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CW ID macro on SSB

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N1IRB

CW ID macro on SSB

Pardon me for what is probably a simple issue. I'm new to the K3 this fall and am fooling around with the macros. I'm trying to make one that will send my call in Morse while operating SSB. Kind of like a repeater does on 2m FM etc. I tried the following macro:

PC020;KS017;MD3;TX;KYWN1IRB;RX;MD1;PC100

It drops power to 20w; sets the CW rate to 17wpm; sets mode to CW; turns on TX; sends my call; turns off tx; returns to LSB; and sets power back to 100w.

Most of it works except it stays in transmit and the CW "beeps" at the operating station but only sounds like a series of clicks over the air. Any and all comments and suggestions welcome. TIA

I don't have to sing the praises but thank you Elecraft for such a great radio.

Scott
N1IRB
S/N 4555

Ralph Parker

K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

>Most of it works except it stays in transmit and the CW "beeps" at the
>operating station but only sounds like a series of clicks over the air...

Here's my guess, Scott:
Perhaps it's working, ie. sending CW over the air, but it is zero beat with
the SSB frequency, and therefore nobody hears anything. You need a 700hz
(or thereabouts) offset, in a direction compatible with whatever sideband
you're using.

Remember, it's just a guess - I know nothing about macros.

Ralph, VE7XF

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Richard Ferch

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

Scott,

If Ralph's guess is correct, there is a configuration option to do this
offsetting automatically: look at the CONFIG:CW WGHT option in the
manual and try setting the automatic VFO offset (tap 5). Note also that
on 30m and above you will want to use MD7 and MD2 instead of MD3 and MD1
in your macro command string.

73,
Rich VE3KI

VE7XF wrote:

>>Most of it works except it stays in transmit and the CW "beeps" at the
>>operating station but only sounds like a series of clicks over the air...
>
> Here's my guess, Scott:
> Perhaps it's working, ie. sending CW over the air, but it is zero beat with
> the SSB frequency, and therefore nobody hears anything. You need a 700hz
> (or thereabouts) offset, in a direction compatible with whatever sideband
> you're using.
>
> Remember, it's just a guess - I know nothing about macros.
>
> Ralph, VE7XF

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N1IRB

Re: CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by N1IRB

Thank you both. Yes the offset does make things better. I still can't figure out why the macro doesn't bring the rig out of transmit.

I used MD1 because it is mostly LSB that I want it for. But yes MD2 would be needed on 20m - 10m thanks.

N1IRB

Re: CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by N1IRB

More fiddling and I came up with:

PC020;MD3;TX;KYWN1IRB;RX;MD1;PC100;RX;RX;

This seems to work. With out the three "RX" I was finding it to be intermittent as to whether or not it came out of TX as noted by the red TX LED remaining eliminated. With less RX commands I also noticed that when stuck in TX if I pressed the M1 button to re-execute the macro it would simply come out of TX and then run the macro if I pressed the button again. Seems weird and glitchy to me.

I wish it would come out of TX at the first RX command instead of having to catch it on the 3rd.

I have the CONFIG:CW WGHT option automatic VFO offset (tap 5) set and it auto switches 600Hz up or down depending one whether I am in USB or LSB. I also removed the KS017 as the first time I run the macro it is set. It seemed redundant and cleaner with out it.

Thanks all for the help.

Scott - N1IRB

Nr4c

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by Richard Ferch

any chance of recording the CW audio on a DVR and replaying and
recording into one of the memories with the K3 DVR? then jkust play
it back on the air.

...bill nr4c

Quoting Richard Ferch <[hidden email]>:

> Scott,
>
> If Ralph's guess is correct, there is a configuration option to do this
> offsetting automatically: look at the CONFIG:CW WGHT option in the
> manual and try setting the automatic VFO offset (tap 5). Note also that
> on 30m and above you will want to use MD7 and MD2 instead of MD3 and MD1
> in your macro command string.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
>
> VE7XF wrote:
>>> Most of it works except it stays in transmit and the CW "beeps" at the
>>> operating station but only sounds like a series of clicks over the air...
>>
>> Here's my guess, Scott:
>> Perhaps it's working, ie. sending CW over the air, but it is zero beat with
>> the SSB frequency, and therefore nobody hears anything. You need a 700hz
>> (or thereabouts) offset, in a direction compatible with whatever sideband
>> you're using.
>>
>> Remember, it's just a guess - I know nothing about macros.
>>
>> Ralph, VE7XF
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Mark Bayern

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

But that would get you a SSB transmission modulated with a tone. Not a
CW transmission.

Mark AD5SS

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:32 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> any chance of recording the CW audio on a DVR and replaying and
> recording into one of the memories with the K3 DVR? then jkust play
> it back on the air.
>
> ...bill nr4c
>
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Bob Naumann W5OV

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

At one time that was illegal - is it still?

