CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Gary K9GS]

Hello Phil,

I respectively disagree Phil.  I can absolutely, positively, 100%
GUARANTEE that a major CW was never won by someone using a CW decoder.  
I'd even stick my neck out and say that no one has ever broken into the
top 10.  I also don't think software will ever surpass the human brain
for decoding CW.

The purpose of CW skimmers for contesting is not so much to decode
callsigns as it is to fill the bandmap of available stations to work.

At the end of this month is the biggie....CQWW CW.  Please take a few
minutes and listen, really listen, to one of the big stations work a
pileup running stations.  Then switch on your CW decoder and see how
that works.  It will open your eyes.......


On 11/8/2012 4:21 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> I can see that someone might want to use a K3 CW decode or a computer decode program like CW Skimmer when operating a contest.  After you set things up, very little real CW skill is necessary to be a CW contest player.  Indeed, many probably do just that.
>
> Ultimately of course, the software will get better and the instance of the human operator will no longer be necessary.  Some future glorified computer program can play the game all by itself.  You can even schedule your computer program to startup when the contest schedules begin and stop when they end.  Of course, total control of your rig by remote is included.
>
> Cool -- just think, I could be off doing more interesting things while operating a contest from my Mac hosted computer application.  I could be a high scorer -- I could win!  I would be the contesting CW champ.  Or, at least my program would be but no one need know that.
>
> The best part is that during the contest and during all those automated hours or cranking up my score at 2.7 GHz CPU speeds, I can be out in the wilds nearby with my wire antenna thrown into the nearest tree and operating QRP CW from my KX3 using my Begali paddle.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
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--


73,

Gary K9GS

Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
CW Ops #1032   http://www.cwops.org

************************************************

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[M5FRA - Colin]

I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you
can click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO'
to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the
screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running
long enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP?
No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an
antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog
and let it run? Is that what the hobby has come to?
 
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
 
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


------ Original Message ------
From: "Fred Smith" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Jim Dunstan'" <[hidden email]>;[hidden email]
Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's just
>a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for digital
>modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to where we can
>work stations that could never be worked on CW and even with QRP. I enjoy
>speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long then I want to hang up
>also.
>
>

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[N0AZZ]

I'm finished with this thread to many people making statements that have no
real world experience using the latest CW software. And worst of all not a
clue as to how many complete canned responses they get during a contest. The
only way to know is if the op is using a key is if he has such a poor fist
you can't understand him. In a DX pileup all it takes is to push 2 buttons
on the front of the K3 and the CW contact finished you've read it on the
P3/SVGA screen Wonderful!!!

Thanks for all the useful comments posted and everyone have a great
"Veterans Day" and remember all those who fought for our country. Even now
and our standing in the world and at home.

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you can
click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO'
to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the
screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running long
enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP?
No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an
antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog and let
it run? Is that what the hobby has come to?
 
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
 
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


------ Original Message ------
From: "Fred Smith" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Jim Dunstan'" <[hidden email]>;[hidden email]
Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's
>just a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for
>digital modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to
>where we can work stations that could never be worked on CW and even
>with QRP. I enjoy speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long
>then I want to hang up also.
>
>

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[Julian, G4ILO]

You could try KComm. It works with the K3's own keyer and decoder. It works with the KX3 too.

W7GJ, Lance wrote

I have just bee introduced to N1MM, and that seems to work great with my K3 and
laptop computer, but it really seems geared for quick openings or working pileups.  
Is there something better suited to casual CW QSO's?

