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DSP and CW?

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Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

DSP and CW?

Does this combination make sense? I operate 100% CW. These days, I seem
to be chasing a lot of very weak signals with questionable readability.
My vertical isn't the quietest of antennas (they never are) and my
neighborhood has a fair amount of QRM on 40m during "real people hours".

For example, this morning I was trying to get KH2/JR4GPA. Copying his
sign was very tough, but I finally got it and confirmed it. I called
a couple of times but realized that I wouldn't recognize my call even
if he returned it! Just on the egde of ESP.

So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors provide.

Thanks!

73 de chris K6DBG
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Darwin, Keith

RE: DSP and CW?

I had the DSP in the K2. I wasn't impressed. I found DSP provided some
nice narrow bandpass filters but the NR features just left me cold.
Signals sounded watery, or, if you changed the settings, NR didn't do
much.

I suggest you give it a try. You might find it is the cat's meow, or
you may find it isn't worth the effort. If that's the case, sell it and
recoop your money.

- Keith N1AS -
- K2 5411.ssb.100 -

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Kantarjiev

So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors provide.

Thanks!

73 de chris K6DBG
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w1xt

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris... The Elecraft DSP in my K2, here in Arizona, was the difference
between hearing KH2/JR4GPA and not hearing him both yesterday morning
and this morning on 40M. I have it set for "Very aggressive." Distorts
the signal a bit but makes it possible to copy who he was answering.

--Bob W1XT, Surprise, AZ
K2 1434, 5812

>
> For example, this morning I was trying to get KH2/JR4GPA. Copying his
> sign was very tough, but I finally got it and confirmed it. I called
> a couple of times but realized that I wouldn't recognize my call even
> if he returned it! Just on the egde of ESP.
>
> So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
> doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors
> provide.

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Stephen W. Kercel

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris:

As you can see from other posts, opinions about the DSP module vary.
I have it and am very happy with it. I find the DSP narrow-band
filtering to be superior to an outboard QF-1 analog filter, and very
effective in enhancing the K2's crystal IF filtering. Set to the
"most aggressive" position, the DSP denoiser distorts the signal
quite noticeably, but more importantly, it enables me to copy signals
that I could not copy otherwise. (The distortion is not much of a
problem on CW, but I do not know how much it disrupts voice signals.)

There is one claim that I thought was an exaggeration, until I heard
for myself. With the denoiser on and set very aggressive, the audio
output in the absence of a signal is so quiet that you'll think that
the radio is off. This in no exaggeration. On a quiet band with the
denoiser on, I find myself occasionally toggling it off just to
verify that the radio is working OK.

I most highly recommend the DSP module.

On the other hand, I have never found the noise blanker to be
effective against the kind of noise present in my setting. Again, the
experience of different users varies according to their circumstances.

73,

Steve Kercel
AA4AK

At 10:24 AM 3/29/2007, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:

>Does this combination make sense? I operate 100% CW. These days, I seem
>to be chasing a lot of very weak signals with questionable readability.
>My vertical isn't the quietest of antennas (they never are) and my
>neighborhood has a fair amount of QRM on 40m during "real people hours".
>
>For example, this morning I was trying to get KH2/JR4GPA. Copying his
>sign was very tough, but I finally got it and confirmed it. I called
>a couple of times but realized that I wouldn't recognize my call even
>if he returned it! Just on the egde of ESP.
>
>So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
>doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors provide.
>
>Thanks!
>
>73 de chris K6DBG
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
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Vic K2VCO

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
> Does this combination make sense? I operate 100% CW. These days, I seem
> to be chasing a lot of very weak signals with questionable readability.
> My vertical isn't the quietest of antennas (they never are) and my
> neighborhood has a fair amount of QRM on 40m during "real people hours".
>
> So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
> doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors provide.

You will get some different answers on this!

