Concern

[alsopb]

Anybody else concerned about all the requests being made to add things?  

I personally don't want a box with 99 million menu choices or requires 99 button presses to get to more universally needed radio settings.    

Why not hold off all these requests until after say the first 2000 are in the hands of the users?

One will then have a more representative cross section of the users to judge the merits of requests.
I don't feel we yet have a representative cross section of eventual users.  

Just because you can do many things with a SDR, doesn't mean you should do them all.

This isn't to say the core of test implementers haven't done a fantastic job to date.  To the contrary.

73 de Brian/K3KO

[P.B. Christensen]

I'm sure Eric and Wayne are quite capable of filtering these requests based
on value, need and priority.  Most successful companies want, and depend on
constructive feedback like this.

Paul, W9AC

----- Original Message -----
From: "K3KO" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 8:02 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Concern

>
> Anybody else concerned about all the requests being made to add things?
>
> I personally don't want a box with 99 million menu choices or requires 99
> button presses to get to more universally needed radio settings.
>
> Why not hold off all these requests until after say the first 2000 are in
> the hands of the users?
>
> One will then have a more representative cross section of the users to
> judge
> the merits of requests.
> I don't feel we yet have a representative cross section of eventual users.
>
> Just because you can do many things with a SDR, doesn't mean you should do
> them all.
>
> This isn't to say the core of test implementers haven't done a fantastic
> job
> to date.  To the contrary.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Concern-tp16937363p16937363.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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[drewko]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 05:02:23 -0700 (PDT), Brian/K3KO wrote:

>
>Anybody else concerned about all the requests being made to add things?  
>
>I personally don't want a box with 99 million menu choices or requires 99
>button presses to get to more universally needed radio settings.    
>

I am fine with having a lot of features on the K3 even though I won't
be using most of them. I'll learn how to get to the ones I do want and
just ignore the rest. I realize the UI might not be perfect but I can
say that about any of a dozen different software applications which I
use regularly; can't really expect the K3 firmware and UI to suit me
perfectly if there aren't even any software applications which do. My
PC is a minefield of customizations which I've accumulated over the
years and still not totally happy with. I have sets of keyboard
macros, specific to different software application, to make them work
the way I think they should, and to tie different applications
together...

I wonder if at some point, if the K3 UI should indeed become too
cluttered, it might be desireable to have several different firmware
"models" to choose from: perhaps one catering to SSBers; another for
CW; one for general use, another for contesting, etc...

Hah, i guess that's not something you want to hear if you are looking
for less choice, is it. But hey, we are hams and are supposed to be
perpetually tinkering around with this stuff, right?

73,
Drew
AF2Z

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[Darrell Bellerive-2]

On Monday 28 April 2008 05:02, K3KO wrote:
> Anybody else concerned about all the requests being made to add things?
> 73 de Brian/K3KO

Absolutely!

Exactly one year ago today Wayne Burdick, N6KR, wrote:
"The K2 is an ongoing product that we'll be updating as time permits. As
you may know, we're not a large company, so our engineering resources
will be stretched at times."

I think that after a full year of K3 development, Wayne and the rest of the
Elecraft R&D team should take a break from the K3 and go back to K2
development. And I'm sure those waiting on the KPA800 and KPA1500 would like
to see some progress there too.

That should get the K3 whiners going. :=) <flame suit on>

73,
Darrell   VA7TO   K2 #5093


--
Darrell Bellerive
Amateur Radio Stations VA7TO and VE7CLA
Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada
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[w7aqk]

Darrell And All,

No flame intended here, but just what do you expect to be done for the K2?
Remember, the K2 is not expandable like the K3.  It did have some spare room
in the firmware initially, but I think much, if not most, of it has been
used up.  Furthermore, the K2 had many, many years of being pretty much
center stage, so I think you can reasonably say the K2 is "mature", or at
least nearly so within it's range of possibilities.  Sure, it can still be
improved in bits and pieces here and there, but not as dramatically as can
the K3.  I think many of the significant improvements that could be made to
the K2 would require considerable reworking of the design, or at least the
physical properties in the K2.  I may be dead wrong about this, but that is
certainly what I was led to believe by the folks at Elecraft themselves when
they first announced the K3.  In other words, Elecraft was breaking out from
the limitations inherent in their own K2 design by initiating the K3.  If
you have a thirst for some substantial increase in performance in your K2, I
think what you really need to a K3!

