Contest Reflections

[Julius Fazekas n2wn]

Doug,

1.  QSK.  This is user skill level dependent.  If you
do 20 wpm or less, the K2 QSK may be fine for you.
During contesting, I am going at least 32-34 wpm, and
not uncommonly at 40wpm.  At these speeds and during a
contest, I NEED to hear everything immediately (that
is what top-end contesting is about).  So not hearing
between dits at "slow" contest speeds of 32 wpm is an
issue for me.  NOTE that I still used the K2 despite
that deficit because OVERALL, it is a great radio.
But
for someone used to real QSK, this is not real QSK.
Ask other serious contesters and they will say the
same.  For most K2 users, who are clearly not serious
contesters, this is not an issue at all.  Since the K3
says "very much better QSK than the K2," I would
easily assume that the deficit is real and
acknowledged.

*** I would argue that this is not "skill level"
dependent, but user preference. Considering the number
of Yaesu rigs used by the top ops, QSK isn't an end
all issue. If 32 WPM is "slow", I've been in the wrong
contests. I listen to some of the folks cranking at
over 35WPM and don't see any advantage when you look
at the repeat rates. Maybe time is saved with non
relevant items or repeatable items like CQ TEST or
5NN, but unless conditions or you have a killer
signal, high speed means high repeat rates.

2.  Stable power output.  

*** I've not seen this problem in QRP mode with my
K2's either as standalone or with the KPA installed. I
have had some issues on 160, but attribute this more
to my antennas than the radio.

SO IN CONCLUSION
The K2 is an awesome value and for all, including
serious contesters. At US$600 base, nobody expects it
to be 100% perfect for all market niches.  This is
clearly the ABSOLUTE BEST VALUE going in ham radio.

*** There are more than a few "serious" contesters
here. Like you, I read the various contest reflectors
and I doubt there is a single rig that would define
the "ultimate" contesting radio. This is very
subjective. It is also dependent on the category you
play in, how you operate, what you have for antennas.
What one might want for a major HP M/M operation is
not the same that a SOSB op would want. Yes, there are
basics that everyone wants... a bulletproof receiver
comes to mind ;o) Some of us would like to see the HP
stations have better Tx performance (better keying
shape, stop overdriving their amps).

The K2 has exceeded it's design purpose as I see it.
As a CW contest rig, I can't think of anything I'd
rather have... well except the K3 ;o)

Thanks for the Q in WPX!

Julius
n2wn

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[Sam Morgan]

J F wrote:

> Doug,
>
> 1.  QSK.  This is user skill level dependent.  If you
> do 20 wpm or less, the K2 QSK may be fine for you.
> During contesting, I am going at least 32-34 wpm, and
> not uncommonly at 40wpm.  At these speeds and during a
> contest, I NEED to hear everything immediately (that
> is what top-end contesting is about).  So not hearing
> between dits at "slow" contest speeds of 32 wpm is an
> issue for me.  

snip
> *** I would argue that this is not "skill level"
> dependent, but user preference.
snip
> I listen to some of the folks cranking at
> over 35WPM and don't see any advantage when you look
> at the repeat rates. Maybe time is saved with non
> relevant items or repeatable items like CQ TEST or
> 5NN, but unless conditions or you have a killer
> signal, high speed means high repeat rates.
>
perhaps stretching the topic a bit,
but here's my, low speed, 2nd class commoner's 2 cents on the "top-end
contesting" game.

My cw qso speed is a comfy 13-15wpm.
I can sorta copy (75%) at about 20-22wpm.
When I participate in the (other than qrp) contests, like the wpx,
it's strictly to see if/where I can be heard and to hand out a few points.
I can cope with the 25wpm and under guys just fine.
I figure it only enhances my learning.

Above that I have to listen to the guy as many times as it takes,
sometime 10 or more, just to get his call and the exchange info,
so when/if I answer him he won't have to deal with my requests for repeats.

If he isn't rare dx that I want to see if I can be heard by.
(Not for certificates, but just for my own satisfaction that I was heard)
I don't even bother with him.

Is that a fun way to contest? no.
Do I get fed up with the 40wpm (sic) big contesters? often.
Do I usually just blow them off and they don't get my contact for points?
You better believe it.

Just another view of how the fast ones often fail to serve themselves well by
going so bloody fast. More power to them that they are capable of doing so. I
just wonder how many q's they miss out on in doing so?

