Dayton review

[DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL]

Hi all:

Arrive in Dayton Thurday, left Sunday.  Good time.

Comments:

K3:  I bought one (paid in full).  K3/100.  I can add more later and
by the time I get mine (Sept build, maybe early Oct delivery?) the
"other stuff" should be sitting on the inventory shelf so no need to
make those decisions at Dayton.

Interesting method of demonstrating the QSK (turn off side town and
listen to the band "hiss" on receive, nothing recovery time.  Not a
great demo, but better than nothing.  I'll see for sure when it
arrives.

Reading about the features is one thing, seeing them all work together
("seeing" because not much an antenna was available) was much more
impressive.  Got to see how things interact with other and how
flexible/easy they are to manipulate.  Impressed.

IC7700:  Rather boring.  IC7800 without dual receive or dual watch
(which even the 756 does).  Price point said to be between $5 and $7k.
 Heard others say $6k (which is between 5 and 7 - LOL).  Pretty to
look at, bummed about performance.  Just think, you could buy 2 - 3
K3's (depending on how you configure them) for the same cost.   I
don't think the pan display is worth that kind of $ differential.  But
then again, I am motivated by performance and not looks.

With two K3's and "something else" (aftermarket) for the pan display,
you would still save a fortune compared to single 7800, have more
flexibility, better specs (likely), and still have $5K left over.  No
brainer unless you like to brag about how much money you threw away.
Prior 7800 owners excepted as it WAS the best thing going (before).

FT9000:  This was really funny in the extreme.  It is so overboard.
If any of you (OTers) ever read MAD magazine, it is like the cartoons
they used to run.  For example, the one where they showed a "new" car
from the 60's..it has 20 "rocket fins" on the trunk and 15 headlights.
 I'm sure it is a nice radio, but gee whiz.  Make sure you budget to
rent a crane to move it.

Flex 5000:  GREAT specs, zero radio-ness.  One method of "tuning the
band" is to use a "hand tool" (like you use on a pdf file) and you
"pull" the band across your display (like Goole Maps).  Very, ummmm,
different.  User interface (tactile) is all but lacking.  There is
this external device with pushbuttons and a knob to use, but I like at
least two knobs (one for each VFO or one for VFO and one for RIT/XIT).
 If they ever get a better (much better) human interface, this will be
one to watch.

The K3 fits nicely between the FT9000 (overkill on a grand scale) and
the Flex 5000 (a mouse).  Can't beat a radio that you can lift up off
of the desk with one hand so the other hand is free to move other
stuff around.

Tokyo Hi-Power:  1.5KW output solid state amp.  Very nice.  Waiting
for type acceptance.  Price proposed as $6K.  This is the ONLY
brochure I actually took home.  Not in my future, but nice to look at.

Still can't wait for the official specs to be published (within next
six weeks?).

de Doug KR2Q
PS

Great to meet Eric, Lyle, Wayne from Elecraft and esp enjoyed chatting
with Don, W3FPR.  He is as nice in person as you would expect from
this 10,000 helpful posts.

PPS...best "other" Tee Shirt:  "Power is no substitute for Skill."  Love it.
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[Brian Lloyd-6]

> Flex 5000:  GREAT specs, zero radio-ness.  One method of "tuning the
> band" is to use a "hand tool" (like you use on a pdf file) and you
> "pull" the band across your display (like Goole Maps).  Very, ummmm,
> different.  User interface (tactile) is all but lacking.  There is
> this external device with pushbuttons and a knob to use, but I like at
> least two knobs (one for each VFO or one for VFO and one for RIT/XIT).
> If they ever get a better (much better) human interface, this will be
> one to watch.

Just get three of those sexy USB knobs. There should be a way to bind  
them to the various knob-functions in software.

OTOH, it wouldn't be hard to build a panel that had all the switches  
and knobs and then spoke to the software over USB. Use the CRT to  
make useful pictures like the pan display, metering, status messages,  
etc.

This is an interesting User Interface (UI to us computer geeks)  
issue. One of the best things in the world to keep confusion to a  
minimum is a panel with knobs and switches that each do one and only  
one thing. Put labels on 'em and it is pretty hard to get confused  
about which "mode" the button is in. I got this from Jef Raskin who  
was in part responsible for the original Apple Macintosh. He is  
right. Frankly, this is where I think the K3 wins.

