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Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

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James Beitchman

Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

I think the answer is no, but I'll ask this question anyway.

The station configuration is K3 followed by amp followed by automatic
antenna coupler, where the Key Out line of the K3 is used to switch the amp
inline.

I would like to generate RF from the K3 without switching the amp inline in
order to operate the automatic antenna coupler at low power from the K3
before putting the amp inline. This mean generating RF from the K3 without
activating the Key Out line. Is there any way to do that using K3 controls?

73,

Buzz

W3EMD

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Ron Manfredi

Re: Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

     If I am understanding correctly, you want to bypass the amp and use
low power from the K3 into the tuner in order to tune the antenna.

Does the amp have a 'bypass' switch on it?   If not, then you can put a
switch in the keying line to open it when you want to bypass the amp.

If you are looking for an automatic way of doing this, then obviously
this isn't it!

Ron   WA2EIO

On 5/30/2021 10:30 AM, James Beitchman wrote:

> I think the answer is no, but I'll ask this question anyway.
>
>
>
> The station configuration is K3 followed by amp followed by automatic
> antenna coupler, where the Key Out line of the K3 is used to switch the amp
> inline.
>
>
>
> I would like to generate RF from the K3 without switching the amp inline in
> order to operate the automatic antenna coupler at low power from the K3
> before putting the amp inline. This mean generating RF from the K3 without
> activating the Key Out line. Is there any way to do that using K3 controls?
>
>
>
> 73,
>
>
>
> Buzz
>
> W3EMD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Ron Manfredi

Re: Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

In reply to this post by James Beitchman

Just saw your QRZ page. It appears that you are operating your
station remotely, so my simple suggestion obviously won't work. Hope
someone else may have the right suggestion for you!

Ron WA2EIO

On 5/30/2021 10:30 AM, James Beitchman wrote:

Dick Dievendorff-4

Re: Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

In reply to this post by James Beitchman

Buzz: Our KAT500 and KPA1500 antenna tuners interrupt the key line with a relay for ATU tuning (which is done at exciter power, as we can’t hot switch ATU relays at QRO and amps don’t deal well with the SWR swings encountered during ATU tune). The K3, like most exciters, does pull down the KEY PTT line just before transmitting RF; we just keep that from reaching the amp. This technique works with a lot of exciters, without a need to modify them to emit RF without pulling down the KEY line.

Our KPA1500 ATU tune button interrupts the amp key line, (putting the PA in standby temporarily) and can be configured to send a message to K3 or K4 to start tune level RF. When ATU tune is complete, the amp sends a message to the exciter to cease sending RF, and after RF level drops, the amp restores the key line interrupt relay.

73 de Dick, K6KR

> On May 30, 2021, at 07:32, James Beitchman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think the answer is no, but I'll ask this question anyway.
>
>
>
> The station configuration is K3 followed by amp followed by automatic
> antenna coupler, where the Key Out line of the K3 is used to switch the amp
> inline.
>
>
>
> I would like to generate RF from the K3 without switching the amp inline in
> order to operate the automatic antenna coupler at low power from the K3
> before putting the amp inline. This mean generating RF from the K3 without
> activating the Key Out line. Is there any way to do that using K3 controls?
>
>
>
> 73,
>
>
>
> Buzz
>
> W3EMD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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James Beitchman

Re: Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

Thanks, Dick,

But here is the real issue, not reported in my post.

My antenna - my only antenna - is a non-resonant 600 foot square loop which provides amazing performance especially on high bands. It presents SWRs that are higher than the no-foldback limits of the KPA1500. I believe that limit is 5:!. So, frankly speaking I was planning on an amp with no built-in ATU followed by a wide range automatic ATU (ATK) that can handle my SWR (total cost of amp + ATU well less than KPA1500😊). And I want to do exactly what you described: have the ATU tune using low K3 power and then switch in the amp. To do this would require getting RF power from the K3 without activating the PTT (used to control the amp), then activating the PTT. This is for remote operation from my home in NYC to my shack/country place upstate ( K3/0 mini and RemoteRig plus K3 plus internet controlled relay since 2016),. The problem could be solved with a toggle switch in the shack opening the PTT line, but not for remote. Thus my question of whether it is possible to get RF from the K3 w/o activating PTT.

Thanks again for your attention to this matter.

73

Buzz

-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Dievendorff <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2021 12:08 PM
To: James Beitchman <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

Buzz: Our KAT500 and KPA1500 antenna tuners interrupt the key line with a relay for ATU tuning (which is done at exciter power, as we can’t hot switch ATU relays at QRO and amps don’t deal well with the SWR swings encountered during ATU tune). The K3, like most exciters, does pull down the KEY PTT line just before transmitting RF; we just keep that from reaching the amp. This technique works with a lot of exciters, without a need to modify them to emit RF without pulling down the KEY line.

Our KPA1500 ATU tune button interrupts the amp key line, (putting the PA in standby temporarily) and can be configured to send a message to K3 or K4 to start tune level RF. When ATU tune is complete, the amp sends a message to the exciter to cease sending RF, and after RF level drops, the amp restores the key line interrupt relay.