DSP or an analog AF can be used to reduce the bandwidth, which increases
the s/n ratio. This can help with weak signals. On the other hand, a
very narrow bandwidth causes the phenomenon that the 'pitch' of the
noise is the same as that of the signal, so your built-in brain filter
won't be able to pick it out. Some guys say they do better with wider
bandwidths on very weak signals for this reason. For me, sometimes it's
better one way, sometimes the other.

As far as DSP noise reduction, it seems to me that it makes copy of
signals more comfortable in the presence of noise, but I don't think it
helps when the signal is super weak -- that is, there isn't a case when
I can say that NR made it possible to copy a signal that I couldn't have
copied without it.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Tom Zeltwanger

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Stephen W. Kercel

Interesting discussion as I am just getting ready to build the DSP unit. Can
you still use the "plain" audio CW filters once you install the DSP? This DSP
is extremely flexible and I can't image that each person couldn't get some
settings that will be useful to them, although it may take some time.

73,

TOm KG3V

Quoting "Stephen W. Kercel" <[hidden email]>:

> Chris:
>
> As you can see from other posts, opinions about the DSP module vary.
> I have it and am very happy with it. I find the DSP narrow-band
> filtering to be superior to an outboard QF-1 analog filter, and very
> effective in enhancing the K2's crystal IF filtering. Set to the
> "most aggressive" position, the DSP denoiser distorts the signal
> quite noticeably, but more importantly, it enables me to copy signals
> that I could not copy otherwise. (The distortion is not much of a
> problem on CW, but I do not know how much it disrupts voice signals.)
>
> There is one claim that I thought was an exaggeration, until I heard
> for myself. With the denoiser on and set very aggressive, the audio
> output in the absence of a signal is so quiet that you'll think that
> the radio is off. This in no exaggeration. On a quiet band with the
> denoiser on, I find myself occasionally toggling it off just to
> verify that the radio is working OK.
>
> I most highly recommend the DSP module.
>
> On the other hand, I have never found the noise blanker to be
> effective against the kind of noise present in my setting. Again, the
> experience of different users varies according to their circumstances.
>
> 73,
>
> Steve Kercel
> AA4AK
>
>
>
>
> At 10:24 AM 3/29/2007, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
> >Does this combination make sense? I operate 100% CW. These days, I seem
> >to be chasing a lot of very weak signals with questionable readability.
> >My vertical isn't the quietest of antennas (they never are) and my
> >neighborhood has a fair amount of QRM on 40m during "real people hours".
> >
> >For example, this morning I was trying to get KH2/JR4GPA. Copying his
> >sign was very tough, but I finally got it and confirmed it. I called
> >a couple of times but realized that I wouldn't recognize my call even
> >if he returned it! Just on the egde of ESP.
> >
> >So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
> >doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors provide.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >73 de chris K6DBG
> >_______________________________________________
> >Elecraft mailing list
> >Post to: [hidden email]
> >You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
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Bob Nielsen

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris,

I have found the KDSP2 to be excellent for reduction of atmospheric
and many other noises, especially when operating CW, and I generally
operate my K2 with the DSP NR turned on. The KNB2 does a very good
job on some types of impulse noise but is not effective on others.
If you operate in a noisy environment, I recommend having both
available.

73 - Bob, N7XY

On Mar 29, 2007, at 7:24 AM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:

> Does this combination make sense? I operate 100% CW. These days, I
> seem
> to be chasing a lot of very weak signals with questionable
> readability.
> My vertical isn't the quietest of antennas (they never are) and my
> neighborhood has a fair amount of QRM on 40m during "real people
> hours".
>
> For example, this morning I was trying to get KH2/JR4GPA. Copying his
> sign was very tough, but I finally got it and confirmed it. I called
> a couple of times but realized that I wouldn't recognize my call even
> if he returned it! Just on the egde of ESP.
>
> So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
> doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors
> provide.
>
> Thanks!
>
> 73 de chris K6DBG
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

> > So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
> > doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors provide.
>
> You will get some different answers on this!

