Elecraft

Data mode and filters

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Jim Wilson

Data mode and filters

I have to agree with Joe, K4TV in that use of super wide
audio and over-driven amplifiers are in poor taste. Look at
your P3, Some have considerable "other" sideband and
run 10 to 12 KHz wide on congested bands.

73,

Jim W4RKS.
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Jim Bolit

Re: Data mode and filters

I also agree with K4TV.

I did a little experiment concerning the "poor" signals that I have heard on
the bands. I only looked at CW as that is my mode of choice.

When I "saw" a poor signal, I looked them up on QRZ.com and advised them via
e-mail, of their signal quality, and attached the two articles authored by
K6XX and K9YC that show the various
popular radios currently on the market and their corresponding transmitted
spectrum. I also took a "snapshot" of the P3 display, showing their signal
which then could be to the others on the pan-adaptor.

My efforts to accomplish this took place during the CWT tests. This mini
contest lent itself to showing a significant number of different signals at
the same time.

I sent emails to nine different people this week.

Three (3) people did not responsed to my email
Three (3) people came back to me stating they did not care at all about
their transmitted sitnal
Two (2) people were concerned/interested about their signal and was going to
further research the matter for the model number radio they had.
One (1)person was going to send his radio back to the mfg'er for an
update/mod and to change the mfg'er out out of box setting to 10
milliseconds.

Difficult to draw any conclusions from this small sample size, but people
with a wider xmit signal do have more **elnoww room**

Jim
W6AIM

.
-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James
Wilson
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 7:56 AM
To: Elecraft
Subject: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

I have to agree with Joe, K4TV in that use of super wide audio and
over-driven amplifiers are in poor taste. Look at your P3, Some have
considerable "other" sideband and run 10 to 12 KHz wide on congested bands.

73,

Jim W4RKS.
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James Bennett

Re: Data mode and filters

Hi Jim - not necessarily difficult to draw ANY conclusions - one conclusion I see is that there are at least three people who need to have their license revoked. :-)

Jim / W6JHB

> On Friday, May 8, 2015, at Friday, 3:09 PM, jim <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I also agree with K4TV.
>
> I did a little experiment concerning the "poor" signals that I have heard on
> the bands. I only looked at CW as that is my mode of choice.
>
> When I "saw" a poor signal, I looked them up on QRZ.com and advised them via
> e-mail, of their signal quality, and attached the two articles authored by
> K6XX and K9YC that show the various
> popular radios currently on the market and their corresponding transmitted
> spectrum. I also took a "snapshot" of the P3 display, showing their signal
> which then could be to the others on the pan-adaptor.
>
> My efforts to accomplish this took place during the CWT tests. This mini
> contest lent itself to showing a significant number of different signals at
> the same time.
>
> I sent emails to nine different people this week.
>
> Three (3) people did not responsed to my email
> Three (3) people came back to me stating they did not care at all about
> their transmitted sitnal
> Two (2) people were concerned/interested about their signal and was going to
> further research the matter for the model number radio they had.
> One (1)person was going to send his radio back to the mfg'er for an
> update/mod and to change the mfg'er out out of box setting to 10
> milliseconds.
>
> Difficult to draw any conclusions from this small sample size, but people
> with a wider xmit signal do have more **elnoww room**
>
> Jim
> W6AIM

Johnny Siu

Data mode and filters

Hello Jim,
I concur with you. I would think they deliberately do that to kick away others especially during contest.
In the voice mode, I heard quite a number of stations put their speech compression all the way up.
73
Johnny VR2XMC
寄件人︰ James Bennett <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ Elecraft Reflector Reflector <[hidden email]>
傳送日期︰ 2015年05月9日 (週六) 6:21 AM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

Hi Jim - not necessarily difficult to draw ANY conclusions - one conclusion I see is that there are at least three people who need to have their license revoked. :-)

Jim / W6JHB

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Mike Harris-9

Re: Data mode and filters

But could you understand them? Not uncommon to hear transmissions with
guys CQing away and no-one answering them because either their DVK
recording is so bad or the compression is so high you can hear their dog
barking, pots clattering, the kids crying, TV and a roar from the amp
blower and PC fans. A constant S9 with only a little increase when they
talk.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 08/05/2015 19:54, Johnny Siu wrote:
> Hello Jim,
> I concur with you. I would think they deliberately do that to kick away others especially during contest.
> In the voice mode, I heard quite a number of stations put their speech compression all the way up.
> 73
> Johnny VR2XMC
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Data mode and filters

I agree, there are some "contesters" who are nothing but noise on the
band. It is unfortunate that some (many) who do not care to provide a
clean signal.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/8/2015 7:12 PM, Mike Harris wrote:

> But could you understand them? Not uncommon to hear transmissions
> with guys CQing away and no-one answering them because either their
> DVK recording is so bad or the compression is so high you can hear
> their dog barking, pots clattering, the kids crying, TV and a roar
> from the amp blower and PC fans. A constant S9 with only a little
> increase when they talk.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike VP8NO
>
>
>
> On 08/05/2015 19:54, Johnny Siu wrote:
>> Hello Jim,
>> I concur with you. I would think they deliberately do that to kick
>> away others especially during contest.
>> In the voice mode, I heard quite a number of stations put their
>> speech compression all the way up.
>> 73