> But that would get you a SSB transmission modulated with a tone. Not a
> CW transmission.
>
> Mark AD5SS
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:32 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> any chance of recording the CW audio on a DVR and replaying and
>> recording into one of the memories with the K3 DVR? then jkust play
>> it back on the air.
>>
>> ...bill nr4c
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Tom Hammond-2

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

Actually, it's NOT actually 'illegal'... BUT... you MUST use SSB, and
you MUST have every well-suppressed carrier. I don't recall the
exact amount of carrier suppression that's required, but it must be
essentially negligible, thus, the tone is transmitted AS the CW
carrier and the suppressed carrier is low enough that you won't hear it.

Collins, and a couple others which didn't offer CW mode, used to use
a small plug-into-the-mic-jack sine wave oscillator which could be
keyed and which would allow CW to be sent cleanly... in SSB mode.

73,

Tom N0SS

At 10:25 AM 2/15/2011, [hidden email] wrote:

>At one time that was illegal - is it still?
>
>
> > But that would get you a SSB transmission modulated with a tone. Not a
> > CW transmission.
> >
> > Mark AD5SS
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:32 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> any chance of recording the CW audio on a DVR and replaying and
> >> recording into one of the memories with the K3 DVR? then jkust play
> >> it back on the air.
> >>
> >> ...bill nr4c
> >>
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by N1IRB

Scott,

Have you tried turning on "CW in SSB" (CW WGHT -> toggle "1" until
you see "SSB +CW")?

I have not checked but that might eliminate the need for the TX;
and RX; commands entirely (CW input forces Semi Break-In in SSB +CW).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2/15/2011 11:01 AM, N1IRB wrote:

>
> More fiddling and I came up with:
>
> PC020;MD3;TX;KYWN1IRB;RX;MD1;PC100;RX;RX;
>
> This seems to work. With out the three "RX" I was finding it to be
> intermittent as to whether or not it came out of TX as noted by the red TX
> LED remaining eliminated. With less RX commands I also noticed that when
> stuck in TX if I pressed the M1 button to re-execute the macro it would
> simply come out of TX and then run the macro if I pressed the button again.
> Seems weird and glitchy to me.
>
> I wish it would come out of TX at the first RX command instead of having to
> catch it on the 3rd.
>
> I have the CONFIG:CW WGHT option automatic VFO offset (tap 5) set and it
> auto switches 600Hz up or down depending one whether I am in USB or LSB. I
> also removed the KS017 as the first time I run the macro it is set. It
> seemed redundant and cleaner with out it.
>
> Thanks all for the help.
>
> Scott - N1IRB
>
>

K6LMP

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by Bob Naumann W5OV

>From Wikipedia (my emphasis in bold):

Modulated continuous wave is defined by the Federal Communications Commission in 47 CFR §97.3(c)(4) as "Tone-modulated international Morse code telegraphy emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H or R as the first symbol; 2 as the second symbol; A or B as the third symbol." See Types of radio emissions for a general explanation of these symbols.
Simply put, MCW uses a fixed audio tone to modulate a carrier wave. This is an older method of sending Morse code, with continuous wave being the more common method used today.
Unlike A1A CW transmissions, A2A MCW morse can clearly be heard on a normal AM radio receiver. It was commonly used by many RDF beacons to send a morse station identifier on a regular basis.

MCW is not allowed in the United States on amateur radio frequencies lower than 50 MHz, as it is a very inefficient use of radio spectrum.

Lew K6LMP

On Feb 15, 2011, at 9:25 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> At one time that was illegal - is it still?
>
>
>> But that would get you a SSB transmission modulated with a tone. Not a
>> CW transmission.
>>
>> Mark AD5SS
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:32 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> any chance of recording the CW audio on a DVR and replaying and
>>> recording into one of the memories with the K3 DVR? then jkust play
>>> it back on the air.
>>>
>>> ...bill nr4c
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by Tom Hammond-2

Since the K3 generates SSB via DSP and has *no* carrier leakage,
it would be legal. However, don't try it with an analog modulator
since many of them have less than 40 dB of carrier and opposite
sideband suppression on their best days.

I believe the requirement for spurious suppression (non essential
frequencies, including carrier and opposite sideband) is 27 dB
plus some multiple of Log(power)). Unfortunately, I haven't
looked for the exact reference recently.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2/15/2011 11:34 AM, Tom Hammond wrote:

> Actually, it's NOT actually 'illegal'... BUT... you MUST use SSB, and
> you MUST have every well-suppressed carrier. I don't recall the
> exact amount of carrier suppression that's required, but it must be
> essentially negligible, thus, the tone is transmitted AS the CW
> carrier and the suppressed carrier is low enough that you won't hear it.
>
> Collins, and a couple others which didn't offer CW mode, used to use
> a small plug-into-the-mic-jack sine wave oscillator which could be
> keyed and which would allow CW to be sent cleanly... in SSB mode.
>
> 73,
>
> Tom N0SS
>
>
> At 10:25 AM 2/15/2011, [hidden email] wrote:
>> At one time that was illegal - is it still?
>>
>>
>>> But that would get you a SSB transmission modulated with a tone. Not a
>>> CW transmission.
>>>
>>> Mark AD5SS
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:32 AM,<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> any chance of recording the CW audio on a DVR and replaying and
>>>> recording into one of the memories with the K3 DVR? then jkust play
>>>> it back on the air.
>>>>
>>>> ...bill nr4c
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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N1IRB

Re: CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by N1IRB

NR4C

I don't have the K3 DVR option yet so that wouldn't work for me. Thanks for the suggestion.

