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Computers in the Stone Age

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Edward A. Dauer

Computers in the Stone Age

One of the interesting pieces of that history, from a retail consumer
user's (layman's) point of view, is that the Apple II (I owned a II+ in
the late 1970s) used MS-DOS as its operating system before Apple developed
its own. As I recall, the OS was not resident in the early hardware - to
use it you first loaded DOS in through a 5" floppy, then used another 5"
floppy for data. (My memory is imperfect, but I believe that was
correct.) The original IBM PC also had 5" floppy drives. One was for the
App (such as WordStar) and the other for the data files. The 3" disk was
a much later development, and a great leap forward. The IBM PC, which I
bought in 1982 plus or minus a couple of years, cost me $5,000 in the
dollars of the day.

The most significant development, which some folks today don't remember or
never knew, is that e-mail and the Internet began as separate systems.
E-mail used ordinary phone lines in its earliest days. I remember well
sitting in airport boarding lounges with a set of alligator clips and a
screwdriver which I used to remove the cap from the modular telephone
jacks so I could dial up other members of our e-mail network. I don't
recall the year, but I do remember that when e-mail was merged with the
Internet the whole world changed.

The idea of controlling my radio equipment with my computer in the 70s
never occurred to me . . . .

Do I have that history right?

Ted, KN1CBR

>
>Message: 3
>Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 06:39:23 -0500
>From: Jim Rogers <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft's linux utilities - somewhat OT, or
> maybe not
>Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Actually Don, the Apple II preceded the IBM PC and had a very strong
>following. As the owner of a consulting firm that placed some Apple IIs
>doing some difficult, at that time, interfacing to main frames we
>welcomed the appearance of the IBM PC when it came on the scene. We had
>the second IBM PC in Birmingham and after a couple of days of evaluation
>recompiled our software and the rest was history.
>
>73s Jim, W4ATK
>On 5/27/2014 9:31 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> And those computers Tom Watson was speaking of took a large controlled
>> environment room just for the various pieces. It was certainly not a
>> desktop computer.
>> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
>> PC in the 1980s. I bought my daughter a new IBM PC with 2 floppy
>> drives and 64k of ram for her to use in her college classes. It was
>> later upgraded with a 5 MB hard drive which replaced one of the floppy
>> drives (3.5 inch floppys).
>>
>> We have come a long way since that time. That system cost $2500 at
>> the time, now I can buy a computer with a LOT more capability for less
>> than $300.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 5/27/2014 9:43 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>> At sometime in the 50's, the President of IBM is alleged to have
>>> said, "The worldwide market for computers is probably about twelve."
>>> Apparently he didn't know Doug.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Fred K6DGW
>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>>> - www.cqp.org
>>>
>>> On 5/27/2014 1:29 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
>>>
>>>> I probably have 15 working computers.
>>>
>>

Gerry Hull

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

Definitely OT, but interesting!

No, MS-DOS (Microsoft) did not run on the Apple II. DOS ("Disk Operating
System") did...

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_DOS

to refresh your memory...

I had the Apple 1 (PC Board & keyboard), An Altair 8800 (with a teletype
for I/O), and
a 1st-gen IBM PC when they came out (about $5500 as I recall, with all the
bells and whistles.)

We have come a long way, baby!

73, Gerry W1VE

Gerry Hull, W1VE | Nelson, NH USA | +1-617-CW-SPARK
AKA: VE1RM | VY2CDX | VO1CDX | 6Y6C | 8P9RM
<http://www.yccc.org> <http://www.yccc.org/>
<http://www.facebook.com/gerryhull> <https://plus.google.com/+GerryHull/posts>
<http://www.twitter.com/w1ve>