Karl Erb

Re: Data mode and filters

In reply to this post by Jim Bolit

>
>
> I sent emails to nine different people this week.
>
> Three (3) people did not responsed to my email
> Three (3) people came back to me stating they did not care at all about
> their transmitted signal
>
>
> Difficult to draw any conclusions from this small sample size, but people
> with a wider xmit signal do have more **elnoww room**
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
>
> .
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James
> Wilson
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 7:56 AM
> To: Elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters
>
> I have to agree with Joe, K4TV in that use of super wide audio and
> over-driven amplifiers are in poor taste. Look at your P3, Some have
> considerable "other" sideband and run 10 to 12 KHz wide on congested bands.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim W4RKS.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: Data mode and filters

In reply to this post by Jim Bolit

Hi Jim,

Honestly, my first question to you would be how is YOUR radio setup, and
how strong was my signal at your location? Are you overloading? Were
you running with the Attenuator on, did you have AGC on, etc.

I have heard many, many people accuse another ham of being broad, when
they were just strong, not wide.

When I send out a report to another ham, about wide signals, I include a
snap shot from the P3, with a good signal at the same strength as the
offending signal. That way the person knows that his/her signal is
different from a signal that is the same strength, on the same screen,
at the same time.

That sort of ends all questions along the lines of the one above I
listed.

I am a bit surprised some folks actually responded that they did not
care... Ham radio has changed a lot over the past 40 years...

--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 15:09 -0700, jim wrote:

> I also agree with K4TV.
>
> I did a little experiment concerning the "poor" signals that I have heard on
> the bands. I only looked at CW as that is my mode of choice.
>
> When I "saw" a poor signal, I looked them up on QRZ.com and advised them via
> e-mail, of their signal quality, and attached the two articles authored by
> K6XX and K9YC that show the various
> popular radios currently on the market and their corresponding transmitted
> spectrum. I also took a "snapshot" of the P3 display, showing their signal
> which then could be to the others on the pan-adaptor.
>
> My efforts to accomplish this took place during the CWT tests. This mini
> contest lent itself to showing a significant number of different signals at
> the same time.
>
> I sent emails to nine different people this week.
>
> Three (3) people did not responsed to my email
> Three (3) people came back to me stating they did not care at all about
> their transmitted sitnal
> Two (2) people were concerned/interested about their signal and was going to
> further research the matter for the model number radio they had.
> One (1)person was going to send his radio back to the mfg'er for an
> update/mod and to change the mfg'er out out of box setting to 10
> milliseconds.
>
> Difficult to draw any conclusions from this small sample size, but people
> with a wider xmit signal do have more **elnoww room**
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
>
> .
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James
> Wilson
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 7:56 AM
> To: Elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters
>
> I have to agree with Joe, K4TV in that use of super wide audio and
> over-driven amplifiers are in poor taste. Look at your P3, Some have
> considerable "other" sideband and run 10 to 12 KHz wide on congested bands.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim W4RKS.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Bolit

Re: Data mode and filters

.

My "testing" was using CW mode only.

I do include a snapshot from the P3 pan-adapter when I send the person a
mail.

In all cases, the screenshot had signals that are stronger than the one I
question and did not show phase and Key Klick issues. This is EXTREMELY
easy to find and point out with stations that run the CWT during the week.
There you can find a good number of signals that are over 1.4 kHz in width
and the jitter on the sidebands jumps out at you.

The strength of the signals are no greater than -65 dBm on the pan adapter.

What is interesting is that the stations in question had a Yaesu or Icom
listed or shown on their QRZ page.

Take a look at the upcoming CWT test this week. The contest runs from 19:00
to 20;00 Zulu on May 13 and 03:00 to 04:00 Zulu on May 14. You will see the
stations I am talking about, clear as day on your P3.

The CW part of Sweepstakes is also unreal. There are stations that
deliberately run the rise times at < 5 mSec to make sure they have elbow
room. People have used old Drake transmitters with modified waveform
shaping values (easy to find and change values) to make sure they are wide
(Key Klicks), and then use a K3 as their receiver.

BTW, David, I have not heard you on CW, and have no idea of your signal
quality.

Jim
W6AIM

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David
Cole
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 7:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

Hi Jim,

Honestly, my first question to you would be how is YOUR radio setup, and how
strong was my signal at your location? Are you overloading? Were you
running with the Attenuator on, did you have AGC on, etc.

I have heard many, many people accuse another ham of being broad, when they
were just strong, not wide.

When I send out a report to another ham, about wide signals, I include a
snap shot from the P3, with a good signal at the same strength as the
offending signal. That way the person knows that his/her signal is
different from a signal that is the same strength, on the same screen, at
the same time.

That sort of ends all questions along the lines of the one above I listed.