That's why I asked :-)

My narrowest crystal filter is "0.20" and is plenty narrow for
isolating signals from noise. As you say, the pitch sometimes gets a
little confused, and the signal reduced, so I don't find it useful
for really weak signals. I'm not really interested in reducing
the bandwidth further.

In this particular case, the noise level was low enough that I had
no activity on my S meter ... from the station or the noise :-)
What I'm trying to discern is if the DSP will help cut some of
the broad spectrum QRN/QRM that I hear around here.

(I'm also happy to hear from KAF2 fans, especially since it's cheaper!)

I admit that I forgot to try a wider filter (I was using 0.40) to
see if I could hear Guam more clearly. I know that trick and sometimes
it works for me.

Later, when people woke up, I was getting S3 QRM and there was no
hope of hearing really weak signals. That's an entirely different thing!

73,
chris
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Tom Hammond-3

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Stephen W. Kercel

Fellas:

Stephen W. Kercel wrote:

>There is one claim that I thought was an exaggeration, until I heard
>for myself. With the denoiser on and set very aggressive, the audio
>output in the absence of a signal is so quiet that you'll think that
>the radio is off. This in no exaggeration. On a quiet band with the
>denoiser on, I find myself occasionally toggling it off just to
>verify that the radio is working OK.

Like Steve, I've found the Noise Reduction to make received signals
'watery', BUT when I use it (and I ONLY use it mobile) it is
absolutely WONDERFUL for nearly making it as though there was a CW
SQUELCH feature in the K2. Virtually all(!) background noises
disappear and I only hear something when there's an in-band signal
present. Sometimes I leave the DSP NR enables throughout the QSO,
other times I don't. It depends upon what I'm listening for at the
time, but the NR DOES WORK.

>On the other hand, I have never found the noise blanker to be
>effective against the kind of noise present in my setting. Again,
>the experience of different users varies according to their circumstances.

I've had GREAT experiences with the NB, and then some less than great
as well. MOST(!) times it'll do a very fine job of blanking spikey
interference, but then there are times when it's as though I never
turned it on.

Would I buy either again...yup... BOTH! Though, if you don't need
the NR feature of the DSP, the KAF2 is a nice, lower cost alternative
for CW reception. I don't operate fone, so I can't comment upon how
the DSP works on SSB.

73,

Tom Hammond N0SS

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Tom Hammond-3

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Tom Zeltwanger

Tom:

>Can you still use the "plain" audio CW filters once you install the
>DSP? This DSP is extremely flexible and I can't image that each
>person couldn't get some
>settings that will be useful to them, although it may take some time.

You can have only one (1) audio filter installed at a time, KAF2 or
KDSP2, but not both, sorry.

73,

Tom N0SS

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Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris, I'm a 99.9% CW op, too, and find myself working weak signal
stuff mostly, and mostly on 40M. I find the KDSP2 an invaluable tool.
I also have the KNB2, and it's effective on some noise, but I rarely
use it.

You have to hear the difference between a very weak signal on and off
the DSP. It's amazing. Without it, you can just barely tell there's
someone in the noise. With the DSP activated, that signal often
becomes completely copyable. Sounds like an exaggeration but it's not.

I'm sure there's probably a K2/DSP combo nearer to you than I (I'm in
Santa Cruz) but if you ever want to hear the difference, feel free to
stop by and we can pull some weak signals out so you can hear the
difference.

True, there is a "processed" sound to the signals when you get
aggressive with the DSP, but I'll take that any day over not being
able to copy the signal at all.

And I find that the stock crystal filters + the DSP make a great combination.