Scott - N1IRB

N1IRB

Re: CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by N1IRB

Using Vox (VX0 on/VX1 off) instead of TX and RX seems to work better/cleaner

PC020;MD3;VX0;KYWN1IRB;VX1;MD1;PC100;

Scott - N1IRB

AC7AC

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by Bob Naumann W5OV

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

N1IRB

Re: CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by N1IRB

Oops my mistake. VX is a get only command. LOL no transmision was being made. The tones were only in the shack. Sheez. Back to the TX and RX version.

Mark Bayern

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by AC7AC

> As long as the opposite sideband and carrier suppression are good, the end
> result is as much a CW signal as any other CW signal - a simple keyed RF
> carrier.

OK .. I goofed. Can I blame it on learning all this stuff back in the
AM days? (when SSB stood for 'silly side band'.)

It still seems inherently wrong to take digitally recorded version of
a CPO output and use that in an attempt to create a CW signal. How
much distortion does the record/play back add to the signal? Was the
_original_ tone a good sine wave?

A CW transmitter is a simple thing, why make a complicated one?

Mark AD5SS

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Illegal? That's how many SSB rigs created "CW" for years - feed a keyed
> audio signal into the SSB audio channel.
>
> As long as the opposite sideband and carrier suppression are good, the end
> result is as much a CW signal as any other CW signal - a simple keyed RF
> carrier.
>
> Are you perhaps thinking of MCW produced by transmitting a keyed audio tone
> over a double-sideband full-carrier A.M. transmitter? That has always been
> limited to the Amateur "phone" bands and would be extremely unwelcome and
> illegal on the Amateur CW bands.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> At one time that was illegal - is it still?
>
>
>> But that would get you a SSB transmission modulated with a tone. Not a
>> CW transmission.
>>
>> Mark AD5SS
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:32 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> any chance of recording the CW audio on a DVR and replaying and
>>> recording into one of the memories with the K3 DVR? then jkust play
>>> it back on the air.
>>>
>>> ...bill nr4c
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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AC7AC

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Guy, K2AV

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

What is a "real" CW signal? One that keys an oscillator?

K3 ain't your daddy's analog radio.

The K3 has the digital number stream elements for a pristine keyed CW signal
in firmware and feeds that into the TX digital to analog converter which
comes out in the 15 kHz TX IF. That signal proceeds to go through the same
analog amplification string as the SSB signals. Surely that's "cheating"
too. A real CW signal would have to be cleaned up by working on the delay
and state change constants derived from capacitors and resistors in the
circuitry, right?

The pristine CW signal of a K3 is derived by digital "cheating", since the
waveshape can be derived from a theoretical math curve that no one has ever
been able to make with resistors, inductors and capacitors.

We still got all our perceptual facilities stuck back in the analog muck.
Digital "cheating" all over the place in a K3.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I agree. As another OT from the days when A.M. was king, I've always
> appreciated the clean simplicity of a real CW rig.
>
> An interesting offshoot of this point was the use of MCW on the high seas.
> Right up until CW was discontinued for emergency communications at sea in
> the late 1990's, all shipboard CW rigs had to be able to send double
> sideband AM MCW. That was a legacy from the days of spark, since spark was
> self-modulated and could be copied on any AM radio, even a crystal set. MCW
> was required for emergency calls to make sure every station within range
> could copy, no matter how old or limited their equipment.
>
> The shipboard operators normally ran pure CW with the modulator turned off
> for routine communications, but some liked to crank up the modulator
> whenever they wanted to be noticed. Listened to on a normal CW receiver
> with
> its BFO on, an MCW signal made a very distinctive cacophony of beat notes
> between the sidebands and carriers and the BFO.
>
> It's one technique that I don't think would appreciated by today's Ham
> operators fussing over CW signal bandwidths in the tens of Hz, even if it
> wasn't illegal, Hi!
>
> 73,
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> OK .. I goofed. Can I blame it on learning all this stuff back in the
> AM days? (when SSB stood for 'silly side band'.)
>
> It still seems inherently wrong to take digitally recorded version of
> a CPO output and use that in an attempt to create a CW signal. How
> much distortion does the record/play back add to the signal? Was the
> _original_ tone a good sine wave?
>
> A CW transmitter is a simple thing, why make a complicated one?
>
> Mark AD5SS
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3: re CW ID macro on SSB

In reply to this post by Mark Bayern

Mark,

Actually, an SSB signal modulated by a single tone sine wave IS a CW
transmission. There have been SSB transmitters commercially built which
did exactly that for CW - but that was in times past.

If the supressed carrier is sufficiently below the RF amplitude of the
transmitted tone to meet the FCC requirements for spurs, then it is
perfectly legal.

Don't try that with an AM signal - that becomes MCW which is illegal for
HF amateur bands.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/15/2011 11:20 AM, Mark Bayern wrote:
> But that would get you a SSB transmission modulated with a tone. Not a
> CW transmission.
>
> Mark AD5SS
>
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