OTOH, I wonder about the "open-ness" of the K3's software to allow  
hackers to add new modes and new modulations. Making the K3 "open"  
with some kind of SDK would clinch the deal hands-down.

> PPS...best "other" Tee Shirt:  "Power is no substitute for Skill."  
> Love it.

And to add to that, "Power is no substitute for propagation.  
Sometimes it is better just to MUF it."

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive
brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.  A good  
citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.

PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C



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[Craig Rairdin]

>> Flex 5000:  GREAT specs, zero radio-ness.  One method of "tuning the
>> band" is to use a "hand tool" (like you use on a pdf file) and you
>> "pull" the band across your display (like Goole Maps).  Very, ummmm,
>> different.  User interface (tactile) is all but lacking.  

>Just get three of those sexy USB knobs. There should be a way to bind  
>them to the various knob-functions in software.

This is one of the problems I have with the whole SDR concept. I don't quite
understand the attractiveness of a radio where the UI has just been ignored
or placed onto a device that is not really designed for the task.

It's like they're saying "We're smart enough to do all this great RF design
but we just can't handle the human interface. (In fact we'll even leave a
lot of the RF design up to you.)" The PC is a non-optimum (but convenient)
UI for many of the things we ask it to do. This is definitely one of them.
When you have to start adding physical knobs and switches it seems obvious
to me that you're admitting that you're trying to use the wrong tool for the
job.

For example, I'm a pilot and when I do my recurrent training we don't use
Microsoft Flight Simulator even though it does an excellent job of
simulating real flying characteristics. We get inside a big box that has a
mock-up of a real instrument panel and real flight controls. The designers
of these devices know that clicking a button with your mouse on a picture of
a panel isn't the same as pressing the real button on a real panel.

I'm just not impressed with a product that does a half-baked job of UI
design.

Craig
NZ0R

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I too am a little dismayed with SDR Radios that use the computer interface as the control.  I like knobs, buttons, sliders, meters, etc.
   
  I think the way the SDR concept was designed was by thinking outside of the box - but - I think the designers jumped into another box.
   
  Yes, they went outside the box of physical controls....to another box...GUI controls (screen/mouse/pointer/etc.).
   
  Now the question is which is better?  Why is one better over the other?  A large factor is determining the control of radios is what the market place wants, desires, and/or expects a radio to be.  Or, is it both?  Making the leap from knobs to GUI is pretty large for me, but on the other hand I want to have my hand on a knob with the option of having the PC do some of the work.
   
  Of course the SDR type of radios is still in the beginning stages as a perceived radio.  What would happen if the technology from the SDR radio is packaged in a box with knobs and switches along with a niffty display.
   
  Lee - K0wa
   


In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common Sense devine?
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[Craig Rairdin]

> I think the way the SDR concept was designed was by
> thinking outside of the box - but - I think the
> designers jumped into another box.

I think the problem is when they jumped from a hard-wired modulation/signal
processing/tuning idea to a software-defined modulation/signal
processing/tuning concept they opted to use the one computing platform that
everyone has at their disposal: the pc (to be distinguished from "PC" which
might imply Windows). Since the pc has powerful UI and other interfaces
readily available, it was convenient to implement the UI there, too. It's as
if they just "gave up" on the UI and accepted the suboptimum UI resources of
the signal processing computer on their desktop.

> Of course the SDR type of radios is still in the
> beginning stages as a perceived radio.  What would
> happen if the technology from the SDR radio is
> packaged in a box with knobs and switches along
> with a niffty display.

Well, you'd have something like a K3. The K3 may not be completely open to
customer-modification, but much of the capabilities of the radio are
determined by its software.

The problem is that developing software for an SDR that comes in a box with
controls on the front panel would require specialized hardware and software
to interface with the box. But in the end I think you'd have a better user
experience... Imagine, for example, a reconfigurable front panel either with
excess knobs and switches that could be incorporated into the software, or
one with modular knobs and switches that could be plugged together like Lego
blocks to create a custom panel.

Maybe this stuff already exists. I don't pay attention to that market
because it asks me to do work I'd prefer to pay others to do.

Craig
NZ0R

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[Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO]

Lee Buller wrote:

>  I think the way the SDR concept was designed was by thinking outside
> of the box - but - I think the designers jumped into another box.