[M5FRA - Colin]

If that was directed at me Fred it is simply not true. My comments are
from experience not dogma.
73
 
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
 
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


------ Original Message ------
From: "Fred Smith" <[hidden email]>
To: "'M5FRA - Colin'" <[hidden email]>;[hidden email]
Sent: 09/11/2012 09:10:19
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

>I'm finished with this thread to many people making statements that have no
>real world experience using the latest CW software. And worst of all not a
>clue as to how many complete canned responses they get during a contest. The
>only way to know is if the op is using a key is if he has such a poor fist
>you can't understand him. In a DX pileup all it takes is to push 2 buttons
>on the front of the K3 and the CW contact finished you've read it on the
>P3/SVGA screen Wonderful!!!
>
>Thanks for all the useful comments posted and everyone have a great
>"Veterans Day" and remember all those who fought for our country. Even now
>and our standing in the world and at home.
>
>73,
>Fred/N0AZZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email]
>[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:38 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you can
>click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO'
>to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the
>screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running long
>enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP?
>No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an
>antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog and let
>it run? Is that what the hobby has come to?
>
>Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
>
>m5fra.org.uk <
>http://www.m5fra.org.uk>
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>From: "Fred Smith" <[hidden email]>
>To: "'Jim Dunstan'" <[hidden email]>;[hidden email]
>Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>>
>>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's
>>just a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for
>>digital modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to
>>where we can work stations that could never be worked on CW and even
>>with QRP. I enjoy speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long
>>then I want to hang up also.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by:
>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>

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[N0AZZ]

Colin

Not directed at any one person sorry if you took it that way, if it had been
your name would have been on it. But from your comments it sounded like you
had never used them and had an axe to grind. With the "just leave a computer
running and have DXCC" from that statement it became apparent your disdain
for others who do not share your exact opinions.

I enjoy all modes and whatever means others use to accomplish them is fine
with me as long as they follow the rules. It's a hobby one to be enjoyed I
do and I don't let little things bother me at all on either side of the pond
8>).

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 4:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

If that was directed at me Fred it is simply not true. My comments are from
experience not dogma.
73
 
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
 
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


------ Original Message ------
From: "Fred Smith" <[hidden email]>
To: "'M5FRA - Colin'" <[hidden email]>;[hidden email]
Sent: 09/11/2012 09:10:19
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

>I'm finished with this thread to many people making statements that
>have no real world experience using the latest CW software. And worst
>of all not a clue as to how many complete canned responses they get
>during a contest. The only way to know is if the op is using a key is
>if he has such a poor fist you can't understand him. In a DX pileup all
>it takes is to push 2 buttons on the front of the K3 and the CW contact
>finished you've read it on the P3/SVGA screen Wonderful!!!
>
>Thanks for all the useful comments posted and everyone have a great
>"Veterans Day" and remember all those who fought for our country. Even
>now and our standing in the world and at home.
>
>73,
>Fred/N0AZZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email]
>[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:38 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you
>can click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO'
>to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the
>screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running
>long enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP?
>No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an
>antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog
>and let it run? Is that what the hobby has come to?
>
>Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
>
>m5fra.org.uk <
>http://www.m5fra.org.uk>
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>From: "Fred Smith" <[hidden email]>
>To: "'Jim Dunstan'" <[hidden email]>;[hidden email]
>Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>>
>>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included
>>it's just a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are
>>made for digital modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65
>>modes to where we can work stations that could never be worked on CW
>>and even with QRP. I enjoy speaking to someone on the phone for only
>>for so long then I want to hang up also.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by:
>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>

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[Jim Douglass]

I agree with both sides of the discussion.

I was an Army trained cw/ RTTY intercept operator. Learned the morse
code and where the keys were on a typewriter one
very hot summer just outside of Boston  at a place called Fort Devens.
After that I was sent to radio-teletype school.
Years later I taught myself how to copy with a "stick" and to this day
still feel more comfortable copying it all down.

Spend 95% + of my time in amateur radio on the digital modes of cw (ears
only) and RTTY.

I also tell anyone who will listen that amateur radio has *so many*
areas of interest that losing interest in one area just opens up another
area.
This gives you the opportunity to try operating different modes,
building things, award chasing, public service and the list goes on and on.

And best of all the Xyl always knows where I am ....
  in the shack on piddling with new idea or trying something new the
backyard and not at the local pub!