I am a bit surprised some folks actually responded that they did not care...
Ham radio has changed a lot over the past 40 years...

--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 15:09 -0700, jim wrote:
> I also agree with K4TV.
>
> I did a little experiment concerning the "poor" signals that I have heard
on
> the bands. I only looked at CW as that is my mode of choice.
>
> When I "saw" a poor signal, I looked them up on QRZ.com and advised them
via
> e-mail, of their signal quality, and attached the two articles authored by
> K6XX and K9YC that show the various
> popular radios currently on the market and their corresponding transmitted
> spectrum. I also took a "snapshot" of the P3 display, showing their
signal
> which then could be to the others on the pan-adaptor.
>
> My efforts to accomplish this took place during the CWT tests. This mini
> contest lent itself to showing a significant number of different signals
at
> the same time.
>
> I sent emails to nine different people this week.
>
> Three (3) people did not responsed to my email
> Three (3) people came back to me stating they did not care at all about
> their transmitted sitnal
> Two (2) people were concerned/interested about their signal and was going
to

> further research the matter for the model number radio they had.
> One (1)person was going to send his radio back to the mfg'er for an
> update/mod and to change the mfg'er out out of box setting to 10
> milliseconds.
>
> Difficult to draw any conclusions from this small sample size, but people
> with a wider xmit signal do have more **elnoww room**
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
>
> .
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of

James
> Wilson
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 7:56 AM
> To: Elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters
>
> I have to agree with Joe, K4TV in that use of super wide audio and
> over-driven amplifiers are in poor taste. Look at your P3, Some have
> considerable "other" sideband and run 10 to 12 KHz wide on congested
bands.

>
> 73,
>
> Jim W4RKS.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Message

> delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: Data mode and filters

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the expansion here. If you do see me on CW sometime, please
do shoot me a report! It is difficult of late to get reports from
people that actually know what they are doing when they report things.
I tend to only work DX, which is probably why we have not worked CW yet.

I contest, but never even thought of intentionally widening my signal to
keep others out... Sigh... As I said, ham radio is not like it used to
be...
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 23:23 -0700, jim wrote:

> .
>
> My "testing" was using CW mode only.
>
> I do include a snapshot from the P3 pan-adapter when I send the person a
> mail.
>
> In all cases, the screenshot had signals that are stronger than the one I
> question and did not show phase and Key Klick issues. This is EXTREMELY
> easy to find and point out with stations that run the CWT during the week.
> There you can find a good number of signals that are over 1.4 kHz in width
> and the jitter on the sidebands jumps out at you.
>
> The strength of the signals are no greater than -65 dBm on the pan adapter.
>
> What is interesting is that the stations in question had a Yaesu or Icom
> listed or shown on their QRZ page.
>
> Take a look at the upcoming CWT test this week. The contest runs from 19:00
> to 20;00 Zulu on May 13 and 03:00 to 04:00 Zulu on May 14. You will see the
> stations I am talking about, clear as day on your P3.
>
> The CW part of Sweepstakes is also unreal. There are stations that
> deliberately run the rise times at < 5 mSec to make sure they have elbow
> room. People have used old Drake transmitters with modified waveform
> shaping values (easy to find and change values) to make sure they are wide
> (Key Klicks), and then use a K3 as their receiver.
>
> BTW, David, I have not heard you on CW, and have no idea of your signal
> quality.
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David
> Cole
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 7:13 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Honestly, my first question to you would be how is YOUR radio setup, and how
> strong was my signal at your location? Are you overloading? Were you
> running with the Attenuator on, did you have AGC on, etc.
>
> I have heard many, many people accuse another ham of being broad, when they
> were just strong, not wide.
>
> When I send out a report to another ham, about wide signals, I include a
> snap shot from the P3, with a good signal at the same strength as the
> offending signal. That way the person knows that his/her signal is
> different from a signal that is the same strength, on the same screen, at
> the same time.
>
> That sort of ends all questions along the lines of the one above I listed.
>
> I am a bit surprised some folks actually responded that they did not care...
> Ham radio has changed a lot over the past 40 years...
>
> --
> Thanks and 73's,
> For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
> www.nk7z.net
> for MixW support see;
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
> for Dopplergram information see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
> for MM-SSTV see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
>
>
> On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 15:09 -0700, jim wrote:
> > I also agree with K4TV.
> >
> > I did a little experiment concerning the "poor" signals that I have heard
> on
> > the bands. I only looked at CW as that is my mode of choice.
> >
> > When I "saw" a poor signal, I looked them up on QRZ.com and advised them
> via
> > e-mail, of their signal quality, and attached the two articles authored by
> > K6XX and K9YC that show the various
> > popular radios currently on the market and their corresponding transmitted
> > spectrum. I also took a "snapshot" of the P3 display, showing their
> signal
> > which then could be to the others on the pan-adaptor.
> >
> > My efforts to accomplish this took place during the CWT tests. This mini
> > contest lent itself to showing a significant number of different signals
> at
> > the same time.
> >
> > I sent emails to nine different people this week.
> >
> > Three (3) people did not responsed to my email
> > Three (3) people came back to me stating they did not care at all about
> > their transmitted sitnal
> > Two (2) people were concerned/interested about their signal and was going
> to
> > further research the matter for the model number radio they had.
> > One (1)person was going to send his radio back to the mfg'er for an
> > update/mod and to change the mfg'er out out of box setting to 10
> > milliseconds.
> >
> > Difficult to draw any conclusions from this small sample size, but people
> > with a wider xmit signal do have more **elnoww room**
> >
> > Jim
> > W6AIM
> >
> >
> > .
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> James
> > Wilson
> > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 7:56 AM
> > To: Elecraft
> > Subject: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters
> >
> > I have to agree with Joe, K4TV in that use of super wide audio and
> > over-driven amplifiers are in poor taste. Look at your P3, Some have
> > considerable "other" sideband and run 10 to 12 KHz wide on congested
> bands.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Jim W4RKS.
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message
> > delivered to [hidden email]
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Data mode and filters