73,

Jeff N6GQ

On 3/29/07, Chris Kantarjiev <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Does this combination make sense? I operate 100% CW. These days, I seem
> to be chasing a lot of very weak signals with questionable readability.
> My vertical isn't the quietest of antennas (they never are) and my
> neighborhood has a fair amount of QRM on 40m during "real people hours".
>
> For example, this morning I was trying to get KH2/JR4GPA. Copying his
> sign was very tough, but I finally got it and confirmed it. I called
> a couple of times but realized that I wouldn't recognize my call even
> if he returned it! Just on the egde of ESP.
>
> So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
> doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors provide.
>
> Thanks!
>
> 73 de chris K6DBG
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

n6wg

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris
There are two actions I would recommend.
First is a rotatable receiving loop to help reduce
local noise. The best way to reduce noise is to
prevent it from entering the receiver. It can be
tuned or untuned. If tuned, it will be more
sensitive, but limited to one band. If untuned,
it will be a bit less sensitive, but you could also
use it on 80m.
Second is adding the KDSP2. It will lower your
apparent noise by two means. The first is the
narrower audio filtering which lets less noise
pass. The second is the DSP noise reduction
algorithm which will improve your signal to noise
ratio in recovered audio.
Use both of these together, and you should see
a distinct improvement in what you can hear.
Good luck and 73
Bob N6WG

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Kantarjiev" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 6:24 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] DSP and CW?

> Does this combination make sense? I operate 100% CW. These days, I seem
> to be chasing a lot of very weak signals with questionable readability.
> My vertical isn't the quietest of antennas (they never are) and my
> neighborhood has a fair amount of QRM on 40m during "real people hours".
>
> For example, this morning I was trying to get KH2/JR4GPA. Copying his
> sign was very tough, but I finally got it and confirmed it. I called
> a couple of times but realized that I wouldn't recognize my call even
> if he returned it! Just on the egde of ESP.
>
> So ... would AF or DSP help me in this situation? The noise blanker
> doesn't seem to do much good for the noise sources my neighbors provide.
>
> Thanks!
>
> 73 de chris K6DBG
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Don Wilhelm-3

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris,

For reasons of providing a sharper audio filter, I believe it is a
toss-up between the KAF2 and the KDSP2 - both will do the job. The DSP
offers more flexibility in the filter width and can create a really
steep sided filter. As far as noise reduction, the KDSP2 wins hands
down, the KAF2 has none, and yes, the KNB2 does not work on atmospheric
noise - it does a good job on impulse type noise sources, like gasoline
engine ignition noise.

That said, my ears tire of hearing the DSP after long periods. Maybe it
is just too clean, or perhaps my ears like the more rounded filter
shapes, but that is my personal subjective assessment. I have an
external DSP in my AMQRP micro908 that I can press into service when the
occasion arises, and I have my K2 fitted with the KAF2. In fact, I
rarely use the KAF2 because the K2 IF filters are good enough most of
the time.

As it has been mentioned, perhaps the best solution to your noise
situation is to use a separate receiving antenna such as a rotating loop
(assuming something like a beverage is not feasible).

73,
Don W3FPR

Chris Kantarjiev wrote:

Stephen W. Kercel

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Tom Zeltwanger

Tom:

If you if you can toggle off all DSP processing entirely, the answer
is yes. What you cannot do is install both analog and digital audio
filtering in the same K2.

73,

Steve Kercel
AA4AK

At 11:21 AM 3/29/2007, Tom Zeltwanger wrote:
>Interesting discussion as I am just getting ready to build the DSP unit. Can
>you still use the "plain" audio CW filters once you install the DSP? This DSP
>is extremely flexible and I can't image that each person couldn't get some
>settings that will be useful to them, although it may take some time.
>
>73,
>
>TOm KG3V
>

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Darwin, Keith

RE: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Jeff, do you hear that difference only in wide IF positions or does the
DSP provide the same benefit when you stop down the IF to 400 Hz? And
does the effectiveness depend on the type of noise?

- Keith N1AS -
- K2 5411.ssb.100 -

-----Original Message-----
You have to hear the difference between a very weak signal on and off
the DSP. It's amazing. Without it, you can just barely tell there's
someone in the noise. With the DSP activated, that signal often becomes
completely copyable. Sounds like an exaggeration but it's not.