73 de Dick, K6KR

> On May 30, 2021, at 07:32, James Beitchman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think the answer is no, but I'll ask this question anyway.
>
>
>
> The station configuration is K3 followed by amp followed by automatic
> antenna coupler, where the Key Out line of the K3 is used to switch
> the amp inline.
>
>
>
> I would like to generate RF from the K3 without switching the amp
> inline in order to operate the automatic antenna coupler at low power
> from the K3 before putting the amp inline. This mean generating RF
> from the K3 without activating the Key Out line. Is there any way to do that using K3 controls?
>
>
>
> 73,
>
>
>
> Buzz
>
> W3EMD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

hdv

Re: Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

Hi Buzz,

So the issue is how to prevent PA PTT while in low power mode.
In case you could just switch a remote relay which yes/no passes the PA PTT signal you are all set.

You could use the switch capacity of the Remoterig boxes and activate a relay remotely.
Remoterig provides a web-based switch (see manual)

You could also use one of the Remoterig COMM ports.
This circumvents the need for a PC, just a switch can be used.

I do use COMM1 CTS as (control) input and have at the radio COMM1 RTS as output.
At the control side I have added a MAX232 so I can use a switch to ground at the MAX232 input. (output to COMM1 CTS)

At the radio side RTS goes to a simple transistor relay driver.
You can use the remote relay for anything you want, so also PA PTT control.

In case you need more specifics just send me a mail off list.

73 Henk
PA0C

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> Namens James Beitchman
Verzonden: zondag 30 mei 2021 18:35
Aan: 'Dick Dievendorff' <[hidden email]>
CC: [hidden email]
Onderwerp: Re: [Elecraft] Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

Thanks, Dick,

But here is the real issue, not reported in my post.

My antenna - my only antenna - is a non-resonant 600 foot square loop which provides amazing performance especially on high bands. It presents SWRs that are higher than the no-foldback limits of the KPA1500. I believe that limit is 5:!. So, frankly speaking I was planning on an amp with no built-in ATU followed by a wide range automatic ATU (ATK) that can handle my SWR (total cost of amp + ATU well less than KPA1500😊). And I want to do exactly what you described: have the ATU tune using low K3 power and then switch in the amp. To do this would require getting RF power from the K3 without activating the PTT (used to control the amp), then activating the PTT. This is for remote operation from my home in NYC to my shack/country place upstate ( K3/0 mini and RemoteRig plus K3 plus internet controlled relay since 2016),. The problem could be solved with a toggle switch in the shack opening the PTT line, but not for remote. Thus my question of whether it is possible to get RF from the K3 w/o activating PTT.

Thanks again for your attention to this matter.

73

Buzz

-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Dievendorff <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2021 12:08 PM
To: James Beitchman <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

Buzz: Our KAT500 and KPA1500 antenna tuners interrupt the key line with a relay for ATU tuning (which is done at exciter power, as we can’t hot switch ATU relays at QRO and amps don’t deal well with the SWR swings encountered during ATU tune). The K3, like most exciters, does pull down the KEY PTT line just before transmitting RF; we just keep that from reaching the amp. This technique works with a lot of exciters, without a need to modify them to emit RF without pulling down the KEY line.

Our KPA1500 ATU tune button interrupts the amp key line, (putting the PA in standby temporarily) and can be configured to send a message to K3 or K4 to start tune level RF. When ATU tune is complete, the amp sends a message to the exciter to cease sending RF, and after RF level drops, the amp restores the key line interrupt relay.

73 de Dick, K6KR

> On May 30, 2021, at 07:32, James Beitchman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think the answer is no, but I'll ask this question anyway.
>
>
>
> The station configuration is K3 followed by amp followed by automatic
> antenna coupler, where the Key Out line of the K3 is used to switch
> the amp inline.
>
>
>
> I would like to generate RF from the K3 without switching the amp
> inline in order to operate the automatic antenna coupler at low power
> from the K3 before putting the amp inline. This mean generating RF
> from the K3 without activating the Key Out line. Is there any way to do that using K3 controls?
>
>
>
> 73,
>
>
>
> Buzz
>
> W3EMD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

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Geert Jan de Groot

Re: Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

In reply to this post by James Beitchman

On 30/05/2021 19:42, [hidden email] wrote:
> The problem could be solved with a toggle switch in the shack opening the PTT line, but not for remote. Thus my question of whether it is possible to get
> RF from the K3 w/o activating PTT.

I wonder if the DIGOUT1 output of the ACC connector can be made to do
what you want: drive a relay that interrupts the KEYOUT line.

Alternative (and perhaps more expensive): The KPOD has 3 outputs that
can be switched using serial commands. If you try this, be aware that
the documentation of the KPOD is (or was) wrong: tip is output3, not
output1, and vice versa.

If you want to use this to drive a relay you probably want a PNP
transistor as buffer.