One could legitimately argue that the only way to see how far in a given
direction is "too far" is to go there and try it out. Then start backtracking
and find that sweet spot.

I agree that operating a radio with a screen and a mouse is uninspiring duty,
to say the best of it -- and a significant handicap at worst. Nevertheless,
good ideas can come out of this exercise. On the Flex SDR-1000, for example,
the ability to click on signals spotted on the very high-resolution panoramic
display is totally cool.

But it's the concept that's cool, not the implementation. Does one necessarily
require a computer and a mouse to implement this concept? Of course not. Just
use some good engineering imagination! Perhaps the upcoming Elecraft K3
Panadapter will have this kind of functionality implemented in some really
elegant way no one has even thought of yet.  :-)  I wouldn't b surprised.

Bill / W5WVO


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[Jack Smith-6]

 On the Flex SDR-1000, for example, the ability to click on signals
spotted on the very high-resolution panoramic display is totally cool.
>
> But it's the concept that's cool, not the implementation. Does one
> necessarily require a computer and a mouse to implement this concept?
> Of course not. Just use some good engineering imagination! Perhaps the
> upcoming Elecraft K3 Panadapter will have this kind of functionality
> implemented in some really elegant way no one has even thought of
> yet.  :-)  I wouldn't b surprised.
>
>
This feature is already available to K2 users owning a Z90/91, in both
waterfall and normal panadapter mode. Put the mouse on the area and
click and the K2 is tuned to that frequency. With an optional "nearest 1
KHz" box, as the SSB operations seem to be channelized on 1 KHz raster
these days.


Jack K8ZOA
www.cliftonlaboratories.com, home of the Z90/91 panadapters and Z100 CW
tuning aid



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[Don Nesbitt]

Jack - I hope that Wayne and Eric contract with you to produce the
"panadapter" for the K3. It should have that kind of functionality as well
as at least a vertical line indicating the xcv freq and when split, both the
tx and the rx should be indicated as well.  Of course, a color display with
the lines in different colors as well as a "sweep hold" function or at least
a "peak sweep delay" of some sort. The ability to hook a large flat screen
monitor would be very desirable as well.  USB mouse port and no computer
required.

Just because the rig is small, it doesn't mean that the display has to be!
Old eyes will appreciate it!  73 es gud dxing -- Don N4HH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jack Smith
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:34 AM
To: Bill W5WVO; 'Elecraft'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SDR UI

 On the Flex SDR-1000, for example, the ability to click on signals
spotted on the very high-resolution panoramic display is totally cool.
>
> But it's the concept that's cool, not the implementation. Does one
> necessarily require a computer and a mouse to implement this concept?
> Of course not. Just use some good engineering imagination! Perhaps the
> upcoming Elecraft K3 Panadapter will have this kind of functionality
> implemented in some really elegant way no one has even thought of
> yet.  :-)  I wouldn't b surprised.
>
>
This feature is already available to K2 users owning a Z90/91, in both
waterfall and normal panadapter mode. Put the mouse on the area and
click and the K2 is tuned to that frequency. With an optional "nearest 1
KHz" box, as the SSB operations seem to be channelized on 1 KHz raster
these days.


Jack K8ZOA
www.cliftonlaboratories.com, home of the Z90/91 panadapters and Z100 CW
tuning aid

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[Greg - AB7R]

Personally I like the idea of using an LCD screen for the
display.  It would cut down on production costs and the
display would be nice and large.  Or at least, to have the
option to direct the display to an external monitor.
Once done, the Elecraft panadapter should have some VERY
COOL features that are just not found in other displays.