--
GB & 73's
KA5OAI
Sam Morgan
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[W2AGN-2]

Sam Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:
(05/30/2007 22:33)

>
>My cw qso speed is a comfy 13-15wpm.
>I can sorta copy (75%) at about 20-22wpm.
>When I participate in the (other than qrp) contests, like the wpx,
>it's strictly to see if/where I can be heard and to hand out a few points.
>I can cope with the 25wpm and under guys just fine.
>I figure it only enhances my learning.
>
>Above that I have to listen to the guy as many times as it takes,
>sometime 10 or more, just to get his call and the exchange info,
>so when/if I answer him he won't have to deal with my requests for repeats.
>
>If he isn't rare dx that I want to see if I can be heard by.
>(Not for certificates, but just for my own satisfaction that I was heard)
>I don't even bother with him.
>
>Is that a fun way to contest? no.
>Do I get fed up with the 40wpm (sic) big contesters? often.
>Do I usually just blow them off and they don't get my contact for points?
>You better believe it.
>
>Just another view of how the fast ones often fail to serve themselves well by
>going so bloody fast. More power to them that they are capable of doing so. I
>just wonder how many q's they miss out on in doing so?
>
>--
>GB & 73's
>KA5OAI
>Sam Morgan

Not that many. There are plenty of contesters running at 30-40 wpm.

"Dissing" contesters because  you do not have the skill  they have is
rather like the Sunday Buick driver  complaining he is not allowed  
to drive  his Buick in the Indy 500.

John - W2AGN
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[Julius Fazekas n2wn]

Sam,

I think there are more than a few who feel the way you
do. Generally, if some one comes back to me slow when
I'm running, I'll drop my speed some, probably above
what they were sending at, but slow enough where I
think they can get the exchange right the first time.

Lately, I've noticed a lot of folks who send quite
slow and I speculate these are first time contesters.
I figure they want to learn the game, but may get
frustrated if blown out of the water. In my mind it's
better to slow down, make a solid contact and let the
other guy feel good about it as well.

The last few big contests I picked up some nice
multipliers from guys who were sending slow with
pileups on them, not because I was the loudest, but
because I sent at a rate they could copy...

>
> My cw qso speed is a comfy 13-15wpm.
> I can sorta copy (75%) at about 20-22wpm.
>
> Above that I have to listen to the guy as many times
> as it takes,
> sometime 10 or more, just to get his call and the
> exchange info,
> so when/if I answer him he won't have to deal with
> my requests for repeats.

This is a good way to pick up your speed. Much easier
if the signal is solid, generally one of the
superstations. I'd say the vast majority of contesters
run in the mid 20 WPM to the low 30s... Some of the
Eastern and Southern EU will crank 40+. Some exchanges
are a lot easier to recognize than others at those
rates.
>
> Is that a fun way to contest? no.

If it's not fun, pass 'em by... Of course, not
everything in a contest is "fun". How you want to play
makes it fun. It's a rush to get a run going and
working smoothly, it's a lot of fun to find a rare one
all by his lonesome. The vast majority of the folks
who play great. Like everything else in life, there
are those who you wish weren't involved.

> I just wonder how many q's they miss out on in doing
> so?

It's an interesting question and would make for an
interesting study. Assuming you could get unbiased
reporting from both sides, it might change the
perspective of some.

Hope to catch you in one of the contests. Don't be
afraid to send QRS if ya need to.

Julius
n2wn
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[Julius Fazekas n2wn]

> Not that many. There are plenty of contesters
> running at 30-40 wpm.

I think the best ones know when to drop their speed,
or the QSO in some cases, else they gum up their runs.
If someone has plenty of folks coming back to them at
high speeds, they won't break cadence for someone
slow, unless that signal is overpowering.

>
> "Dissing" contesters because  you do not have the
> skill  they have is
> rather like the Sunday Buick driver  complaining he
> is not allowed  
> to drive  his Buick in the Indy 500.
>
> John - W2AGN
>


That's why they have dirt tracks, drag strips, NASCAR,
demolition derbies, La Mans... you have to drive in
'em all, but they all have different skill sets (and
equipment). Some can master them all, some don't want
to...

Cheers,
Julius
n2wn  
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[Doug Person]

To some degree there is a bit of speed snobbery out there. I too am
comfortable as 13-15 wpm.  Too often, someone will return on my cq at
about 20.  I do my best but it just isn't fun.  I can't copy in my head
and I have arthritis in my hands and can't write faster than about 15.  
The best solution is to join FISTS and work lots of FISTS stations.  
These guys and girls are a real pleasure and helped me make cw an
enjoyable mode to operate.