~73 to all

Jim AC0E
On 11/8/2012 9:46 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Re: CW Decoding - Your Brain is best (stan levandowski)

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[Tim Herrick]

I challenge anyone using strictly software to copy CW to beat me in the next CQ WW WPX CW contest. I will use software only for
logging and sending. I will copy CW myself.

Mundane exchanges. I bet the Software messes up so many exchanges it gets disqualified.


73,
Tim Herrick, KQ8M
Charter Member North Coast Contesters
[hidden email]

AR-Cluster V6 kq8m.no-ip.org
User Ports: 23, 7373  with local skimmer, 7374 without local skimmer
Server Ports: V6 3607, V4 Active 3605, V4 Passive 3606


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 2:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you
can click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO'
to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the
screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running
long enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP?
No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an
antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog
and let it run? Is that what the hobby has come to?
 
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
 
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


------ Original Message ------
From: "Fred Smith" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Jim Dunstan'" <[hidden email]>;[hidden email]
Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's just
>a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for digital
>modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to where we can
>work stations that could never be worked on CW and even with QRP. I enjoy
>speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long then I want to hang up
>also.
>
>

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[Michael Usher AG6MK]

I also agree with both sides.  I have great respect for those who have learned this skill, and I'm trying to get there myself.

But I also see the value in computer assisted modes.

The question really is "how many dB is brain decoding worth?"

If the signal is strong and stable enough, a computer can be just as good as a brain -- but the brain will cope with weak signals better.

I work in the tech industry -- and I can read a raw byte stream from a sniffer and easily distinguish packet types, options, payload.  Do I use that technique for my email?  No -- it's more convenient for the computer to do all that for me.

It's always a tradeoff for what tools you choose to engage.

Is it cheating to use a notepad to write down the code?  Is it cheating to type the code you recognize on a keyboard into a note application (faster than writing)?

I think these decisions are all up to the operator.

The great thing about this hobby is that it accommodates all the different skill levels and styles of operation.

$0.02
Michael
AG6MK
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Hi guys,

While interesting, we are way exceeding the max posting limit per day on
a single topic. Let's end this thread at this time in the interest of
keeping list volume under control for our readers.

73,

Eric
List Moderator ---
www.elecraft.com

On 11/9/2012 7:32 AM, Michael Usher AG6MK wrote:
> I also agree with both sides.  I have great respect for those who have learned this skill, and I'm trying to get there myself.
>
> But I also see the value in computer assisted modes.
>
>

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[M5FRA - Colin]

I have nothing against digital modes having used RTTY for 40 years. And
I also use modes like Olivia. What bothers me is when the computer does
all the processing on its own without human intervention. I recently
used Opera and just sat there and watched the PC do the 'QSOs'. For me
ham radio is about people communicating and total PC control is just a
step too far.
 
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
 
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Douglass" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 09/11/2012 13:13:05
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

>I agree with both sides of the discussion.
>
>I was an Army trained cw/ RTTY intercept operator. Learned the morse
>code and where the keys were on a typewriter one
>very hot summer just outside of Boston  at a place called Fort Devens.
>After that I was sent to radio-teletype school.
>Years later I taught myself how to copy with a "stick" and to this day
>still feel more comfortable copying it all down.
>
>Spend 95% + of my time in amateur radio on the digital modes of cw (ears
>only) and RTTY.
>
>I also tell anyone who will listen that amateur radio has *so many*
>areas of interest that losing interest in one area just opens up another
>area.
>This gives you the opportunity to try operating different modes,
>building things, award chasing, public service and the list goes on and on.
>
>And best of all the Xyl always knows where I am ....
> in the shack on piddling with new idea or trying something new the
>backyard and not at the local pub!
>
>~73 to all
>
>Jim AC0E
>On 11/8/2012 9:46 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>>
>>Re: CW Decoding - Your Brain is best (stan levandowski)
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

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[w7aqk]

Hi All,

I'm not going to totally throw cold water on those trying to rely heavily on
the CW decoding capability of the K3 (and KX3), but I think you will be
mostly frustrated.  First of all, the decoding capability of these rigs is
heavily dependent on several factors, including a pretty good signal and
properly sent characters (including spacing).  Even if the characters are
well formed, you can still think you are getting some gibberish if the
spacing isn't correct--you have to focus on properly separating the
characters, and some ops really make that a chore!