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell Bellerive" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Concern

> Exactly one year ago today Wayne Burdick, N6KR, wrote:
> "The K2 is an ongoing product that we'll be updating as time permits. As
> you may know, we're not a large company, so our engineering resources
> will be stretched at times."
>
> I think that after a full year of K3 development, Wayne and the rest of
> the
> Elecraft R&D team should take a break from the K3 and go back to K2
> development. And I'm sure those waiting on the KPA800 and KPA1500 would
> like
> to see some progress there too.
>
> That should get the K3 whiners going. :=) <flame suit on>
>
> 73,
> Darrell   VA7TO   K2 #5093
>
>
> --
> Darrell Bellerive
> Amateur Radio Stations VA7TO and VE7CLA
> Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada
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[Mike Harris-9]

G'day,

Some of us have been asking for years for the individual K2 VFO's to
remember the mode they were last used on.  On the "list" I believe.
Despite all the bells and whistles, I've yet to find anything I can't hear
on the K2 as well as I can on the K3.  It's taken me a while to make the
K3 on RX sound just as nice.  The main thing that swung me towards to K3
was the Sub-RX option.  One day we might see it.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Yarnes" <[hidden email]>
To: "Darrell Bellerive" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Concern


| Darrell And All,
|
| No flame intended here, but just what do you expect to be done for the
K2?
| Remember, the K2 is not expandable like the K3.  It did have some spare
room
| in the firmware initially, but I think much, if not most, of it has been
| used up.  Furthermore, the K2 had many, many years of being pretty much
| center stage, so I think you can reasonably say the K2 is "mature", or
at
| least nearly so within it's range of possibilities.  Sure, it can still
be
| improved in bits and pieces here and there, but not as dramatically as
can
| the K3.  I think many of the significant improvements that could be made
to
| the K2 would require considerable reworking of the design, or at least
the
| physical properties in the K2.  I may be dead wrong about this, but that
is
| certainly what I was led to believe by the folks at Elecraft themselves
when
| they first announced the K3.  In other words, Elecraft was breaking out
from
| the limitations inherent in their own K2 design by initiating the K3.
If
| you have a thirst for some substantial increase in performance in your
K2, I
| think what you really need to a K3!

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[Brian Lloyd-6]

> "The K2 is an ongoing product that we'll be updating as time  
> permits. As
> you may know, we're not a large company, so our engineering resources
> will be stretched at times."
>
> I think that after a full year of K3 development, Wayne and the rest  
> of the
> Elecraft R&D team should take a break from the K3 and go back to K2
> development.

Other than an official Elecraft-supplied buffered audio input and  
output for data modes, what else would you add to the K2?

Brian Lloyd
Granite Bay Montessori School          9330 Sierra College Bl
brian AT gbmontessori DOT com          Roseville, CA 95661
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)                +1.791.912.8170 (fax)

PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C




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[Darrell Bellerive-2]

David and All,

Elecraft has stated that the K2 is an ongoing product and not replaced by the
K3. I have a considerable investment in my K2 and would like to believe
Elecraft when they state that they will continue to develop it. This is one
of the things that has separated Elecraft from the rest of the manufacturers
who will develop a rig to a certain point then discontinue it and replace it
with a new model.

Certainly the K3 is a more flexible radio and has a much greater potential for
a multitude of features. To me it would be very sad, if Elecraft only devoted
their engineering efforts on the K3. I can see where getting the announced
features working would be a priority, but K3 further enhancements should be
scheduled to at least allow for some development on the rest of their product
line.