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One of the interesting pieces of that history, from a retail consumer
> user's (layman's) point of view, is that the Apple II (I owned a II+ in
> the late 1970s) used MS-DOS as its operating system before Apple developed
> its own. As I recall, the OS was not resident in the early hardware - to
> use it you first loaded DOS in through a 5" floppy, then used another 5"
> floppy for data. (My memory is imperfect, but I believe that was
> correct.) The original IBM PC also had 5" floppy drives. One was for the
> App (such as WordStar) and the other for the data files. The 3" disk was
> a much later development, and a great leap forward. The IBM PC, which I
> bought in 1982 plus or minus a couple of years, cost me $5,000 in the
> dollars of the day.
>
>
> The most significant development, which some folks today don't remember or
> never knew, is that e-mail and the Internet began as separate systems.
> E-mail used ordinary phone lines in its earliest days. I remember well
> sitting in airport boarding lounges with a set of alligator clips and a
> screwdriver which I used to remove the cap from the modular telephone
> jacks so I could dial up other members of our e-mail network. I don't
> recall the year, but I do remember that when e-mail was merged with the
> Internet the whole world changed.
>
> The idea of controlling my radio equipment with my computer in the 70s
> never occurred to me . . . .
>
> Do I have that history right?
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
>
> >
> >Message: 3
> >Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 06:39:23 -0500
> >From: Jim Rogers <[hidden email]>
> >To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft's linux utilities - somewhat OT, or
> > maybe not
> >Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> >Actually Don, the Apple II preceded the IBM PC and had a very strong
> >following. As the owner of a consulting firm that placed some Apple IIs
> >doing some difficult, at that time, interfacing to main frames we
> >welcomed the appearance of the IBM PC when it came on the scene. We had
> >the second IBM PC in Birmingham and after a couple of days of evaluation
> >recompiled our software and the rest was history.
> >
> >73s Jim, W4ATK
> >On 5/27/2014 9:31 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> >> And those computers Tom Watson was speaking of took a large controlled
> >> environment room just for the various pieces. It was certainly not a
> >> desktop computer.
> >> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
> >> PC in the 1980s. I bought my daughter a new IBM PC with 2 floppy
> >> drives and 64k of ram for her to use in her college classes. It was
> >> later upgraded with a 5 MB hard drive which replaced one of the floppy
> >> drives (3.5 inch floppys).
> >>
> >> We have come a long way since that time. That system cost $2500 at
> >> the time, now I can buy a computer with a LOT more capability for less
> >> than $300.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> On 5/27/2014 9:43 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> >>> At sometime in the 50's, the President of IBM is alleged to have
> >>> said, "The worldwide market for computers is probably about twelve."
> >>> Apparently he didn't know Doug.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>>
> >>> Fred K6DGW
> >>> - Northern California Contest Club
> >>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> >>> - www.cqp.org
> >>>
> >>> On 5/27/2014 1:29 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I probably have 15 working computers.
> >>>
> >>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Alan Bloom

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

"Computers in the Stone Age": I wonder what Fred Flintstone's computer
looked like? :=)

> The IBM PC, which I bought in 1982 plus or minus a couple of years,
> cost me $5,000 in the dollars of the day.

It's interesting that the latest, greatest, bleeding-edge PC always
seems to cost about $4000-$5000. Then a year later you can buy the same
thing for $1000. And a couple years after that it goes on the scrap
heap because it no longer has enough memory / hard disc space /
processor speed to run current software.

Alan N1AL
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k6mkf

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

>>> The idea of controlling my radio equipment with my computer in the 70s
never occurred to me . . . .

Me neither - as I was feeding my machine-level program on paper tape into
the Philco Redstone Rocket fire-control computer in Ft. Monmouth in 1965.

- 73 de Mike, K6MKF, W6NAG, Secretary - NCDXC, IDXG, ADXG, RRC #933,
K3-P3-KPA500-KAT500 Addict, Maui

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dauer,
Edward
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 9:52 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

One of the interesting pieces of that history, from a retail consumer user's
(layman's) point of view, is that the Apple II (I owned a II+ in the late
1970s) used MS-DOS as its operating system before Apple developed its own.
As I recall, the OS was not resident in the early hardware - to use it you
first loaded DOS in through a 5" floppy, then used another 5"
floppy for data. (My memory is imperfect, but I believe that was
correct.) The original IBM PC also had 5" floppy drives. One was for the
App (such as WordStar) and the other for the data files. The 3" disk was a
much later development, and a great leap forward. The IBM PC, which I
bought in 1982 plus or minus a couple of years, cost me $5,000 in the
dollars of the day.