Jeff N6GQ
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n6wg

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Tom Hammond-3

One additional thought.
It is not unusual to use an external AF filter with
headphones. I have a homebrew passive filter
that I put in line occasionally. It is not needed
so much for additional selectivity as to reduce
higher pitched white noise that comes through
along with signal.
You can buy these filters or just cobble your own
out of junkbox parts.
73, Bob N6WG

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hammond" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tom Zeltwanger" <[hidden email]>; "Stephen W. Kercel"
<[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] DSP and CW?

> Tom:
>
> >Can you still use the "plain" audio CW filters once you install the
> >DSP? This DSP is extremely flexible and I can't image that each
> >person couldn't get some
> >settings that will be useful to them, although it may take some time.
>
> You can have only one (1) audio filter installed at a time, KAF2 or
> KDSP2, but not both, sorry.
>
> 73,
>
> Tom N0SS
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

> As it has been mentioned, perhaps the best solution to your noise
> situation is to use a separate receiving antenna such as a rotating loop
> (assuming something like a beverage is not feasible).

Yes, but. I have a vertical because I am antenna limited on my sub-1/8 acre
suburban Palo Alto lot :-) No room for a beverage, and I think I'd
be lynched if I tried to put up a rotatable loop!

Everything's a compromise...

73,
chris
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Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Keith, the improvement is there across the board, and I find that
depending on conditions, sometimes wider is good, sometimes not.

I find myself often switching between crystal and DSP filter settings
to find the sweet spot, and often there really is a very definate
sweet spot for a given signal and noise complement.

Jeff N6GQ

On 3/29/07, Darwin, Keith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jeff, do you hear that difference only in wide IF positions or does the
> DSP provide the same benefit when you stop down the IF to 400 Hz? And
> does the effectiveness depend on the type of noise?
>
> - Keith N1AS -
> - K2 5411.ssb.100 -
>
> -----Original Message-----
> You have to hear the difference between a very weak signal on and off
> the DSP. It's amazing. Without it, you can just barely tell there's
> someone in the noise. With the DSP activated, that signal often becomes
> completely copyable. Sounds like an exaggeration but it's not.
>
> Jeff N6GQ
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n6wg

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris
For 40m, a rotatable loop could be as simple as a diamond shape
with maybe 3 ft sides. All loops are not made out of rigid coax
in a 10 ft diameter circle. Also, multi-turn looops allow for a smaller
size while still giving good performance. A 3 ft loop wouldn't be very
large, and ,standing vertically, might still be below the sight line of a
fence between you and your neighbors.
Loops don't have to be high in the air to work.
There is a ton of material on receiving loops on the web. Look
around a bit and find one that seems to fit your situation. It's a
ridiculously cheap experiment. Give it a try and let us know
how it works for you.
Good luck and 73
Bob N6WG

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Kantarjiev" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] DSP and CW?

> > As it has been mentioned, perhaps the best solution to your noise
> > situation is to use a separate receiving antenna such as a rotating loop
> > (assuming something like a beverage is not feasible).
>
> Yes, but. I have a vertical because I am antenna limited on my sub-1/8
acre

> suburban Palo Alto lot :-) No room for a beverage, and I think I'd
> be lynched if I tried to put up a rotatable loop!
>
> Everything's a compromise...
>
> 73,
> chris
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Stephen W. Kercel

Re: DSP and CW?

In reply to this post by Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG

Chris:

For receive-only, even an indoor rotatable loop can work wonders.

73,

Steve
AA4AK

At 01:54 PM 3/29/2007, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:

> > As it has been mentioned, perhaps the best solution to your noise
> > situation is to use a separate receiving antenna such as a rotating loop
> > (assuming something like a beverage is not feasible).
>
>Yes, but. I have a vertical because I am antenna limited on my sub-1/8 acre
>suburban Palo Alto lot :-) No room for a beverage, and I think I'd
>be lynched if I tried to put up a rotatable loop!
>
>Everything's a compromise...
>
>73,
>chris
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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