I do appreciate the capability these rigs have, and even use it once in a
while--very seldom though.  One example is when I run across a handful of
ops on 40 meters who like to gather nearly every day and play "burn out"!  A
couple of these guys are going 40 wpm plus, and that is a bit too fast for
me--I get a lot of it, but not all.  Fortunately, they tend to send pretty
good code (I am suspicious that some of them may be using keyboards), so I
can "fill" in what I miss from the code reading feature on my K3 and KX3.
I'm not participating in the conversation, but use it for code practice.

Probably the biggest benefit of the code reader is when I am showing off the
radio to someone who doesn't know code.  Not only can they see what I am
hearing (at least most of it), they can see what I am sending as well.  The
abbreviations we use on CW will throw them a bit, but they tend to get the
gist of the conversation--I can explain the "shorthand" later.  This really
is helpful!  An observer's eyes can glaze over pretty quickly when all they
hear is a bunch of dits and dahs that have no meaning.  However, when they
can see that real information is being passed back and forth, and they can
interpret it, their attention span, and interest, is much greater.

I applaud Wayne and Lyle's efforts to try and make the code reading
capability better, but I am somewhat pessimistic that they will be able to
make substantial improvements.  I say that primarily because I think the
deficiencies of the sender are apt to be too great, and too variant, to
really overcome.  Too many ops out there just don't seem to be motivated to
try and emulate machine quality code.  I don't know, from a technical
standpoint, what adjustments Wayne and Lyle are trying to make, so I can't
really say with any certainty how successful they will be.  Perhaps they can
get the reader to accept variations in the "1 to 3" ratio more readily.
That could help I suppose.  I think they inferred that was one objective.
However, I don't know how you can ever overcome most of the spacing issues.
That's my biggest problem in just trying to copy CW, and it seems to be
where most code reading software tends to go sideways.  If someone is going
to insist on running characters together, only the human brain can probably
figure that out--eventually!  If you are dealing with weak signal problems
I'm not sure what improvements can be made.

I like the code reading capability on these rigs--it's clever and sometimes
beneficial.  However, I see very little promise of it becoming something an
operator can rely on primarily.  Your best chance of doing so is if
keyboards are being used.  However, if you do that, without being able to
translate things yourself, it really does become "just another digital
mode", and not much different than using something like PSK31.

Dave W7AQK


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Eric closed this thread.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 11:06 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

I have nothing against digital modes having used RTTY for 40 years. And I
also use modes like Olivia. What bothers me is when the computer does all
the processing on its own without human intervention. I recently used Opera
and just sat there and watched the PC do the 'QSOs'. For me ham radio is
about people communicating and total PC control is just a step too far.
 
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
 
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Douglass" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 09/11/2012 13:13:05
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

>I agree with both sides of the discussion.
>
>I was an Army trained cw/ RTTY intercept operator. Learned the morse
>code and where the keys were on a typewriter one very hot summer just
>outside of Boston  at a place called Fort Devens.
>After that I was sent to radio-teletype school.
>Years later I taught myself how to copy with a "stick" and to this day
>still feel more comfortable copying it all down.
>
>Spend 95% + of my time in amateur radio on the digital modes of cw
>(ears
>only) and RTTY.
>
>I also tell anyone who will listen that amateur radio has *so many*
>areas of interest that losing interest in one area just opens up
>another area.
>This gives you the opportunity to try operating different modes,
>building things, award chasing, public service and the list goes on and on.
>
>And best of all the Xyl always knows where I am ....
> in the shack on piddling with new idea or trying something new the
>backyard and not at the local pub!
>
>~73 to all
>
>Jim AC0E
>On 11/8/2012 9:46 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>>
>>Re: CW Decoding - Your Brain is best (stan levandowski)
>>
>
>
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>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
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>
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>http://www.qsl.net
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>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

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