The most significant development, which some folks today don't remember or
never knew, is that e-mail and the Internet began as separate systems.
E-mail used ordinary phone lines in its earliest days. I remember well
sitting in airport boarding lounges with a set of alligator clips and a
screwdriver which I used to remove the cap from the modular telephone jacks
so I could dial up other members of our e-mail network. I don't recall the
year, but I do remember that when e-mail was merged with the Internet the
whole world changed.

The idea of controlling my radio equipment with my computer in the 70s never
occurred to me . . . .

Do I have that history right?

Ted, KN1CBR

>
>Message: 3
>Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 06:39:23 -0500
>From: Jim Rogers <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft's linux utilities - somewhat OT, or
> maybe not
>Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Actually Don, the Apple II preceded the IBM PC and had a very strong
>following. As the owner of a consulting firm that placed some Apple IIs
>doing some difficult, at that time, interfacing to main frames we
>welcomed the appearance of the IBM PC when it came on the scene. We had
>the second IBM PC in Birmingham and after a couple of days of
>evaluation recompiled our software and the rest was history.
>
>73s Jim, W4ATK
>On 5/27/2014 9:31 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> And those computers Tom Watson was speaking of took a large
>> controlled environment room just for the various pieces. It was
>> certainly not a desktop computer.
>> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
>> PC in the 1980s. I bought my daughter a new IBM PC with 2 floppy
>> drives and 64k of ram for her to use in her college classes. It was
>> later upgraded with a 5 MB hard drive which replaced one of the
>> floppy drives (3.5 inch floppys).
>>
>> We have come a long way since that time. That system cost $2500 at
>> the time, now I can buy a computer with a LOT more capability for
>> less than $300.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 5/27/2014 9:43 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>> At sometime in the 50's, the President of IBM is alleged to have
>>> said, "The worldwide market for computers is probably about twelve."
>>> Apparently he didn't know Doug.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Fred K6DGW
>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>>> - www.cqp.org
>>>
>>> On 5/27/2014 1:29 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
>>>
>>>> I probably have 15 working computers.
>>>
>>

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Bill Steffey NY9H

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

my apple II, which I still have..
loaded the os from a cassette tape ( still have that also)

the floppy drives came later.

I sold for a company called Mountain Computer...
that had a 5M 1200$ hard drive add on for the apple II and the IBM PC
(it had no hard drive till the XT).... still might have that ,,,,

O yes... one of our illustrious founders was the chief engineer at
Mountain Computer about then.

bill ny9h/3

At 12:52 PM 5/28/2014, Dauer, Edward wrote:

>One of the interesting pieces of that history, from a retail consumer
>user's (layman's) point of view, is that the Apple II (I owned a II+ in
>the late 1970s) used MS-DOS as its operating system before Apple developed
>its own. As I recall, the OS was not resident in the early hardware - to
>use it you first loaded DOS in through a 5" floppy, then used another 5"
>floppy for data. (My memory is imperfect, but I believe that was
>correct.) The original IBM PC also had 5" floppy drives. One was for the
>App (such as WordStar) and the other for the data files. The 3" disk was
>a much later development, and a great leap forward. The IBM PC, which I
>bought in 1982 plus or minus a couple of years, cost me $5,000 in the
>dollars of the day.
>
>
>The most significant development, which some folks today don't remember or
>never knew, is that e-mail and the Internet began as separate systems.
>E-mail used ordinary phone lines in its earliest days. I remember well
>sitting in airport boarding lounges with a set of alligator clips and a
>screwdriver which I used to remove the cap from the modular telephone
>jacks so I could dial up other members of our e-mail network. I don't
>recall the year, but I do remember that when e-mail was merged with the
>Internet the whole world changed.
>
>The idea of controlling my radio equipment with my computer in the 70s
>never occurred to me . . . .
>
>Do I have that history right?
>
>Ted, KN1CBR
>
>
> >
> >Message: 3
> >Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 06:39:23 -0500
> >From: Jim Rogers <[hidden email]>
> >To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft's linux utilities - somewhat OT, or
> > maybe not
> >Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> >Actually Don, the Apple II preceded the IBM PC and had a very strong
> >following. As the owner of a consulting firm that placed some Apple IIs
> >doing some difficult, at that time, interfacing to main frames we
> >welcomed the appearance of the IBM PC when it came on the scene. We had
> >the second IBM PC in Birmingham and after a couple of days of evaluation
> >recompiled our software and the rest was history.
> >
> >73s Jim, W4ATK
> >On 5/27/2014 9:31 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> >> And those computers Tom Watson was speaking of took a large controlled
> >> environment room just for the various pieces. It was certainly not a
> >> desktop computer.
> >> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
> >> PC in the 1980s. I bought my daughter a new IBM PC with 2 floppy
> >> drives and 64k of ram for her to use in her college classes. It was
> >> later upgraded with a 5 MB hard drive which replaced one of the floppy
> >> drives (3.5 inch floppys).
> >>
> >> We have come a long way since that time. That system cost $2500 at
> >> the time, now I can buy a computer with a LOT more capability for less
> >> than $300.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> On 5/27/2014 9:43 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> >>> At sometime in the 50's, the President of IBM is alleged to have
> >>> said, "The worldwide market for computers is probably about twelve."
> >>> Apparently he didn't know Doug.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>>
> >>> Fred K6DGW
> >>> - Northern California Contest Club
> >>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> >>> - www.cqp.org
> >>>
> >>> On 5/27/2014 1:29 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I probably have 15 working computers.
> >>>
> >>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Josh Fiden

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Gerry Hull

Apple I?? Nice! I had an Imsai 8080 & a Lisa 2...

Maybe he's remembering running DR-DOS on the Apple II? Required a Z80
card. hi

73,
Josh W6XU

P.S. Sorry, waaay OT.

On 5/28/2014 10:13 AM, Gerry Hull wrote:

> Definitely OT, but interesting!
>
> No, MS-DOS (Microsoft) did not run on the Apple II. DOS ("Disk Operating
> System") did...
>
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_DOS
>
> to refresh your memory...
>
> I had the Apple 1 (PC Board & keyboard), An Altair 8800 (with a teletype
> for I/O), and
> a 1st-gen IBM PC when they came out (about $5500 as I recall, with all the
> bells and whistles.)
>
> We have come a long way, baby!
>
> 73, Gerry W1VE
>
>
> Gerry Hull, W1VE | Nelson, NH USA | +1-617-CW-SPARK
> AKA: VE1RM | VY2CDX | VO1CDX | 6Y6C | 8P9RM
> <http://www.yccc.org> <http://www.yccc.org/>
> <http://www.facebook.com/gerryhull> <https://plus.google.com/+GerryHull/posts>
> <http://www.twitter.com/w1ve>
>
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> One of the interesting pieces of that history, from a retail consumer
>> user's (layman's) point of view, is that the Apple II (I owned a II+ in
>> the late 1970s) used MS-DOS as its operating system before Apple developed
>> its own. As I recall, the OS was not resident in the early hardware - to
>> use it you first loaded DOS in through a 5" floppy, then used another 5"
>> floppy for data. (My memory is imperfect, but I believe that was
>> correct.) The original IBM PC also had 5" floppy drives. One was for the
>> App (such as WordStar) and the other for the data files. The 3" disk was
>> a much later development, and a great leap forward. The IBM PC, which I
>> bought in 1982 plus or minus a couple of years, cost me $5,000 in the
>> dollars of the day.
>>
>>
>> The most significant development, which some folks today don't remember or
>> never knew, is that e-mail and the Internet began as separate systems.
>> E-mail used ordinary phone lines in its earliest days. I remember well
>> sitting in airport boarding lounges with a set of alligator clips and a
>> screwdriver which I used to remove the cap from the modular telephone
>> jacks so I could dial up other members of our e-mail network. I don't
>> recall the year, but I do remember that when e-mail was merged with the
>> Internet the whole world changed.
>>
>> The idea of controlling my radio equipment with my computer in the 70s
>> never occurred to me . . . .
>>
>> Do I have that history right?
>>
>> Ted, KN1CBR
>>
>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 06:39:23 -0500
>>> From: Jim Rogers <[hidden email]>
>>> To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft's linux utilities - somewhat OT, or
>>> maybe not
>>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Actually Don, the Apple II preceded the IBM PC and had a very strong
>>> following. As the owner of a consulting firm that placed some Apple IIs
>>> doing some difficult, at that time, interfacing to main frames we
>>> welcomed the appearance of the IBM PC when it came on the scene. We had
>>> the second IBM PC in Birmingham and after a couple of days of evaluation
>>> recompiled our software and the rest was history.
>>>
>>> 73s Jim, W4ATK
>>> On 5/27/2014 9:31 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>>> And those computers Tom Watson was speaking of took a large controlled
>>>> environment room just for the various pieces. It was certainly not a
>>>> desktop computer.
>>>> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
>>>> PC in the 1980s. I bought my daughter a new IBM PC with 2 floppy
>>>> drives and 64k of ram for her to use in her college classes. It was
>>>> later upgraded with a 5 MB hard drive which replaced one of the floppy
>>>> drives (3.5 inch floppys).
>>>>
>>>> We have come a long way since that time. That system cost $2500 at
>>>> the time, now I can buy a computer with a LOT more capability for less
>>>> than $300.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Don W3FPR
>>>>
>>>> On 5/27/2014 9:43 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>>>> At sometime in the 50's, the President of IBM is alleged to have
>>>>> said, "The worldwide market for computers is probably about twelve."
>>>>> Apparently he didn't know Doug.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred K6DGW
>>>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>>>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>>>>> - www.cqp.org
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/27/2014 1:29 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I probably have 15 working computers.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Eric Ross

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

I believe Fred Flintstone's computer also used quite a bit of silicon
and other minerals.

Eric

On Wed, May 28, 2014, at 10:18 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:

> "Computers in the Stone Age": I wonder what Fred Flintstone's computer
> looked like? :=)
>
> > The IBM PC, which I bought in 1982 plus or minus a couple of years,
> > cost me $5,000 in the dollars of the day.
>
> It's interesting that the latest, greatest, bleeding-edge PC always
> seems to cost about $4000-$5000. Then a year later you can buy the same
> thing for $1000. And a couple years after that it goes on the scrap
> heap because it no longer has enough memory / hard disc space /
> processor speed to run current software.
>
> Alan N1AL
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Tony Estep

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

My first computer was a Sol-20 (1977), with an 8080 and 16K of RAM. There
was a skeletal OS in ROM, but you could load a bigger OS and/or Basic from
cassette. Later, I got floppy drives and North Star Basic, and still later
8" floppies and the CP/M OS. I wrote a machine-language driver to relocate
North Star Basic and link it to CP/M -- the state of the art for a couple
of months. I also made some hardware I/O gadgets with spring
lever-switches, and a space battle game to go with them. When you hit your
target, it rang the bell on the printer.

The power of that machine was way, way less than what's in a dishwasher now.

Tony KT0NY
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Fred Townsend-2

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Ted I would argue e-mail and the Internet still are and always have been separate systems. One is a network and the other an application. It is well known that e-mail systems were around a long time before the Internet became common. There was a system called Fidonet that used all kinds of networks including satellite and packet radio as well as dial up for linking.

I think most will agree that UNIX with native networking and e-mail apps really enabled the Internet and e-mail as we know it today. Add a browser app and you had the web.

73, Fred, AE6QL

>
>The most significant development, which some folks today don't remember or
>never knew, is that e-mail and the Internet began as separate systems.
>>
>Ted, KN1CBR
>
>

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Kevin Cozens-2

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Gerry Hull

Someone wrote:
> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
> PC in the 1980s.