In reply to this post by NK7Z

I have seen that as well (people telling others they are wide etc when they are not.
I was one night listening to some guys on ESSB with great sounding signals and watching them on the P3, but another station comes up tight to them and start complaining they were wiping them out etc. I dialed down on to the complainers freq and I could not hear the ESSB guys at all.

As for people responding "They don't care" some of that comes from far too many trying to assert some imaginary authority over another. (like the guy who drives at or below the speed limit in the passing lane). In time they just stop caring because so many times the person accusing them of being wide etc is either a busybody or does not have their own gear set up right. Sadly that in and of itself becomes a problem because now those folks (who may actually have a poor signal) become closed to true constructive criticism and they go on with a poor signal.

From: David Cole <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

Hi Jim,

Honestly, my first question to you would be how is YOUR radio setup, and
how strong was my signal at your location? Are you overloading? Were
you running with the Attenuator on, did you have AGC on, etc.

I have heard many, many people accuse another ham of being broad, when
they were just strong, not wide.

When I send out a report to another ham, about wide signals, I include a
snap shot from the P3, with a good signal at the same strength as the
offending signal. That way the person knows that his/her signal is
different from a signal that is the same strength, on the same screen,
at the same time.

That sort of ends all questions along the lines of the one above I
listed.

I am a bit surprised some folks actually responded that they did not
care... Ham radio has changed a lot over the past 40 years...

--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 15:09 -0700, jim wrote:

Kevin Stover

Re: Data mode and filters

On Sat, 9 May 2015 14:14:41 +0000 (UTC)
Harry Yingst via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As for people responding "They don't care" some of that >comes from far too many trying to assert some imaginary >authority over another. (like the guy who drives at or >below the speed limit in the passing lane).

Hasn't the FCC said we are to police ourselves?

>In time they just stop caring because so many times the >person accusing them of being wide etc is either a >busybody or >does not have their own gear set up right. >Sadly that in and of itself becomes a problem because >now those folks (who may actually have a poor signal) >become closed to true constructive criticism and they go >on with a poor signal.

So, because they've stopped caring were just supposed to sit on our hands or go our merry way by spinning the knob?

I know a particular federal agency who will make them care again. Unfortunatley we have to do most of the evidence gathering and file an actual complaint.

The three guys/gals who actually responded saying they don't care would have been first on the list. These are the people who need "self policed" the worst.

You wouldn't stand for that arrogant attitude from a guest in your home, I hope, why put up with it on the radio?

Any "big gun" contester whose already spent $$$ and has a crap signal comes next. They have the technical chops and resources to fix the problem. If one or more of them are wide to create some kind of guard channel then the contest sponsors and the FCC need to get involved. A nice five year banning from a contest would get their attention.

Any ESSBer whose signal is wider than 3.0 KHz is next. Wanna sound like an AM broadcast legen? USE AM in the correct part of the band. You'll be welcomed with open arms.

We need to demand more from the manufacturers too. Transmit IMD numbers worse than -35 dB shouldn't be tollerated. I'll bet none os the 12V final rigs, including the K3, could hit that mark. I've sworn off ANY and ALL Yaesu HF rigs FOREVER because of the FT-1000D/MP/Mk5 key click fiasco. When an entire line of your product earns the moniker "cliclmaster" you shouldn't be allowed to ignore it for 10 years like Yaesu did.

The more we've ignored it or say "I don't want to get involved", the worse the problem gets.

Someone else can use the soapbox now.