There are many things that can still be done in the K2. First in my mind is to
fix the synthesizer clicks every 5 Khz when tuning in the presence of a
strong signal. I know this is a difficult one, but I feel it is a glaring
problem in an otherwise excellent receiver.

The K2 manual on page 6 states that "Other CW and SSB fixed crystal filter
options may be available." It would be nice to have more fixed crystal filter
options available. I would like to be able to add a 1.8 KHz fixed crystal
filter. Yes, the variable CW filter can be set to that bandwidth, but it has
considerable ripple at 1.8 KHz.

The noise blanker and VOX could be greatly improved. In the past there were
discussions that a high performance noise blanker could be developed. The
downside was that it would use mostly SMD components and not be in step with
the through-hole design philosophy of the K2. Most people were willing to
accept the deviation from the philosophy for the added performance.

Flatter 160 meter bandpass filter characteristics, less harmonics in the
sidetone, or built in digital mode interfaces are more examples.

There is also a list of firmware feature enhancements that have been asked for
over the years. I would love to see a menu option to delete the reverse
sideband selection from the mode button rotation. The CW RV key already
switches between USB and LSB, so not having to step through an unused mode
with the mode key would be welcome. Or a selectable range for the Keyer pot.

I would also like to see the KRC2 to be configurable to operate or release a
relay for things like ANT 1/2, TUNE, and PRE/ATT.

Also many of us have done considerable mods on our K2's, but we are limited by
the firmware. With active firmware development more mods could be supported.

I would love to see Elecraft open source the firmware, as it would allow
independent development of new features and hardware mods. This would really
allow the K2 to become an experimenters rig. I really have a hard time
believing that open sourcing the K2 firmware would give away all of
Elecraft's secrets or cause them financial loss. I would expect it would
increase sales as more experimenters would be attracted to the rig.

If Elecraft can't be persuaded to open source the K2 firmware, and have no
time to further develop it, another solution is to grant a licence to a few
independent developers. Like the Giehl and N4PY chips for some Ten-Tec rigs,
or the DSWK chip for the Small Wonder Labs DSW and DSW-II transceivers.

Like those waiting for K3's, I too hope that Elecraft catches up very soon so
that they can further develop existing products and bring new ones to market.

73,
Darrell  VA7TO  K2 #5093



On Monday 28 April 2008 14:25, David Yarnes wrote:

> Darrell And All,
>
> No flame intended here, but just what do you expect to be done for the K2?
> Remember, the K2 is not expandable like the K3.  It did have some spare
> room in the firmware initially, but I think much, if not most, of it has
> been used up.  Furthermore, the K2 had many, many years of being pretty
> much center stage, so I think you can reasonably say the K2 is "mature", or
> at least nearly so within it's range of possibilities.  Sure, it can still
> be improved in bits and pieces here and there, but not as dramatically as
> can the K3.  I think many of the significant improvements that could be
> made to the K2 would require considerable reworking of the design, or at
> least the physical properties in the K2.  I may be dead wrong about this,
> but that is certainly what I was led to believe by the folks at Elecraft
> themselves when they first announced the K3.  In other words, Elecraft was
> breaking out from the limitations inherent in their own K2 design by
> initiating the K3.  If you have a thirst for some substantial increase in
> performance in your K2, I think what you really need to a K3!
>
> Dave W7AQK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Darrell Bellerive" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Concern
>
> > Exactly one year ago today Wayne Burdick, N6KR, wrote:
> > "The K2 is an ongoing product that we'll be updating as time permits. As
> > you may know, we're not a large company, so our engineering resources
> > will be stretched at times."
> >
> > I think that after a full year of K3 development, Wayne and the rest of
> > the
> > Elecraft R&D team should take a break from the K3 and go back to K2
> > development. And I'm sure those waiting on the KPA800 and KPA1500 would
> > like
> > to see some progress there too.
> >
> > That should get the K3 whiners going. :=) <flame suit on>
> >
> > 73,
> > Darrell   VA7TO   K2 #5093

