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Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

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john@kk9a.com

Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

I agree that 5ms is too fast for many amplifiers. Is computer sent CW also
spoiled when increasing the delay? Does it only effect QSK or all CW
transmissions?

John KK9A

Igor Sokolov ua9cdc wrote:

Wayne it is a pity that TX delay setting affects CW timing. Changing TX
delay from default even one or two steps makes CW much worth. Can you
figure out a way to make CW timing independent from TX delay? With 5 ms
TX delay working in many contests I already had to change a pair of
relays in the amplifier. 10-12 ms would be fine for me. 20 ms will
probably suit the majority of users. But 5 ms is way too fast and
unfortunately cannot be altered without spoiling CW sending. I know that
I could build external sequencer but this does not look neat enough
especially for portable field operation. Every other radio I had allowed
TX delay adjustment to at least 20 ms.

73, Igor UA9CDC

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wayne burdick

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

Administrator

The delay can be set from 8-20 ms at present. Given the small time offset, this is actually 5-17 ms (approx). Use small values if possible.

With external keying, you can generally compensate by reducing the device’s weighting.

Wayne

----
http://www.elecraft.com

> On Jun 8, 2018, at 5:02 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree that 5ms is too fast for many amplifiers. Is computer sent CW also
> spoiled when increasing the delay? Does it only effect QSK or all
> transmissions?
>
> John KK9A
>
> Igor Sokolov ua9cdc wrote:
>
> Wayne it is a pity that TX delay setting affects CW timing. Changing TX
> delay from default even one or two steps makes CW much worth. Can you
> figure out a way to make CW timing independent from TX delay? With 5 ms
> TX delay working in many contests I already had to change a pair of
> relays in the amplifier. 10-12 ms would be fine for me. 20 ms will
> probably suit the majority of users. But 5 ms is way too fast and
> unfortunately cannot be altered without spoiling CW sending. I know that
> I could build external sequencer but this does not look neat enough
> especially for portable field operation. Every other radio I had allowed
> TX delay adjustment to at least 20 ms.
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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wayne burdick

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

Administrator

Also, a reminder: this is nothing new. We’re just clarifying a delay offset that has existed for a long time. There have been no recent firmware changes.

It would be possible to modify the K3’s keying algorithm to allow for much longer delays (say, 0 to 200 ms). Of course this would significantly shift CW RF output in time relative to keying input.

Fortunately, very few amplifiers require more that a few ms of extra delay.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

----
http://www.elecraft.com

> On Jun 8, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The delay can be set from 8-20 ms at present. Given the small time offset, this is actually 5-17 ms (approx). Use small values if possible.
>
> With external keying, you can generally compensate by reducing the device’s weighting.
>
> Wayne
>
> ----
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
>> On Jun 8, 2018, at 5:02 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I agree that 5ms is too fast for many amplifiers. Is computer sent CW also
>> spoiled when increasing the delay? Does it only effect QSK or all
>> transmissions?
>>
>> John KK9A
>>
>> Igor Sokolov ua9cdc wrote:
>>
>> Wayne it is a pity that TX delay setting affects CW timing. Changing TX
>> delay from default even one or two steps makes CW much worth. Can you
>> figure out a way to make CW timing independent from TX delay? With 5 ms
>> TX delay working in many contests I already had to change a pair of
>> relays in the amplifier. 10-12 ms would be fine for me. 20 ms will
>> probably suit the majority of users. But 5 ms is way too fast and
>> unfortunately cannot be altered without spoiling CW sending. I know that
>> I could build external sequencer but this does not look neat enough
>> especially for portable field operation. Every other radio I had allowed
>> TX delay adjustment to at least 20 ms.
>>
>> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]

john@kk9a.com

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

I am sure that just adding a few ms will work with most amplifiers but my
question was what exactly happens to CW. Is it just the first dit that gets
clipped. Does computer keying with Winkey still perform properly with
longer TX delays?

John KK9A

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy 7 edge, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone.