--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
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NK7Z

Re: Data mode and filters

Become an OO
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sat, 2015-05-09 at 12:34 -0500, Kevin Stover wrote:

> On Sat, 9 May 2015 14:14:41 +0000 (UTC)
> Harry Yingst via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > As for people responding "They don't care" some of that >comes from far too many trying to assert some imaginary >authority over another. (like the guy who drives at or >below the speed limit in the passing lane).
>
> Hasn't the FCC said we are to police ourselves?
>
> >In time they just stop caring because so many times the >person accusing them of being wide etc is either a >busybody or >does not have their own gear set up right. >Sadly that in and of itself becomes a problem because >now those folks (who may actually have a poor signal) >become closed to true constructive criticism and they go >on with a poor signal.
>
> So, because they've stopped caring were just supposed to sit on our hands or go our merry way by spinning the knob?
>
> I know a particular federal agency who will make them care again. Unfortunatley we have to do most of the evidence gathering and file an actual complaint.
>
> The three guys/gals who actually responded saying they don't care would have been first on the list. These are the people who need "self policed" the worst.
>
> You wouldn't stand for that arrogant attitude from a guest in your home, I hope, why put up with it on the radio?
>
> Any "big gun" contester whose already spent $$$ and has a crap signal comes next. They have the technical chops and resources to fix the problem. If one or more of them are wide to create some kind of guard channel then the contest sponsors and the FCC need to get involved. A nice five year banning from a contest would get their attention.
>
> Any ESSBer whose signal is wider than 3.0 KHz is next. Wanna sound like an AM broadcast legen? USE AM in the correct part of the band. You'll be welcomed with open arms.
>
> We need to demand more from the manufacturers too. Transmit IMD numbers worse than -35 dB shouldn't be tollerated. I'll bet none os the 12V final rigs, including the K3, could hit that mark. I've sworn off ANY and ALL Yaesu HF rigs FOREVER because of the FT-1000D/MP/Mk5 key click fiasco. When an entire line of your product earns the moniker "cliclmaster" you shouldn't be allowed to ignore it for 10 years like Yaesu did.
>
> The more we've ignored it or say "I don't want to get involved", the worse the problem gets.
>
> Someone else can use the soapbox now.
>

Phil Anderson

Re: Data mode and filters

In reply to this post by Kevin Stover

This thread sounds - in part - a bit like junior high batches of
mentality. I'm not sure that this discussion line is appropriate for the
Elecraft reflector.

Perhaps a better long term approach to more good signals on the air is
to recruit a few knowledgeable engineers or advanced hams (tech wise)
that could provide the theory, tutorials on how to set up and
measure/test quality signals. Quality for some may stay in the eye of
the beholder for some anyway.

These high quality tutorials/pieces of info, on a web page or as pdf
files, could be made available for individuals, clubs and perhaps also
find their way into the magazines and other publications.

I've not studied the subject in detail but would be interested in
learning/applying best signals methods.

73, Uncle Phil, W0XI, Lawrence, KS.

PS: I love my K3, P3 and SteppIR vertical. Fun stuff. Bought the K3 kit
in Nov of 2014. Still learning! Perhaps a book like Cady's centered on
good signals would be helpful to those who wish to advance the hobby in
general.

> Kevin Stover <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Saturday, May 09, 2015 12:34 PM
> On Sat, 9 May 2015 14:14:41 +0000 (UTC)
> Harry Yingst via Elecraft<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> As for people responding "They don't care" some of that>comes from far too many trying to assert some imaginary>authority over another. (like the guy who drives at or>below the speed limit in the passing lane).
>
> Hasn't the FCC said we are to police ourselves?
>
>> In time they just stop caring because so many times the>person accusing them of being wide etc is either a>busybody or>does not have their own gear set up right.>Sadly that in and of itself becomes a problem because>now those folks (who may actually have a poor signal)>become closed to true constructive criticism and they go>on with a poor signal.
>