--
Darrell Bellerive
Amateur Radio Stations VA7TO and VE7CLA
Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada
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[Brian Lloyd-6]

> The K2 manual on page 6 states that "Other CW and SSB fixed crystal  
> filter
> options may be available." It would be nice to have more fixed  
> crystal filter
> options available. I would like to be able to add a 1.8 KHz fixed  
> crystal
> filter. Yes, the variable CW filter can be set to that bandwidth,  
> but it has
> considerable ripple at 1.8 KHz.

OK, yeah, the ripple is pretty bad. Sounds weird but, you know, it  
seems to have the ripple set just right to really pull a voice out of  
the mush. That ripply 1.8KHz filter is amazing! OTOH, the SSB filter  
is really nice and when you crank the variable filter down to 1KHz or  
less it is quite nice too.

> The noise blanker and VOX could be greatly improved. In the past  
> there were
> discussions that a high performance noise blanker could be  
> developed. The
> downside was that it would use mostly SMD components and not be in  
> step with
> the through-hole design philosophy of the K2. Most people were  
> willing to
> accept the deviation from the philosophy for the added performance.

There are a lot of people building SMD stuff. The SoftRock boards have  
a lot of people doing SMD work. I had a workshop at the school for the  
kids to learn to do SMD soldering. They like it more than through-
hole. We are talking 5th-graders here. If they can do it, you can too.  
I now have 5 SoftRock V6.2 RxTx 80/40 RxTx boards and 5 SoftRock Lite  
V6.2 40M boards in various stages of construction in the classroom.

> Flatter 160 meter bandpass filter characteristics, less harmonics in  
> the
> sidetone, or built in digital mode interfaces are more examples.

Is the sidetone really an issue?

> Also many of us have done considerable mods on our K2's, but we are  
> limited by
> the firmware. With active firmware development more mods could be  
> supported.

I think this is a key point. Open the K2 firmware for others to do  
development on it would be a great thing.

Brian Lloyd
Granite Bay Montessori School          9330 Sierra College Bl
brian AT gbmontessori DOT com          Roseville, CA 95661
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)                +1.791.912.8170 (fax)

PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C




Brian Lloyd
Granite Bay Montessori School          9330 Sierra College Bl
brian AT gbmontessori DOT com          Roseville, CA 95661
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)                +1.791.912.8170 (fax)

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[KK7P]

> I think this is a key point. Open the K2 firmware for others to do
> development on it would be a great thing.

The K2 DSP firmware is and has been open since inception.  Free
development tools, too.  DSP source code and pointers to tools have been
on the Elecraft website since mid-2003.

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[Mike S-8]

At 06:38 PM 4/28/2008, Brian Lloyd wrote...
Other than an official Elecraft-supplied buffered audio input and
>output for data modes, what else would you add to the K2?

Open source firmware.

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[Brian Lloyd-6]

On Apr 28, 2008, at 5:26 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote:

>> I think this is a key point. Open the K2 firmware for others to do  
>> development on it would be a great thing.
>
> The K2 DSP firmware is and has been open since inception.  Free  
> development tools, too.  DSP source code and pointers to tools have  
> been on the Elecraft website since mid-2003.

I was thinking more of the code in the main control processor but it  
is good to know that the DSP is open. Thanks.

--

73 de Brian, WB6RQN
Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com



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[Bill Coleman-2]

On Apr 28, 2008, at 6:38 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

> Other than an official Elecraft-supplied buffered audio input and  
> output for data modes, what else would you add to the K2?

I made a list last year as part of this same thread:
http://www.nabble.com/forum/ViewPost.jtp?post=14076398&framed=y

I thought it was a pretty good list. And it doesn't look like I'm  
going to be able to afford a K3 anytime soon, either.

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: [hidden email]
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
             -- Wilbur Wright, 1901

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