13A. Agree that switching supply in amp won't care. 26W of heat in the wire inside a wall would bug me.
>
> 73
> Josh W6XU
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
>> On Jul 9, 2018, at 3:12 PM, Roy Koeppe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The KPA1500 uses a regulated power supply: input 195 to 250 vac. Voltage loss in #12 wires is so small the regulator will laugh at that.
>>
>> 73, Roy K6XK
>>
>>
>> "I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from the
>> breakers to the amp operating position."
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Bob, K4TAX
>>
>>
>>> On 7/9/2018 11:43 AM, Roy Koeppe wrote:
>>> Yes, that is what I am using.
>>>
>>> 73, Roy K6XK
>>>
>>>
>>> I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.
>>>
>>> Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Chuck, KE9UW

Mark Goldberg

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

Actually, if you look at the NEC (National Electrical Code), they have
factors for ambient temp and wire temp ratings. Other codes around the
world are similar.

For example, if you use AWG 12 Type UF cable, the base rating is 20 Amps.
With the temperatures we have in Arizona, where it can get above 140F in an
attic, they have a correction factor of 0.71 if the wire is rated to 90C.
So it should only be used up to 14.2 Amps. If you are installing from
scratch, I would go to AWG 10 just for a safety factor. Of course, you may
not be here in Arizona. It actually may get hotter than that here in some
attics.

You can read the NEC for free by going here and signing up. It will tell
you more than you want to know, in excruciating detail. A copy will cost
ya, but I have found the online interface good enough to find things.

https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 4:49 PM, hawley, charles j jr <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> How many watts of heat does the average attic have in the summertime?
>
> Chuck
> KE9UW
>
> Sent from my iPhone, cjack
>
> > On Jul 9, 2018, at 6:39 PM, Josh Fiden <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > If wire run ends up being 50' you could see a 2V drop at 13A. Agree that
> switching supply in amp won't care. 26W of heat in the wire inside a wall
> would bug me.
> >
> > 73
> > Josh W6XU
> >
> > Sent from my mobile device
> >
> >> On Jul 9, 2018, at 3:12 PM, Roy Koeppe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> The KPA1500 uses a regulated power supply: input 195 to 250 vac.
> Voltage loss in #12 wires is so small the regulator will laugh at that.
> >>
> >> 73, Roy K6XK
> >>
> >>
> >> "I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from
> the
> >> breakers to the amp operating position."
> >>
> >> 73
> >>
> >> Bob, K4TAX
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 7/9/2018 11:43 AM, Roy Koeppe wrote:
> >>> Yes, that is what I am using.
> >>>
> >>> 73, Roy K6XK
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I probably missed this but my google searches aren't working either.
> >>>
> >>> Will 2x 20A breakers (220v) be sufficient for the KPA1500?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
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> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

On 7/9/2018 12:26 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from
> the breakers to the amp operating position.

Not only a suggestion -- it's the law! Electrical Codes carry the force
of law, and they require that the equipment ground must 1) run with the
current carrying conductors and 2) must be no smaller than the largest
conductor.

73, Jim K9YC

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

For the 240 volt service to my operating position, I have a total run of
75 ft from the breaker panel to the amp outlet. I installed #10 - 3
w/ground with a dual 20A breaker in the panel. Even though most of the
run is in the attic, 90ºC rating is adequate in as much as it is not in
conduit. If installed in conduit, it must be derated. When you put
Romex inside conduit the Romex cannot breathe and retains too much heat.
Hence the reason for derating.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 7/9/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 7/9/2018 12:26 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from
>> the breakers to the amp operating position.
>
> Not only a suggestion -- it's the law! Electrical Codes carry the
> force of law, and they require that the equipment ground must 1) run
> with the current carrying conductors and 2) must be no smaller than
> the largest conductor.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Again, it's law only to the extent that the county (a) has adopted it,
(b) that it's remotely current (no pun intended) and (c) there are
permits with inspections after the install.

None of that exists here, I presume it's similar in other counties as
well. The only factor after that is the insurance company, which may
choose to EXCEED the existing code(s) which directly affects the pocketbook.

However, I CHOOSE to follow the code because it's good sense. Any
contractor I hire is required (by me) to do the same.

Rick nhc N Idaho

On 7/9/2018 5:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

While I certainly would recommend conservative design, so long as it’s a KPA-1500 you’re powering don’t worry so much.You won’t be running continuous duty cycle, so the heating of the wire is of less concern.