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also, a reminder: this is nothing new. We’re just clarifying a delay
> offset that has existed for a long time. There have been no recent firmware
> changes.
>
> It would be possible to modify the K3’s keying algorithm to allow for much
> longer delays (say, 0 to 200 ms). Of course this would significantly shift
> CW RF output in time relative to keying input.
>
> Fortunately, very few amplifiers require more that a few ms of extra
> delay.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ----
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
> > On Jun 8, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > The delay can be set from 8-20 ms at present. Given the small time
> offset, this is actually 5-17 ms (approx). Use small values if possible.
> >
> > With external keying, you can generally compensate by reducing the
> device’s weighting.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> > ----
> > http://www.elecraft.com
> >
> >> On Jun 8, 2018, at 5:02 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree that 5ms is too fast for many amplifiers. Is computer sent CW
> also
> >> spoiled when increasing the delay? Does it only effect QSK or all
> >> transmissions?
> >>
> >> John KK9A
> >>
> >> Igor Sokolov ua9cdc wrote:
> >>
> >> Wayne it is a pity that TX delay setting affects CW timing. Changing TX
> >> delay from default even one or two steps makes CW much worth. Can you
> >> figure out a way to make CW timing independent from TX delay? With 5 ms
> >> TX delay working in many contests I already had to change a pair of
> >> relays in the amplifier. 10-12 ms would be fine for me. 20 ms will
> >> probably suit the majority of users. But 5 ms is way too fast and
> >> unfortunately cannot be altered without spoiling CW sending. I know that
> >> I could build external sequencer but this does not look neat enough
> >> especially for portable field operation. Every other radio I had allowed
> >> TX delay adjustment to at least 20 ms.
> >>
> >> 73, Igor UA9CDC
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

For the last few years I used an Ameritron AL-80B, 4 years old and one
with the open frame relay.   Measured time from command to relay closure
and settling was in the order of 15 ms. For this I set my K3S for 20 ms
without concern and no evidence of hot switching.    The new AL amps are
reported to be faster with different relays.

But best of all {AL-80B was sold} and a new KPA500 added to the desk.
SWEET!   Nothing to go "clack"........and won't look back.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 6/8/2018 9:48 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Also, a reminder: this is nothing new. We’re just clarifying a delay offset that has existed for a long time. There have been no recent firmware changes.
>
> It would be possible to modify the K3’s keying algorithm to allow for much longer delays (say, 0 to 200 ms). Of course this would significantly shift CW RF output in time relative to keying input.
>
> Fortunately, very few amplifiers require more that a few ms of extra delay.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ----
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
>> On Jun 8, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The delay can be set from 8-20 ms at present. Given the small time offset, this is actually 5-17 ms (approx). Use small values if possible.
>>
>> With external keying, you can generally compensate by reducing the device’s weighting.
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>> ----
>> http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 2018, at 5:02 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree that 5ms is too fast for many amplifiers. Is computer sent CW also
>>> spoiled when increasing the delay? Does it only effect QSK or all
>>> transmissions?
>>>
>>> John KK9A
>>>
>>> Igor Sokolov ua9cdc wrote:
>>>
>>> Wayne it is a pity that TX delay setting affects CW timing. Changing TX
>>> delay from default even one or two steps makes CW much worth. Can you
>>> figure out a way to make CW timing independent from TX delay? With 5 ms
>>> TX delay working in many contests I already had to change a pair of
>>> relays in the amplifier. 10-12 ms would be fine for me. 20 ms will
>>> probably suit the majority of users. But 5 ms is way too fast and
>>> unfortunately cannot be altered without spoiling CW sending. I know that
>>> I could build external sequencer but this does not look neat enough
>>> especially for portable field operation. Every other radio I had allowed
>>> TX delay adjustment to at least 20 ms.
>>>
>>> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Dimitry Borzenko

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Hi group.
Please understand, this nice transceiver is used not only for HF. but
also for VHF,UHF and uppp.
So, more TX DLY is needed!
LNAs, polarization switches, PA and transverters in the transmission
line.
Sequencer is nice device but if U press XMIT button - BIG BAGA BUM :(
I hope Elecraft engineers will add additional TX DLY.