73, Geert Jan PE1HZG
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

In reply to this post by James Beitchman

James;

I think you missed Dick's point. The ATU should have a signal that indicates when it needs to do a tune (or is doing one). Simply use that signal to operate a relay. That relay either passes the Keyout signal to the PA (normal), or opens the relay to unkey the PA (tuning). That is exactly what the KAT500 does with the KPA, or any other PA it operates with.

This is a very simple, and elegant automatic solution.

73,
Jack, W6FB

> On May 30, 2021, at 9:34 AM, James Beitchman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Dick,
>
> But here is the real issue, not reported in my post.
>
> My antenna - my only antenna - is a non-resonant 600 foot square loop which provides amazing performance especially on high bands. It presents SWRs that are higher than the no-foldback limits of the KPA1500. I believe that limit is 5:!. So, frankly speaking I was planning on an amp with no built-in ATU followed by a wide range automatic ATU (ATK) that can handle my SWR (total cost of amp + ATU well less than KPA1500😊). And I want to do exactly what you described: have the ATU tune using low K3 power and then switch in the amp. To do this would require getting RF power from the K3 without activating the PTT (used to control the amp), then activating the PTT. This is for remote operation from my home in NYC to my shack/country place upstate ( K3/0 mini and RemoteRig plus K3 plus internet controlled relay since 2016),. The problem could be solved with a toggle switch in the shack opening the PTT line, but not for remote. Thus my question of whether it is possible to get RF from the K3 w/o activating PTT.
>
> Thanks again for your attention to this matter.
>
> 73
>
> Buzz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick Dievendorff <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2021 12:08 PM
> To: James Beitchman <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Cc: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?
>
> Buzz: Our KAT500 and KPA1500 antenna tuners interrupt the key line with a relay for ATU tuning (which is done at exciter power, as we can’t hot switch ATU relays at QRO and amps don’t deal well with the SWR swings encountered during ATU tune). The K3, like most exciters, does pull down the KEY PTT line just before transmitting RF; we just keep that from reaching the amp. This technique works with a lot of exciters, without a need to modify them to emit RF without pulling down the KEY line.
>
> Our KPA1500 ATU tune button interrupts the amp key line, (putting the PA in standby temporarily) and can be configured to send a message to K3 or K4 to start tune level RF. When ATU tune is complete, the amp sends a message to the exciter to cease sending RF, and after RF level drops, the amp restores the key line interrupt relay.
>
> 73 de Dick, K6KR
>
>> On May 30, 2021, at 07:32, James Beitchman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I think the answer is no, but I'll ask this question anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> The station configuration is K3 followed by amp followed by automatic
>> antenna coupler, where the Key Out line of the K3 is used to switch
>> the amp inline.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to generate RF from the K3 without switching the amp
>> inline in order to operate the automatic antenna coupler at low power
>> from the K3 before putting the amp inline. This mean generating RF
>> from the K3 without activating the Key Out line. Is there any way to do that using K3 controls?
>>
>>
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>
>>
>> Buzz
>>
>> W3EMD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>
>
> --
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ke9uw

Re: Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

That inhibit is what I was always nervous about. I always put the KPA500 on
standby and then push TUNE on the K3 and then push TUNE on the KAT500.
Otherwise it's kind of scary...pushing TUNE first on the K3 puts high power
out on the KPA500. I guess if I pushed TUNE then on the KAT500, the KPA500
would drop out?
So I guess the correct sequence would be to press TUNE on the KAT500 and
then push TUNE on the K3 and the KPA500 would not KEY. Correct?
Why not have pushing TUNE on the KAT500 initiate the whole sequence...unkey
the KPA, start the TUNE on the K3 and tune?

-----
Chuck, KE9UW
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Chuck, KE9UW

ANDY DURBIN

Can the K3 make power without activating Key Out?

In reply to this post by James Beitchman

"So I guess the correct sequence would be to press TUNE on the KAT500 and then push TUNE on the K3 and the KPA500 would not KEY. Correct? Why not have pushing TUNE on the KAT500 initiate the whole sequence...unkey the KPA, start the TUNE on the K3 and tune?"

That's may not be as perfect a solution as you might think. While I developing my Kenwood/KAT500/KPA500 controller I found that KAT500 enabled the key line when its internal logic saw the tune sequence had terminated. That was before TX had completed and there was a large power spike. KAT500 should not re-enable the key line until it detects RF has gone to zero. (Maybe it works better with full Aux bus integration with a K3).

For me the solution was simply to manage the entire tuning sequence with my controller. One key press and the rest is automatic. The sequence is:

Detect tune request
Ensure KAT500 keyline is inhibited
Initiate tune TX and increase tune power to level needed by KAT500
Initiate KAT autotune
Detect end of autotune
Terminate tune TX and reset tune power to low level
Verify TX has terminated
Enable keyline (but only if KPA500 OPER mode is active)

It may sound complicated but the effort of developing the code is more than paid for by having a completely automatic single button capability.

As a bonus I save the tuning solution that existed before tune initiation so it can be restored if I don't like the new solution.

73,
Andy, k3wyc

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