(Among?) The first desktop computers were the S-100 bus based machines.
First, the Altair 8800 announced on the cover of Popular Electronics
magazine in January 1976, and its later popular variant the IMSAI 8080. They
were in boxes along the size of 17" rack mount sized boxes with
high-amperage power supplies.

Other early desktop computers that came along not long after were the Apple
I and II lines, and the Commodore computers such as their PET.

Josh W6XU wrote:
> Maybe he's remembering running DR-DOS on the Apple II? Required a Z80 card.

PC-DOS/MS-DOS/DR-DOS were all for the IBM PC and compatible computers. The
plug-in card for the Apple II and later computers that had the Z-80 CPU on
it was so that you could run CP/M. I have one for my pair of Apple computers.

The plug-in card and floppy disk system used with the Apple II could be
thought of as the K2 of its day. It may seem quaint today but the disk
system was a marvel of engineering in its simplicity and elegance.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
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MontyS

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Tony Estep

The memory on my Altair 8800, 8k of dynamic ram, cost $800. That's 10 cents
a byte.

Do the math - my 16gig iPhone would cost an awful lot at 10 cents a byte.

Monty K2DLJ

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Kevin Cozens-2

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

On 14-05-28 02:22 PM, MontyS wrote:
> The memory on my Altair 8800, 8k of dynamic ram, cost $800. That's 10 cents
> a byte.

The kit you could buy, announced on the cover of Popular Electronics where
it said "save over $1000", was around $400, IIRC. An early BYTE magazine I
contained an ad for a 256Meg plug-in memory card for an S-100 bus that costs
about $10,000US. Advance a few years and 256Meg of RAM was in a single chip
that costs around $10 or less.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
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Jeff kb2m

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

Ok, here goes... I remember in 1982 buying a 2k memory add on module for my Telephonix desktop computer for $2200.00. I bought a loaded XT in 1985 for $11,700 it had 2 10 meg hard drives, and something called a 370 option, which allowed me to port my mainframe IBM object code from my radar analysis toolset and get it to run under VM/PC, on the PC. We also developed the first 3rd party ISA card on the IBM buss. I remember sitting down for a morning with several IBM engineers going over machine cycles. They told us we couldn't do it, we did. I remember making my own DB-9's by hacksawing down a DB-25. I had the first AT on the eastcoast, when I spilled a cup of coffee on the keyboard, I had to drive 70 miles to the IBM office in Philly to get a replacement...

73 Jeff kb2m

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Michael Walker

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

I started on the AN/FSQ7

64,000 tubes
512k of actual core memory -- 33 bit words
drums for buffers

And, we had 2 of these... system A and system B

air conditioners that could make 20 tons of ice in a day.

We called it Norad and it was 600ft underground in VE3 land. I worked for
IBM at the time.

Mike va3mw

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:59 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ok, here goes... I remember in 1982 buying a 2k memory add on module for
> my Telephonix desktop computer for $2200.00. I bought a loaded XT in 1985
> for $11,700 it had 2 10 meg hard drives, and something called a 370
> option, which allowed me to port my mainframe IBM object code from my radar
> analysis toolset and get it to run under VM/PC, on the PC. We also
> developed the first 3rd party ISA card on the IBM buss. I remember sitting
> down for a morning with several IBM engineers going over machine cycles.
> They told us we couldn't do it, we did. I remember making my own DB-9's by
> hacksawing down a DB-25. I had the first AT on the eastcoast, when I
> spilled a cup of coffee on the keyboard, I had to drive 70 miles to the IBM
> office in Philly to get a replacement...
>
> 73 Jeff kb2m
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

wb4jfi

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Kevin Cozens-2

I still have a working IMSAI 8800 with three SA-800 drives and an H19
terminal. I can boot CP/M and run Wordstar, several Basics, a Pascal and a
C compiler. Plus, most of the CP/M-UG and SIG/M-UG disks. I also have an
Altair 8800 and an Altair 8800 "Turnkey" (no front panel), along with
several other S-100 cards. The Altair ran one of the first bulletin boards
in the country (Ward Christensen CBBS) for AMRAD. I also have my first
5-slot IBM PC, and many versions of DOS.