> So, because they've stopped caring were just supposed to sit on our hands or go our merry way by spinning the knob?
>
> I know a particular federal agency who will make them care again. Unfortunatley we have to do most of the evidence gathering and file an actual complaint.
>
> The three guys/gals who actually responded saying they don't care would have been first on the list. These are the people who need "self policed" the worst.
>
> You wouldn't stand for that arrogant attitude from a guest in your home, I hope, why put up with it on the radio?
>
> Any "big gun" contester whose already spent $$$ and has a crap signal comes next. They have the technical chops and resources to fix the problem. If one or more of them are wide to create some kind of guard channel then the contest sponsors and the FCC need to get involved. A nice five year banning from a contest would get their attention.
>
> Any ESSBer whose signal is wider than 3.0 KHz is next. Wanna sound like an AM broadcast legen? USE AM in the correct part of the band. You'll be welcomed with open arms.
>
> We need to demand more from the manufacturers too. Transmit IMD numbers worse than -35 dB shouldn't be tollerated. I'll bet none os the 12V final rigs, including the K3, could hit that mark. I've sworn off ANY and ALL Yaesu HF rigs FOREVER because of the FT-1000D/MP/Mk5 key click fiasco. When an entire line of your product earns the moniker "cliclmaster" you shouldn't be allowed to ignore it for 10 years like Yaesu did.
>
> The more we've ignored it or say "I don't want to get involved", the worse the problem gets.
>
> Someone else can use the soapbox now.
>
> Harry Yingst via Elecraft <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Saturday, May 09, 2015 9:14 AM
> I have seen that as well (people telling others they are wide etc when
> they are not.
> I was one night listening to some guys on ESSB with great sounding
> signals and watching them on the P3, but another station comes up
> tight to them and start complaining they were wiping them out etc. I
> dialed down on to the complainers freq and I could not hear the ESSB
> guys at all.
>
> As for people responding "They don't care" some of that comes from far
> too many trying to assert some imaginary authority over another. (like
> the guy who drives at or below the speed limit in the passing lane).
> In time they just stop caring because so many times the person
> accusing them of being wide etc is either a busybody or does not have
> their own gear set up right. Sadly that in and of itself becomes a
> problem because now those folks (who may actually have a poor signal)
> become closed to true constructive criticism and they go on with a
> poor signal.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: David Cole <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Honestly, my first question to you would be how is YOUR radio setup, and
> how strong was my signal at your location? Are you overloading? Were
> you running with the Attenuator on, did you have AGC on, etc.
>
> I have heard many, many people accuse another ham of being broad, when
> they were just strong, not wide.
>
> When I send out a report to another ham, about wide signals, I include a
> snap shot from the P3, with a good signal at the same strength as the
> offending signal. That way the person knows that his/her signal is
> different from a signal that is the same strength, on the same screen,
> at the same time.
>
> That sort of ends all questions along the lines of the one above I
> listed.
>
> I am a bit surprised some folks actually responded that they did not
> care... Ham radio has changed a lot over the past 40 years...
>
> David Cole <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Friday, May 08, 2015 9:13 PM
> Hi Jim,
>
> Honestly, my first question to you would be how is YOUR radio setup, and
> how strong was my signal at your location? Are you overloading? Were
> you running with the Attenuator on, did you have AGC on, etc.
>
> I have heard many, many people accuse another ham of being broad, when
> they were just strong, not wide.
>
> When I send out a report to another ham, about wide signals, I include a
> snap shot from the P3, with a good signal at the same strength as the
> offending signal. That way the person knows that his/her signal is
> different from a signal that is the same strength, on the same screen,
> at the same time.
>
> That sort of ends all questions along the lines of the one above I
> listed.
>
> I am a bit surprised some folks actually responded that they did not
> care... Ham radio has changed a lot over the past 40 years...
>