73 - Doug --K0DXV

Sam Morgan wrote:

> J F wrote:
>> Doug,
>>
>> 1.  QSK.  This is user skill level dependent.  If you
>> do 20 wpm or less, the K2 QSK may be fine for you. During contesting,
>> I am going at least 32-34 wpm, and
>> not uncommonly at 40wpm.  At these speeds and during a
>> contest, I NEED to hear everything immediately (that
>> is what top-end contesting is about).  So not hearing
>> between dits at "slow" contest speeds of 32 wpm is an
>> issue for me.  
> snip
>> *** I would argue that this is not "skill level"
>> dependent, but user preference.
> snip
>> I listen to some of the folks cranking at
>> over 35WPM and don't see any advantage when you look
>> at the repeat rates. Maybe time is saved with non
>> relevant items or repeatable items like CQ TEST or
>> 5NN, but unless conditions or you have a killer
>> signal, high speed means high repeat rates.
>>
> perhaps stretching the topic a bit,
> but here's my, low speed, 2nd class commoner's 2 cents on the "top-end
> contesting" game.
>
> My cw qso speed is a comfy 13-15wpm.
> I can sorta copy (75%) at about 20-22wpm.
> When I participate in the (other than qrp) contests, like the wpx,
> it's strictly to see if/where I can be heard and to hand out a few
> points.
> I can cope with the 25wpm and under guys just fine.
> I figure it only enhances my learning.
>
> Above that I have to listen to the guy as many times as it takes,
> sometime 10 or more, just to get his call and the exchange info,
> so when/if I answer him he won't have to deal with my requests for
> repeats.
>
> If he isn't rare dx that I want to see if I can be heard by.
> (Not for certificates, but just for my own satisfaction that I was heard)
> I don't even bother with him.
>
> Is that a fun way to contest? no.
> Do I get fed up with the 40wpm (sic) big contesters? often.
> Do I usually just blow them off and they don't get my contact for points?
> You better believe it.
>
> Just another view of how the fast ones often fail to serve themselves
> well by going so bloody fast. More power to them that they are capable
> of doing so. I just wonder how many q's they miss out on in doing so?
>

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[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy-2]

J F <[hidden email]> wrote :

> Lately, I've noticed a lot of folks who send quite
> slow and I speculate these are first time contesters.
> I figure they want to learn the game, but may get
> frustrated if blown out of the water.

> The last few big contests I picked up some nice
> multipliers from guys who were sending slow with
> pileups on them, not because I was the loudest, but
> because I sent at a rate they could copy...
--------------------------------------------------------

Hi Julius,

Perhaps some of the people who keep the speed down could work at 40wpm, but
are experienced in the effects of propagation on paths where multipliers
might be lurking. A good example of this can be found on the 40m short path
(0500 Z ish) from here to the West Coast. During the WPX there were many CA
stations heard at good strength, those running at high speed were difficult
if not impossible to copy because of the usual echo and auroral zone flutter
which runs characters together, but those running at slow speed allowed for
good copy.

As you know I am not a Contester but enjoy dabbling :-)

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD


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[Darwin, Keith]

I think a heads-up contester could pick up more points by slowing down
during those times when the QSO rate has dropped.  Better to call one
time at 12 wpm and work a station than to call 10 times at 30 wpm and
work nobody.  I've not heard this during a contest however.  Seems most
are only interested in collecting high-speed points and would prefer to
continue calling CQ TEST at 30 wpm with no answer.

Yea, I know speed changes are not always easy to do, but if it helps the
final score, I bet folks would find a way.

- Keith N1AS -
- K2 5411.ssb.100 -
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[Julius Fazekas n2wn]

> Hi Julius,
>
> Perhaps some of the people who keep the speed down
> could work at 40wpm, but
> are experienced in the effects of propagation on
> paths where multipliers
> might be lurking. A good example of this can be
> found on the 40m short path
> (0500 Z ish) from here to the West Coast. During the
> WPX there were many CA
> stations heard at good strength, those running at
> high speed were difficult
> if not impossible to copy because of the usual echo
> and auroral zone flutter
> which runs characters together, but those running at
> slow speed allowed for
> good copy.