The Commodore 64 also had a Z80 card, which allowed you to run CP/M.

How about a nice game of chess?
73, Terry, WB4JFI

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Cozens
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:19 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

Someone wrote:
> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
> PC in the 1980s.

(Among?) The first desktop computers were the S-100 bus based machines.
First, the Altair 8800 announced on the cover of Popular Electronics
magazine in January 1976, and its later popular variant the IMSAI 8080. They
were in boxes along the size of 17" rack mount sized boxes with
high-amperage power supplies.

Other early desktop computers that came along not long after were the Apple
I and II lines, and the Commodore computers such as their PET.

Josh W6XU wrote:
> Maybe he's remembering running DR-DOS on the Apple II? Required a Z80
> card.

PC-DOS/MS-DOS/DR-DOS were all for the IBM PC and compatible computers. The
plug-in card for the Apple II and later computers that had the Z-80 CPU on
it was so that you could run CP/M. I have one for my pair of Apple
computers.

The plug-in card and floppy disk system used with the Apple II could be
thought of as the K2 of its day. It may seem quaint today but the disk
system was a marvel of engineering in its simplicity and elegance.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
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w2bvh

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

My 1st "computer" was a development system for the Rockwell PPS4 pmos cpu. Next was a Motorola Exorciser for the MC6800 .... assembly was done on a DEC PDP8 & debugging on the Exorciser. Next a Millenium 2000 development system (later bought out by Tektronix) for the Intel 8080 and a n Intel MDS800, also for the 8080/8085. Then an HP 64 000 system for developing on multiple processors (8085, 68000, F8).

I didn't get a personal computer until 1982 when someone plopped an original IBM PC on my desk with DOS 1.0.

All very nostalgic. A great time was had by all during those days. Programing down to the iron is very rare now. Justifiably so, but the skills learned on those machines are still quite useful (and I'm still using the skills , only on much better hardware). No more clock cycle counting and highwater marking the stacks though ;-).

73,

Lenny W2BVH

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]
To: "Kevin Cozens" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 3:05:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

I still have a working IMSAI 8800 with three SA-800 drives and an H19
terminal. I can boot CP/M and run Wordstar, several Basics, a Pascal and a
C compiler. Plus, most of the CP/M-UG and SIG/M-UG disks. I also have an
Altair 8800 and an Altair 8800 "Turnkey" (no front panel), along with
several other S-100 cards. The Altair ran one of the first bulletin boards
in the country (Ward Christensen CBBS) for AMRAD. I also have my first
5-slot IBM PC, and many versions of DOS.

The Commodore 64 also had a Z80 card, which allowed you to run CP/M.

How about a nice game of chess?
73, Terry, WB4JFI

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Cozens
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:19 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

Someone wrote:
> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
> PC in the 1980s.

(Among?) The first desktop computers were the S-100 bus based machines.
First, the Altair 8800 announced on the cover of Popular Electronics
magazine in January 1976, and its later popular variant the IMSAI 8080. They
were in boxes along the size of 17" rack mount sized boxes with
high-amperage power supplies.

Other early desktop computers that came along not long after were the Apple
I and II lines, and the Commodore computers such as their PET.

Josh W6XU wrote:
> Maybe he's remembering running DR-DOS on the Apple II? Required a Z80
> card.

PC-DOS/MS-DOS/DR-DOS were all for the IBM PC and compatible computers. The
plug-in card for the Apple II and later computers that had the Z-80 CPU on
it was so that you could run CP/M. I have one for my pair of Apple
computers.