73
Greg
AB7R


On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:56:48 -0400
  "Don Nesbitt" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jack - I hope that Wayne and Eric contract with you to
>produce the
> "panadapter" for the K3. It should have that kind of
>functionality as well
> as at least a vertical line indicating the xcv freq and
>when split, both the
> tx and the rx should be indicated as well.  Of course, a
>color display with
> the lines in different colors as well as a "sweep hold"
>function or at least
> a "peak sweep delay" of some sort. The ability to hook a
>large flat screen
> monitor would be very desirable as well.  USB mouse port
>and no computer
> required.
>
> Just because the rig is small, it doesn't mean that the
>display has to be!
> Old eyes will appreciate it!  73 es gud dxing -- Don
>N4HH
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>Jack Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:34 AM
> To: Bill W5WVO; 'Elecraft'
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SDR UI
>
> On the Flex SDR-1000, for example, the ability to click
>on signals
> spotted on the very high-resolution panoramic display is
>totally cool.
>>
>> But it's the concept that's cool, not the
>>implementation. Does one
>> necessarily require a computer and a mouse to implement
>>this concept?
>> Of course not. Just use some good engineering
>>imagination! Perhaps the
>> upcoming Elecraft K3 Panadapter will have this kind of
>>functionality
>> implemented in some really elegant way no one has even
>>thought of
>> yet.  :-)  I wouldn't b surprised.
>>
>>
> This feature is already available to K2 users owning a
>Z90/91, in both
> waterfall and normal panadapter mode. Put the mouse on
>the area and
> click and the K2 is tuned to that frequency. With an
>optional "nearest 1
> KHz" box, as the SSB operations seem to be channelized
>on 1 KHz raster
> these days.
>
>
> Jack K8ZOA
> www.cliftonlaboratories.com, home of the Z90/91
>panadapters and Z100 CW
> tuning aid
>
> _______________________________________________
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If an SDR radio needed to be tuned like a radio with a knob-based
user-interface, then tuning via any kind of computer interface would (to
me) be a chore, and at the very least, not much fun.

However -- if you've ever used the PowerSDR console with either the
SDR-1000 or the SoftRock, then you know that having the ability to see
many signals in the panadapter, well outside of the current filter
bandwidth, and being able to click on any one of those signals and have
it immediately centered in your passband (in the case of a cw signal) is
a fantastic way to operate. The most direct way to do that is via a
simple mouse click. Fine-tuning around that point is easily accomplished
via the mouse wheel (on which you'd already have your hand), or an
actual knob connected to the computer via a USB port.

Operating an SDR (Software *defined* radio) radio with a high-resolution
panadpator display is vastly different than operating a Software
*controlled* radio, or a 'standard' radio with knobs and switches.
Remember, without a panadapter, you have to hear a signal in order to
find it. With an SDR radio, you'll *see* stations well before you hear
them -- and hearing them is a single mouse-click away.

Fun stuff, these panadapters!

73, Dale
WA8SRA
K2 S/N: 3039


Craig Rairdin wrote:

>>> Flex 5000:  GREAT specs, zero radio-ness.  One method of "tuning the
>>> band" is to use a "hand tool" (like you use on a pdf file) and you
>>> "pull" the band across your display (like Goole Maps).  Very, ummmm,
>>> different.  User interface (tactile) is all but lacking.  
>>>      
>
>  
>> Just get three of those sexy USB knobs. There should be a way to bind  
>> them to the various knob-functions in software.
>>    
>
> This is one of the problems I have with the whole SDR concept. I don't quite
> understand the attractiveness of a radio where the UI has just been ignored
> or placed onto a device that is not really designed for the task.
>
> It's like they're saying "We're smart enough to do all this great RF design
> but we just can't handle the human interface. (In fact we'll even leave a
> lot of the RF design up to you.)" The PC is a non-optimum (but convenient)
> UI for many of the things we ask it to do. This is definitely one of them.
> When you have to start adding physical knobs and switches it seems obvious
> to me that you're admitting that you're trying to use the wrong tool for the
> job.
>
> For example, I'm a pilot and when I do my recurrent training we don't use
> Microsoft Flight Simulator even though it does an excellent job of
> simulating real flying characteristics. We get inside a big box that has a
> mock-up of a real instrument panel and real flight controls. The designers
> of these devices know that clicking a button with your mouse on a picture of
> a panel isn't the same as pressing the real button on a real panel.
>
> I'm just not impressed with a product that does a half-baked job of UI
> design.
>
> Craig
> NZ0R
>
>  

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[Craig Smith]

<> Just because the rig is small, it doesn't mean that the display has to
be!
<> Old eyes will appreciate it!  73 es gud dxing -- Don N4HH

AMEN !!   I vote for no internal display in the K3 panadapter, but full
color support for an external flat panel monitor of the user's choice.  This
will result in a lower cost and more versatile product and allow the user to
select the screen size they want.  A USB keyboard/mouse interface could also
be useful.

Can't wait  ;>)  

73
         ... Craig  AC0DS


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