It would be a bigger concern if the circuit was used on a continuous duty cycle load such as a space heater or air conditioner.

73 - Jim K8MR

> On Jul 9, 2018, at 9:23 PM, Rick WA6NHC <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Again, it's law only to the extent that the county (a) has adopted it, (b) that it's remotely current (no pun intended) and (c) there are permits with inspections after the install.
>
> None of that exists here, I presume it's similar in other counties as well. The only factor after that is the insurance company, which may choose to EXCEED the existing code(s) which directly affects the pocketbook.
>
> However, I CHOOSE to follow the code because it's good sense. Any contractor I hire is required (by me) to do the same.
>
> Rick nhc N Idaho
>
>

Phil Kane-2

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

On 7/9/2018 6:23 PM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

> The only factor after that is the insurance company, which may choose to
> EXCEED the existing code(s) which directly affects the pocketbook.

In my grad school days, I was a mentor to a HS kid whose dad was an
insurance company safety engineer in the pre-OSHA days and later became
a state-OSHA manager. I will always remember him saying that if a
local inspector finds a safety violation, he will give you 30, 60, or
even 90 days to correct it, but if the insurance company inspector finds
the violation, they can impose a 24 or 48 hour deadline or the coverage
will be suspended. I can believe that!

The kid, BTW, did become a ham after finishing law school but passed
away a few years ago.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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N2TK

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

I do not understand the need for three wires plus ground. For a clothes dryer outlet a neutral is required to get 110VAC from one of the phases to the neutral. But for amps you only need both phases and a ground. The plugs are three wire, not four.
73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 8:40 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Breakers for KPA1500?

On 7/9/2018 12:26 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from
> the breakers to the amp operating position.

Not only a suggestion -- it's the law! Electrical Codes carry the force of law, and they require that the equipment ground must 1) run with the current carrying conductors and 2) must be no smaller than the largest conductor.

73, Jim K9YC

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

I split off with a 120 volt duplex outlet from L1 and another from L2
and I have a 240 volt outlet for the amp. Thus both neutral and ground
are needed for the 120 volt duplex outlets. The configuration is very
adequate, legal, and safe for the entire station.

73

Bob, K4TAZ

On 7/10/2018 6:06 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote:

> I do not understand the need for three wires plus ground. For a clothes dryer outlet a neutral is required to get 110VAC from one of the phases to the neutral. But for amps you only need both phases and a ground. The plugs are three wire, not four.
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 8:40 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Breakers for KPA1500?
>
> On 7/9/2018 12:26 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from
>> the breakers to the amp operating position.
> Not only a suggestion -- it's the law! Electrical Codes carry the force of law, and they require that the equipment ground must 1) run with the current carrying conductors and 2) must be no smaller than the largest conductor.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Don Wilhelm

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

In reply to this post by N2TK

Tony,

While it is possible and safe to use only two wires plug safety ground
(Green Wire Ground) for a 240 volt receptacle or 240 volt only device
(in-home air conditioner, dryer, etc), it is quite unsafe to split off
for a 120 volt supply using one hot and ground - in that case (such as a
range that has a 120 volt outlet on it or a 120 volt fan) you MUST run 3
conductors plus ground.
The ground wire should never carry current.
An inspector would never approve it, and if you value your insurance
coverage, don't try it - it will be found after the fire!

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/10/2018 7:06 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote:

> I do not understand the need for three wires plus ground. For a clothes dryer outlet a neutral is required to get 110VAC from one of the phases to the neutral. But for amps you only need both phases and a ground. The plugs are three wire, not four.
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 8:40 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Breakers for KPA1500?
>
> On 7/9/2018 12:26 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from
>> the breakers to the amp operating position.
>
> Not only a suggestion -- it's the law! Electrical Codes carry the force of law, and they require that the equipment ground must 1) run with the current carrying conductors and 2) must be no smaller than the largest conductor.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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N2TK

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

Don,
I did not in any way suggest using the ground wire for current. But many appliances such as the KPA1500, air compressors, water heater, etc. are 220VAC devices that only require 2 wires plus ground. If you look at the plugs on many of these type devices there are only three prongs - each phase plus ground. There is no need for a neutral wire.
Yes, appliances like ovens and dryers where there is a need for 110 VAC besides 220VAC do need the neutral wire, hence the 4-wire plug.