Gary Gregory-2

Re: Data mode and filters

My pet peeve is ops running outboard speech processing poorly setup.
I always wonder why "others" answer these stations CQ when at times the
audio is so bad it's painful and when ops point this out politley the
offending station reverts to abusive responses.

One of the reasons i have become a serial pest to Elecraft to release the
TX monitoring to ENSURE MY signal is not contributing to the QRM.

Back in my hole i go.....:-)
73

Gary
Vk1ZZ
K3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT
On 10/05/2015 5:49 AM, "Phil Anderson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This thread sounds - in part - a bit like junior high batches of
> mentality. I'm not sure that this discussion line is appropriate for the
> Elecraft reflector.
>
> Perhaps a better long term approach to more good signals on the air is to
> recruit a few knowledgeable engineers or advanced hams (tech wise) that
> could provide the theory, tutorials on how to set up and measure/test
> quality signals. Quality for some may stay in the eye of the beholder for
> some anyway.
>
> These high quality tutorials/pieces of info, on a web page or as pdf
> files, could be made available for individuals, clubs and perhaps also find
> their way into the magazines and other publications.
>
> I've not studied the subject in detail but would be interested in
> learning/applying best signals methods.
>
> 73, Uncle Phil, W0XI, Lawrence, KS.
>
> PS: I love my K3, P3 and SteppIR vertical. Fun stuff. Bought the K3 kit in
> Nov of 2014. Still learning! Perhaps a book like Cady's centered on good
> signals would be helpful to those who wish to advance the hobby in general.
>
>
>
>
> Kevin Stover <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> Saturday, May 09, 2015 12:34 PM
>> On Sat, 9 May 2015 14:14:41 +0000 (UTC)
>> Harry Yingst via Elecraft<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As for people responding "They don't care" some of that>comes from far
>>> too many trying to assert some imaginary>authority over another. (like the
>>> guy who drives at or>below the speed limit in the passing lane).
>>>
>>
>> Hasn't the FCC said we are to police ourselves?
>>
>> In time they just stop caring because so many times the>person accusing
>>> them of being wide etc is either a>busybody or>does not have their own gear
>>> set up right.>Sadly that in and of itself becomes a problem because>now
>>> those folks (who may actually have a poor signal)>become closed to true
>>> constructive criticism and they go>on with a poor signal.
>>>
>>
>> So, because they've stopped caring were just supposed to sit on our hands
>> or go our merry way by spinning the knob?
>>
>> I know a particular federal agency who will make them care again.
>> Unfortunatley we have to do most of the evidence gathering and file an
>> actual complaint.
>>
>> The three guys/gals who actually responded saying they don't care would
>> have been first on the list. These are the people who need "self policed"
>> the worst.
>>
>> You wouldn't stand for that arrogant attitude from a guest in your home,
>> I hope, why put up with it on the radio?
>>
>> Any "big gun" contester whose already spent $$$ and has a crap signal
>> comes next. They have the technical chops and resources to fix the problem.
>> If one or more of them are wide to create some kind of guard channel then
>> the contest sponsors and the FCC need to get involved. A nice five year
>> banning from a contest would get their attention.
>>
>> Any ESSBer whose signal is wider than 3.0 KHz is next. Wanna sound like
>> an AM broadcast legen? USE AM in the correct part of the band. You'll be
>> welcomed with open arms.
>>
>> We need to demand more from the manufacturers too. Transmit IMD numbers
>> worse than -35 dB shouldn't be tollerated. I'll bet none os the 12V final
>> rigs, including the K3, could hit that mark. I've sworn off ANY and ALL
>> Yaesu HF rigs FOREVER because of the FT-1000D/MP/Mk5 key click fiasco. When
>> an entire line of your product earns the moniker "cliclmaster" you
>> shouldn't be allowed to ignore it for 10 years like Yaesu did.
>>
>> The more we've ignored it or say "I don't want to get involved", the
>> worse the problem gets.
>>
>> Someone else can use the soapbox now.
>>
>> Harry Yingst via Elecraft <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> Saturday, May 09, 2015 9:14 AM
>> I have seen that as well (people telling others they are wide etc when
>> they are not.
>> I was one night listening to some guys on ESSB with great sounding
>> signals and watching them on the P3, but another station comes up tight to
>> them and start complaining they were wiping them out etc. I dialed down on
>> to the complainers freq and I could not hear the ESSB guys at all.
>>
>> As for people responding "They don't care" some of that comes from far
>> too many trying to assert some imaginary authority over another. (like the
>> guy who drives at or below the speed limit in the passing lane). In time
>> they just stop caring because so many times the person accusing them of
>> being wide etc is either a busybody or does not have their own gear set up
>> right. Sadly that in and of itself becomes a problem because now those
>> folks (who may actually have a poor signal) become closed to true
>> constructive criticism and they go on with a poor signal.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: David Cole <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 10:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters
>>
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Honestly, my first question to you would be how is YOUR radio setup, and
>> how strong was my signal at your location? Are you overloading? Were
>> you running with the Attenuator on, did you have AGC on, etc.
>>
>> I have heard many, many people accuse another ham of being broad, when
>> they were just strong, not wide.
>>
>> When I send out a report to another ham, about wide signals, I include a
>> snap shot from the P3, with a good signal at the same strength as the
>> offending signal. That way the person knows that his/her signal is
>> different from a signal that is the same strength, on the same screen,
>> at the same time.
>>
>> That sort of ends all questions along the lines of the one above I
>> listed.
>>
>> I am a bit surprised some folks actually responded that they did not
>> care... Ham radio has changed a lot over the past 40 years...
>>
>> David Cole <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> Friday, May 08, 2015 9:13 PM
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Honestly, my first question to you would be how is YOUR radio setup, and
>> how strong was my signal at your location? Are you overloading? Were
>> you running with the Attenuator on, did you have AGC on, etc.
>>
>> I have heard many, many people accuse another ham of being broad, when
>> they were just strong, not wide.
>>
>> When I send out a report to another ham, about wide signals, I include a
>> snap shot from the P3, with a good signal at the same strength as the
>> offending signal. That way the person knows that his/her signal is
>> different from a signal that is the same strength, on the same screen,
>> at the same time.
>>
>> That sort of ends all questions along the lines of the one above I
>> listed.
>>
>> I am a bit surprised some folks actually responded that they did not
>> care... Ham radio has changed a lot over the past 40 years...
>>
>>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> http://www.avast.com
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Data mode and filters

In reply to this post by Phil Anderson

Phil,
This is a good idea, and there are people that are willing to write, and have written in some cases, such tutorials; the problem is that many people don't see the need to make adjustments in their equipment, or they deliberately make bad adjustments for whatever reason, and don't want to accept the negative signal reports as fact.
Matthew PittsN8OHU

From: Phil Anderson <[hidden email]>
To: Kevin Stover <[hidden email]>
Cc: Harry Yingst via Elecraft <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

This thread sounds - in part - a bit like junior high batches of
mentality. I'm not sure that this discussion line is appropriate for the
Elecraft reflector.

Perhaps a better long term approach to more good signals on the air is
to recruit a few knowledgeable engineers or advanced hams (tech wise)
that could provide the theory, tutorials on how to set up and
measure/test quality signals. Quality for some may stay in the eye of
the beholder for some anyway.

These high quality tutorials/pieces of info, on a web page or as pdf
files, could be made available for individuals, clubs and perhaps also
find their way into the magazines and other publications.

I've not studied the subject in detail but would be interested in
learning/applying best signals methods.

73, Uncle Phil, W0XI, Lawrence, KS.