Tnx a lot.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Sent: 08.06.2018 17:48:26
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for
slow QRO amplifiers

>Also, a reminder: this is nothing new. We’re just clarifying a delay
>offset that has existed for a long time. There have been no recent
>firmware changes.
>
>It would be possible to modify the K3’s keying algorithm to allow for
>much longer delays (say, 0 to 200 ms). Of course this would
>significantly shift CW RF output in time relative to keying input.
>
>Fortunately, very few amplifiers require more that a few ms of extra
>delay.
>
>73,
>Wayne
>N6KR
>
>
>----
>http://www.elecraft.com
>
>>On Jun 8, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>The delay can be set from 8-20 ms at present. Given the small time
>>offset, this is actually 5-17 ms (approx). Use small values if
>>possible.
>>
>>With external keying, you can generally compensate by reducing the
>>device’s weighting.
>>
>>Wayne
>>
>>----
>>http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>>On Jun 8, 2018, at 5:02 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>I agree that 5ms is too fast for many amplifiers. Is computer sent CW
>>>also
>>>spoiled when increasing the delay? Does it only effect QSK or all
>>>transmissions?
>>>
>>>John KK9A
>>>
>>>Igor Sokolov ua9cdc wrote:
>>>
>>>Wayne it is a pity that TX delay setting affects CW timing. Changing
>>>TX
>>>delay from default even one or two steps makes CW much worth. Can you
>>>figure out a way to make CW timing independent from TX delay? With 5
>>>ms
>>>TX delay working in many contests I already had to change a pair of
>>>relays in the amplifier. 10-12 ms would be fine for me. 20 ms will
>>>probably suit the majority of users. But 5 ms is way too fast and
>>>unfortunately cannot be altered without spoiling CW sending. I know
>>>that
>>>I could build external sequencer but this does not look neat enough
>>>especially for portable field operation. Every other radio I had
>>>allowed
>>>TX delay adjustment to at least 20 ms.
>>>
>>>73, Igor UA9CDC
>>>
>>>______________________________________________________________
>>>Elecraft mailing list
>>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>Message delivered to [hidden email]
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

On 2018-06-08 10:53 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Does computer keying with Winkey still perform properly with
> longer TX delays?

If you use the PTT output of WinKey with computer keying, the
delay is a non factor. Set TX Lead in WinKey as needed for
your amplifier and the WinKey keyer will assert PTT *before*
the CW output (key closure) by the desired value. Allowing
PTT to "lead" the output will not result in any character
clipping.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2018-06-08 10:53 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I am sure that just adding a few ms will work with most amplifiers but my
> question was what exactly happens to CW. Is it just the first dit that gets
> clipped. Does computer keying with Winkey still perform properly with
> longer TX delays?
>
> John KK9A
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy 7 edge, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone.
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Also, a reminder: this is nothing new. We’re just clarifying a delay
>> offset that has existed for a long time. There have been no recent firmware
>> changes.
>>
>> It would be possible to modify the K3’s keying algorithm to allow for much
>> longer delays (say, 0 to 200 ms). Of course this would significantly shift
>> CW RF output in time relative to keying input.
>>
>> Fortunately, very few amplifiers require more that a few ms of extra
>> delay.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>> ----
>> http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> The delay can be set from 8-20 ms at present. Given the small time
>> offset, this is actually 5-17 ms (approx). Use small values if possible.
>>>
>>> With external keying, you can generally compensate by reducing the
>> device’s weighting.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>> ----
>>> http://www.elecraft.com
>>>
>>>> On Jun 8, 2018, at 5:02 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree that 5ms is too fast for many amplifiers. Is computer sent CW
>> also
>>>> spoiled when increasing the delay? Does it only effect QSK or all
>>>> transmissions?
>>>>
>>>> John KK9A
>>>>
>>>> Igor Sokolov ua9cdc wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wayne it is a pity that TX delay setting affects CW timing. Changing TX
>>>> delay from default even one or two steps makes CW much worth. Can you
>>>> figure out a way to make CW timing independent from TX delay? With 5 ms
>>>> TX delay working in many contests I already had to change a pair of
>>>> relays in the amplifier. 10-12 ms would be fine for me. 20 ms will
>>>> probably suit the majority of users. But 5 ms is way too fast and
>>>> unfortunately cannot be altered without spoiling CW sending. I know that
>>>> I could build external sequencer but this does not look neat enough
>>>> especially for portable field operation. Every other radio I had allowed
>>>> TX delay adjustment to at least 20 ms.
>>>>
>>>> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

In reply to this post by Dimitry Borzenko

From experience, in an operation as you describe, a sequencer is almost
mandatory to assure each item switches as it should and that proper
feedback on that item to the sequencer to allow it to proceed to the
next interval and switching. I don't feel one can relay just on the
radio to perform this function. My sequenced EME station put the
transceiver in the transmit mode as the last item in the timing of
events. I don't understand how one can expect a transceiver to supply
multi sequenced events.