The plug-in card and floppy disk system used with the Apple II could be
thought of as the K2 of its day. It may seem quaint today but the disk
system was a marvel of engineering in its simplicity and elegance.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
______________________________________________________________
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Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Kevin Cozens-2

Don't forget how revolutionary the Commodore VIC-20 was with all of 3.2 K of
RAM. We (Microlog) made a plug in called the AIR-1 for the VIC that allowed
CW & RTTY communications. I wrote a complete production test program in
BASIC that required no other test equipment but plugging in the AIR-1 and
running the tape loaded test program. It checked the CW copy, aligned the
AFSK generator and verified CW & PTT keying, all in that 3.2 K of RAM with
neat graphic indicators on the screen for the production testers.

Needless to say I REALLY got fancy when I had all of that extra memory to
play with on the later C-64. It was not the full 64K but LOTS more than the
VIC.

73, Charlie k3ICH

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Cozens" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

> Someone wrote:
>> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM
>> PC in the 1980s.
>
> (Among?) The first desktop computers were the S-100 bus based machines.
> First, the Altair 8800 announced on the cover of Popular Electronics
> magazine in January 1976, and its later popular variant the IMSAI 8080.
> They were in boxes along the size of 17" rack mount sized boxes with
> high-amperage power supplies.
>
> Other early desktop computers that came along not long after were the
> Apple I and II lines, and the Commodore computers such as their PET.
>
> Josh W6XU wrote:
>> Maybe he's remembering running DR-DOS on the Apple II? Required a Z80
>> card.
>
> PC-DOS/MS-DOS/DR-DOS were all for the IBM PC and compatible computers. The
> plug-in card for the Apple II and later computers that had the Z-80 CPU on
> it was so that you could run CP/M. I have one for my pair of Apple
> computers.
>
> The plug-in card and floppy disk system used with the Apple II could be
> thought of as the K2 of its day. It may seem quaint today but the disk
> system was a marvel of engineering in its simplicity and elegance.
>
> --
> Cheers!
>
> Kevin.
>
> http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that
> distract
> Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why
> we're
> | powerful!"
> #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Tony Estep

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Don't forget how revolutionary the Commodore VIC-20 was...

=============
And the somewhat similar Atari 880. I bought an 880 for my kids, along with
some games. One of the games had a copy-protected disk. My younger son, 8
years old at the time, soon figured out how to hack and defeat the copy
protection. He's now a network engineer with an MSEE.

Tony KT0NY
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Lewis Phelps

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

In reply to this post by Kevin Cozens-2

> Someone wrote:
>> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM PC in the 1980s.

Nah. Heathkit H89 came out in 1979. “All-in-One” desktop computer. Z-80 processor. CP/M OS addressed 64 KB and used 39 kb of that total. two 5” floppy drives (dual sided 800k) as an option. Later, somebody came up with a card that plugged into the 5” drive slot and gave 128K of silicon hard drive. Now THAT was advanced for its era. Booting from that was faster than lightning, for its time.

And do not forget the Ohio Scientific Instruments OSI Challenger 4P….

Lew

Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

Sent from my Mac Pro 256-Array Supercomputer (9.42 teraflops)

On May 28, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Kevin Cozens <[hidden email]> wrote:

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wb4jfi

Re: Computers in the Stone Age

And Metrovision (in the Washington DC area), the first licensed ATV
repeater, had a Mark-8 (an 8008) at the repeater site in 1974. We could
program it remotely using keyboards (in raw octal machine language), and the
results came back via a character generator on the video downlink.
73, Terry, WB4JFI

-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis Phelps
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:59 PM
To: [hidden email] List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

> Someone wrote:
>> Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM PC
>> in the 1980s.

Nah. Heathkit H89 came out in 1979. “All-in-One” desktop computer. Z-80
processor. CP/M OS addressed 64 KB and used 39 kb of that total. two 5”
floppy drives (dual sided 800k) as an option. Later, somebody came up with a
card that plugged into the 5” drive slot and gave 128K of silicon hard
drive. Now THAT was advanced for its era. Booting from that was faster than
lightning, for its time.

And do not forget the Ohio Scientific Instruments OSI Challenger 4P….

Lew

Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

Sent from my Mac Pro 256-Array Supercomputer (9.42 teraflops)

On May 28, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Kevin Cozens <[hidden email]> wrote:

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123