The longer one plays in CW contests, particularly the
majors, the easier it is to copy high speed code. Your
observation is another example of a good reason to be
flexible when it comes to speed. I just find it
humorous when I'm doing S&P to listen to some guys
cranking HSC and repeating the exchange 5 or 6 times
before either the QSO is made, or one or the other
gives up in frustration. It's a judgment call fer
sure.

I guess "winning" to me includes not discouraging
newbies or scaring away folks who may not be so
anti-contest if someone takes a little more time with
them. Maybe I can afford to do this as a LP or QRP
operator, certainly contesting is stratified, and
folks have different perspectives and objectives...

I'm getting way too long winded on this Geoff! ;o)

Cheers,

Julius
n2wn
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[ac0h]

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Hash: SHA1

That's exactly it.

I worked one field day with a bunch of guys out in the Black Hills. Each
one of them capable and comfortable at 40+ wpm. They always ran at
17-22wpm with the logic being there are a lot more guys/gals out there
that can work that speed range copying a contest exchange than there are
 guys/gals who can do 40+.

They finish top 10 in the country EVERY YEAR!

I'd think the same logic would work in "real" contests as well. Unless
the speed merchants actually like sending their exchanges 10 times to
get one Q in the log.

Darwin, Keith wrote:

> I think a heads-up contester could pick up more points by slowing down
> during those times when the QSO rate has dropped.  Better to call one
> time at 12 wpm and work a station than to call 10 times at 30 wpm and
> work nobody.  I've not heard this during a contest however.  Seems most
> are only interested in collecting high-speed points and would prefer to
> continue calling CQ TEST at 30 wpm with no answer.
>
> Yea, I know speed changes are not always easy to do, but if it helps the
> final score, I bet folks would find a way.
>
> - Keith N1AS -
> - K2 5411.ssb.100 -

- --
R. Kevin Stover, ACØH
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[Rick Tavan N6XI]

Serious, skilled contesters play to win by maximizing rate when CQing. If
they have so many responses that it becomes difficult to pick out calls,
they QRQ to work them as quickly as possible. If they have too few
responses, they QRS to attract more callers. Faster, louder callers get
through sooner. If conditions like fading or echo make copy difficult at
high speed, skilled ops slow down.  If they are loud and fast, they win.
There may be a few "bulls in the china shop" who persist at high speed
despite indications that it's hurting their score. They lose. It's that
simple.

On the calling side, if you are weak and/or slow, you won't get through as
quickly as those who are loud and fast. Be patient. Copy repetitive exchange
items while you wait. Anticipate subsequent serial numbers. These techniques
increase your ability to complete a QSO when you do get through, even at a
higher speed than you can use for rag-chewing.  If you aren't getting
through, come back when the fast operator's rate declines. Most will QRS
when they work a slow caller, at least after a repeat request. Winning ops
want to work everyone they can. They just do it in the most rational
sequence to maximize their own score.

Did you know that a good radio makes it easier to copy at high speed?
Ringing filters, mushy audio and invasive DSP reduce your effective code
speed. That's why I love my K2 and why I look forward to the K3.

/Rick N6XI

On 5/31/07, R. Kevin Stover <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> That's exactly it.
>
> I worked one field day with a bunch of guys out in the Black Hills. Each
> one of them capable and comfortable at 40+ wpm. They always ran at
> 17-22wpm with the logic being there are a lot more guys/gals out there
> that can work that speed range copying a contest exchange than there are
> guys/gals who can do 40+.
>
> They finish top 10 in the country EVERY YEAR!
>
> I'd think the same logic would work in "real" contests as well. Unless
> the speed merchants actually like sending their exchanges 10 times to
> get one Q in the log.
>
> Darwin, Keith wrote:
> > I think a heads-up contester could pick up more points by slowing down
> > during those times when the QSO rate has dropped.  Better to call one
> > time at 12 wpm and work a station than to call 10 times at 30 wpm and
> > work nobody.  I've not heard this during a contest however.  Seems most
> > are only interested in collecting high-speed points and would prefer to
> > continue calling CQ TEST at 30 wpm with no answer.
> >
> > Yea, I know speed changes are not always easy to do, but if it helps the
> > final score, I bet folks would find a way.
> >
> > - Keith N1AS -
> > - K2 5411.ssb.100 -
>
>
> - --
> R. Kevin Stover, ACØH
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> =5A63
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--
"In days of old, when ops were bold, and sidebands not invented,
The word would pass, by pounding brass, and all were well contented."

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