I've fried enough mast mounted preamps, coax relays and caused amp flash
overs enough times before a proper timed sequencer was employed. Legal
limit power on 70 cm can really do nasty things.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 6/8/2018 12:56 PM, Dimitry Borzenko wrote:

> Hi group.
> Please understand, this nice transceiver is used not only for HF. but
> also for VHF,UHF and uppp.
> So, more TX DLY is needed!
> LNAs, polarization switches, PA and transverters in the transmission
> line.
> Sequencer is nice device but if U press XMIT button - BIG BAGA BUM :(
> I hope Elecraft engineers will add additional TX DLY.
>
> Tnx a lot.
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

With the Elecraft gear (starting with the K3), a sequencer can be
started with the KEYOUT output and RF held off by TX INHibit until the
sequencer completes.
Of course, there are other methods, but to my mind, that is the most
"automatic" method - you operate the transceiver as normal and it "just
happens".

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/8/2018 7:46 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> From experience, in an operation as you describe, a sequencer is almost
> mandatory to assure each item switches as it should and that proper
> feedback on that item to the sequencer to allow it to proceed to the
> next interval and switching. I don't feel one can relay just on the
> radio to perform this function. My sequenced EME station put the
> transceiver in the transmit mode as the last item in the timing of
> events. I don't understand how one can expect a transceiver to supply
> multi sequenced events.
>
> I've fried enough mast mounted preamps, coax relays and caused amp flash
> overs enough times before a proper timed sequencer was employed. Legal
> limit power on 70 cm can really do nasty things.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 6/8/2018 12:56 PM, Dimitry Borzenko wrote:
>> Hi group.
>> Please understand, this nice transceiver is used not only for HF. but
>> also for VHF,UHF and uppp.
>> So, more TX DLY is needed!
>> LNAs, polarization switches, PA and transverters in the transmission
>> line.
>> Sequencer is nice device but if U press XMIT button - BIG BAGA BUM :(
>> I hope Elecraft engineers will add additional TX DLY.
>>
>> Tnx a lot.
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Dimitry Borzenko

Re: Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for slow QRO amplifiers

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Hi Bob.
Transceiver can not supply multi sequenced events, but can prevent to
burn LNA if have long TX DLY time and input of sequencer connected to
PTT of K3.
You can say, who connect sequencer to the transceiver, sequencer must
engage TRX and not contrariwise.
Two ways is right, but every way have weakness.
In first way when sequencer gives PTT command to TRX - pushing on
"Send", "XMIT" or PTT on microphone or keyer will destroy LNA etc. if
do not use TX Inhibit.
In second way when we have enough delay between PTT signal and RF output
- we need to set delay time little bit more then all commutations needs,
for example I know my mast LNA needs 30ms, PA 40ms plus additional 10ms,
so for safety use 80mS is enough(if U use delay time between LNA off and
PA ON).
I have use sequencer in the PA( sequence ~60mS) and generate -9V for
TS-2000, for K3S I need different voltage for TX Inhibit, all this
signals needs only because I do not have option to set TX DLY more than
20mS!

Regards.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Bob McGraw K4TAX" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 09.06.2018 2:46:26
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Default K3 transmit delay may be too short for
slow QRO amplifiers

>From experience, in an operation as you describe, a sequencer is almost
>mandatory to assure each item switches as it should and that proper
>feedback on that item to the sequencer to allow it to proceed to the
>next interval and switching. I don't feel one can relay just on the
>radio to perform this function. My sequenced EME station put the
>transceiver in the transmit mode as the last item in the timing of
>events. I don't understand how one can expect a transceiver to
>supply multi sequenced events.
>
>I've fried enough mast mounted preamps, coax relays and caused amp
>flash overs enough times before a proper timed sequencer was employed.
> Legal limit power on 70 cm can really do nasty things.
>
>73
>
>Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>On 6/8/2018 12:56 PM, Dimitry Borzenko wrote:
>>Hi group.
>>Please understand, this nice transceiver is used not only for HF. but
>>also for VHF,UHF and uppp.
>>So, more TX DLY is needed!
>>LNAs, polarization switches, PA and transverters in the transmission
>>line.
>>Sequencer is nice device but if U press XMIT button - BIG BAGA BUM :(
>>I hope Elecraft engineers will add additional TX DLY.
>>
>>Tnx a lot.
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]