PS: I love my K3, P3 and SteppIR vertical. Fun stuff. Bought the K3 kit
in Nov of 2014. Still learning! Perhaps a book like Cady's centered on
good signals would be helpful to those who wish to advance the hobby in
general.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Grant Youngman

Re: Data mode and filters

> On May 9, 2015, at 4:50 PM, Matthew Pitts via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Phil,
> This is a good idea, … or they deliberately make bad adjustments for whatever reason, and don't want to accept the negative signal reports as fact.
> Matthew PittsN8OHU
>

Look .. some guy you’ve never heard of sends you an email telling you your signal is wide. And sends a screenshot from somewhere. I think it would be the reaction of most people to ask “who is this guy, where is his badge, why is he trolling me, and who the <deleted> does he think he is .. the president of my HOA”? For those of you sending “friendly” emails, to presume that your "fabulous highly educated, K3-whatever-based signal measurement expertise” or the fact that you’re “famous” (real or imagined) as a signal quality control genius in your close-knit group is going to push a concrete block out of the way is assuming too much. After all, the guy receiving the email has a Wizeroo 1000 transceiver and Gozmodics 1500 amp, and .. well … they’re the BEST, and they’re connected together just like they’re supposed to be … and the score is everything anyway, which is why all the knobs are turned all the way up, and if there’s a problem it’s YOUR receiver.

So maybe the fellow sending you the report of how wide your signal is is tuning around on a SX-28(?). After all, your contest score is fine, your sidetone is clean, and NO ONE else told you your signal sucks.

What are you going to think? You’re going to blow the guy off. Of course you will. I would, too — because I MONITOR my signal, and would know one way or the other (it’s amazing the number of hams that don’t own a scope, but that’s another issue).

Sending someone an email after the fact might make a difference in a minuscule number of cases. Teaching someone new to it all how to properly adjust a transmitter/amp will help, too. My cynical view is that an ever increasing number take the “open carry and it’s all about me me” society we increasingly live in into radio — if you think you can gain an advantage by screwing up your signal to <deleted> everyone else … well …the score and potential for celebrity is everything. Or some bit of all of the above. Which is why during the seemingly never ending contests on the weekends, I go outside and find something actually productive to do … :)

Grant NQ5T

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New K3 is on the way

In reply to this post by NK7Z

I have a new (to me) K3 on the way along with the Cady book. I would really like to get a good start with this rig. Any setup/startup suggestions or experiences from someone who has been there before would be most appreciated,

Thanks everyone,

Tom KF5WBS

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Data mode and filters

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman

If you are to be effective with communications involving a less than
pristine signal, be upfront about the equipment you are using to monitor
that signal, and yes be prepared to justify the calibration and proper
operating condition of the receiver. Do not take it for granted that
just because you have a K3 and a P3 you should be believed, you have to
substantiate that the receiving station is clean and pristine and is not
overloading. Specs are OK, but not definitive, be prepared to measure
your receiver with good test equipment. For instance, a broadband noise
generator and an audio spectrum analyzer running on your computer will
validate the selectivity of your receiver. That is only one example.

My professional work in the last 10 years of my career was evaluating
products that were to be announced or sent for First Customer Ship. I
worked in contention with the development team and always needed to
validate my observations and conclusions - lesson learned, always be
prepared to defend your measurements and conclusions, they *will* be
challenged.
As an old college professor once advised - technician (or engineer),
know your tools, and more importantly, know their limitations.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/9/2015 6:37 PM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:

> Look .. some guy you’ve never heard of sends you an email telling you
> your signal is wide. And sends a screenshot from somewhere. I think it
> would be the reaction of most people to ask “who is this guy, where is
> his badge, why is he trolling me, and who the <deleted> does he think
> he is .. the president of my HOA”? For those of you sending “friendly”
> emails, to presume that your "fabulous highly educated,
> K3-whatever-based signal measurement expertise” or the fact that
> you’re “famous” (real or imagined) as a signal quality control genius
> in your close-knit group is going to push a concrete block out of the
> way is assuming too much. After all, the guy receiving the email has a
> Wizeroo 1000 transceiver and Gozmodics 1500 amp, and .. well … they’re
> the BEST, and they’re connected together just like they’re supposed to
> be … and the score is everything anyway, which is why all the knobs
> are turned all the way up, and if there’s a problem it’s YOUR receiver.

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: New K3 is on the way

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Tom,

Walk through the Cady book and do the exercises, and by the time you get
to the end, you will know the K3 capabilities and how to operate it very
well.

If you want a "quick start", take a look at the K3 menu entries in the
regular K3 manual (they are listed about 2/3 of the way through the
manual). That will give you an idea of how you can customize the K3 to
your particular tastes and operating desires. Then equipped with that
customization information, you can dig deeper into the K3 manual or Cady
book to tell you how to make the menu changes to your advantage.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/9/2015 7:14 PM, KF5WBS via Elecraft wrote:

> I have a new (to me) K3 on the way along with the Cady book. I would really like to get a good start with this rig. Any setup/startup suggestions or experiences from someone who has been there before would be most appreciated,
>
> Thanks everyone,
>
> Tom KF5WBS
>
>
>
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