I was commenting on the mention below of using 3 wires plus ground for the amp. I can't see how that is necessary for a dedicated outlet for the amp. 2 wires plus ground is quite sufficient.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:54 AM
To: N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Breakers for KPA1500?

Tony,

While it is possible and safe to use only two wires plug safety ground (Green Wire Ground) for a 240 volt receptacle or 240 volt only device (in-home air conditioner, dryer, etc), it is quite unsafe to split off for a 120 volt supply using one hot and ground - in that case (such as a range that has a 120 volt outlet on it or a 120 volt fan) you MUST run 3 conductors plus ground.
The ground wire should never carry current.
An inspector would never approve it, and if you value your insurance coverage, don't try it - it will be found after the fire!

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/10/2018 7:06 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote:

> I do not understand the need for three wires plus ground. For a clothes dryer outlet a neutral is required to get 110VAC from one of the phases to the neutral. But for amps you only need both phases and a ground. The plugs are three wire, not four.
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 8:40 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Breakers for KPA1500?
>
> On 7/9/2018 12:26 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from
>> the breakers to the amp operating position.
>
> Not only a suggestion -- it's the law! Electrical Codes carry the force of law, and they require that the equipment ground must 1) run with the current carrying conductors and 2) must be no smaller than the largest conductor.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm

Re: Breakers for KPA1500?

Yes Tony,

I added that bit in case someone wanted to get 120 volts from the 2 wire
plus ground receptacle.
While it will work if you use the ground wire as the neutral conductor,
it is a severe violation of code to do so, and it is highly dangerous
from a safety standpoint.

The KPA1500 is a pluggable device, not a hard-wired device (unlike a
range or a full house air conditioner).

In fact for wiring our air conditioner compressor, I ran 3 wires plus
ground (because that is what I had on hand), and the inspector required
that the 3rd conductor NOT be connected to anything, so it works both ways.

The way I see it:
If the device is permanently wired in, 2 wires and ground is desired and
sufficient.
If the device plugs into a receptacle with the possibility of adding a
120 volt receptacle from that wiring box, run 3 wires plus ground.
The neutral wire will be left unused unless a 4 wire receptacle or a 3
wire receptacle AND one or more 120 volt receptacles are added to the
box in the wall.

73,
Don W3FPR.

On 7/10/2018 10:10 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote:

> Don,
> I did not in any way suggest using the ground wire for current. But many appliances such as the KPA1500, air compressors, water heater, etc. are 220VAC devices that only require 2 wires plus ground. If you look at the plugs on many of these type devices there are only three prongs - each phase plus ground. There is no need for a neutral wire.
> Yes, appliances like ovens and dryers where there is a need for 110 VAC besides 220VAC do need the neutral wire, hence the 4-wire plug.
>
> I was commenting on the mention below of using 3 wires plus ground for the amp. I can't see how that is necessary for a dedicated outlet for the amp. 2 wires plus ground is quite sufficient.
>
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:54 AM
> To: N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Breakers for KPA1500?
>
> Tony,
>
> While it is possible and safe to use only two wires plug safety ground (Green Wire Ground) for a 240 volt receptacle or 240 volt only device (in-home air conditioner, dryer, etc), it is quite unsafe to split off for a 120 volt supply using one hot and ground - in that case (such as a range that has a 120 volt outlet on it or a 120 volt fan) you MUST run 3 conductors plus ground.
> The ground wire should never carry current.
> An inspector would never approve it, and if you value your insurance coverage, don't try it - it will be found after the fire!
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/10/2018 7:06 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote:
>> I do not understand the need for three wires plus ground. For a clothes dryer outlet a neutral is required to get 110VAC from one of the phases to the neutral. But for amps you only need both phases and a ground. The plugs are three wire, not four.
>> 73,
>> N2TK, Tony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
>> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 8:40 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Breakers for KPA1500?
>>
>> On 7/9/2018 12:26 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>>> I would also suggest using three - #10 with ground as the line from
>>> the breakers to the amp operating position.
>> Not only a suggestion -- it's the law! Electrical Codes carry the force of law, and they require that the equipment ground must 1) run with the current carrying conductors and 2) must be no smaller than the largest conductor.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
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>> [hidden email]
>>
>