CW feature: Swing?

[Jim's mail-2]

Many years (decades?) ago, I happened to work with several amateur operators
of the then differing classes and requirements.  One co-worker and operator
told me that he went to a music store, the type of store that sole sheet
music, and bought a copy of a tape called "Drum Drops" being sold as a
practice tape for drummers.  He said that it made good rhythm for CW
practice.

As some have said "It takes all kinds..."

73,
Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "john petters" <[hidden email]>
To: "Thom LaCosta" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "'[Elecraft]'" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: OT [Elecraft] [K3] CW feature: Swing?

>
>
> Thom LaCosta wrote:
>> At 11:16 PM 06/30/08, Tom Childers, N5GE wrote:
>>
>>> >CW-swing is related to music.
>>>
>>> No it isn't.  It's related a person with a poor fist that cannot control
>>> the
>>> length of the dashes to match the dots they are sending.  It has nothing
>>> to do
>>> with music; It has to do with reliable communication.  I believe most
>>> bug users
>>> who tout the Mississippi Swing should QLF.
>
> As pro Swing drummer I would say its a pity there is not a bit more swing
> to many of the CW stations I copy. Many straight and bug operators were
> recognisable by their 'fist'. Too many today use keyers that are set too
> fast or have no rhythmic sense at all, running characters together, which
> makes it very hard to copy.
> Perhaps Elecraft could come up with QSD correcter.
> 73
> John G3YPZ www.traditional-jazz.com
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[w7aqk]

Ron and All,

Yep, I think you are right.  Mileages do probably vary
because we all hear things just a tad bit different.  I
think perhaps there is some difference in perception here as
to just how much "swing" we are talking about.  I would
think we all are averse to some of the stuff we hear, but
what some folks deem to be" pleasant" is not so pronounced
that it borders on confusion.  I think I can adapt to a
person's "fist" as readily as the next guy.  And there is
"personality" to it, as has been pointed out.  Personally, I
don't prefer it, but it doesn't really cause much, if any,
concern so long as the characters are distinguishable, etc.
But some folks with "swing" tinker with character length and
spacing to the point where confusion starts to creep in.  A
"B" can start sounding like "TS", or a "W" can start
sounding like "AM", etc.  Where it really gets dicey is when
they send a "TS" just like they send a "B", or "AM" just
like they send "W".  These may not be the people you are
thinking about, but they are, in large part, the ones I have
been referring to.

I don't know about swing making copy less fatiguing, but if
it works for you that's great.  And I can understand how
that might be the case.  There was a time when I had to copy
CW 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and it did get pretty
boring and tiring.  And I well remember the days when poorly
regulated transmitters made a lot of CW sound almost like
FSK.  That was Fun!  Personally, I find it much less
fatiguing the closer it gets to "machine" quality.  That may
mean I'm just getting old and lazy.  I copy mostly in my
head anyway, and I can copy near machine quality code at a
much higher speed than code that has a swing to it.  But, in
truth, you don't really hear much swing from the higher
speed types.  For example, when I'm talking with some of the
group that hangs around 7020 in the early mornings, it's
usually pretty straight stuff.  But some of them are
probably using keyboards anyway.  It's the under 30 wpm
folks that tend to have swing, and the slower they go, the
more swing you hear.

A few of us were trading emails off the reflector after the
"music" metaphor was offered.  My comment basically was that
even though music has well defined notes and rhythm, it
still has room for interpretation as to emphasis, etc.
That's why there are conductors.  But even so, I strongly
suspect that when Beethoven wrote his 5th Symphony, he had
very specific ideas in mind, even as to emphasis.  I'm no
musician either, but I believe that the "emphasis" that is
put down on a sheet of music ("legato", or whatever) is
defined, but not so narrowly as to not leave room for
interpretation.  CW, on the other hand, has well defined
characters and well defined spacing by design.  There's not
much left to the imagination in the design at least.  It's
still possible to inject interpretation into CW (as swing
does), but you are actually changing the "rules" to do it.
You must change either the defined character length, or the
defined spacing, or both, in order to create swing.  But you
won't go to jail for doing so, and as long as it's
relatively subtle, it very well may sound pleasant to some.
To me the "music" in CW is achieving near machine quality.
But that's just me perhaps.  When I used a "bug" I wanted
others to think I was using a keyer, and with a keyer and
paddle I want others to think I'm using a keyboard.
Obviously that's not everyone's cup of tea, but I take great
comfort in knowing that at least my K3's decoder agrees with
me!  Hi.

I think I'll go grab a dose of Benny Goodman!  Now there's
some swing with which I can really relax!

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
To: "'[Elecraft]'" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] CW feature: Swing?


Well, Arni, this is a case where mileages *do* vary. I, for
one, find a
reasonable amount of "swing" improves copy and reduces
fatigue. But, then,
I've been listening to it from both commercial and amateur
operators for
over half a century now...

An awful to of good traffic was handled long before "keyers"
came on the
scene.

I recognize that a lot of today's Hams, experienced only
with
machine-perfect code with a pure sine wave sidetone, have
trouble copying
anything else. I was much the same back about the time I
took my code test.
One doesn't progress beyond that point without the same
effort it took to
learn CW in the first place: practice. With keyers and
keyboards so common
today, that's not as easy to find as we did. That's why I
strive to hold the
best spacing I can on my bug when working someone using a
keyer, but I have
no illusions that I'll ever match the machine perfect timing
of a keyer.

The "music" argument makes sense to me but I'm no musician,
just a
commercial and amateur CW operator with a *lot* of CW
traffic behind me sent
by ops on bugs that were a joy to copy, and some who
weren't. (Some things
never change ;-)

Ron AC7AC



-----Original Message-----



On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:02:38 +0200, "Arie Kleingeld PA3A"
<[hidden email]>
wrote:

>CW-swing is related to music.

No it isn't.  It's related a person with a poor fist that
cannot control the
length of the dashes to match the dots they are sending.  It
has nothing to
do with music; It has to do with reliable communication.  I
believe most bug
users who tout the Mississippi Swing should QLF.

> Timing is so important.

That is correct.  A Dash has three times the length of three
dots, no more,
no less.  Even Beethoven knew that, as shown in his fifth
symphony.


>
>Ella Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra are still famous for
>their timing. A
>1-2-3-4 march has a steady beat. But have you ever heard
>the Saint
>Louis Blues March? Lots of examples...

None of your examples were CW operators and probably didn't
even know what
it was...

[snip]

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

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