Delay in monitor audio - it aint there!

[Lu Romero - W4LT]

To those of you who were complaining about the delay in the
K3 audio monitor chain, I am curious what you are hearing.  

After reading the thread, and playing around with the radio
for a few days critically listening for this issue, I dont
hear a problem.  

Maybe its a matter of your listening through a sound card or
some other external device.  Or maybe you have external
digital processing after your microphone.  However, with a
microphone plugged in directly (OK, through a microHAM
MicroKeyerII then into the K3) and my headphones plugged in
to the front panel headphone jack, I do not hear any
discernable delay in the audio feed when listening to myself
in the audio monitor of the rig.

And before I get flamed for not knowing what to listen for,
Im "learned" in audio delay issues... As a broadcaster, I
understand audio delay and can see lip sync problems down to
around 2 video frames (just ask ABC and Fox TV Network
Control centers, they probably curse me even today).
Newspeople have complemented me on my attention to their
audio delay problems in their IFB and ProChannel feeds for
years (rare for them, because usually they only talk to
engineers when things are broken or they want a free tape
for their resume reel).

Lu Romero - W4LT
K3 #3192





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[Bob Cunnings NW8L]

Here's an interesting piece on K3 transmit audio processing:

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_speech_processing.htm

where it is reported that "There's 31 milliseconds of processing delay
in the K3's DSP stages between microphone input and monitor output..."
using the setup described in the article. The date is 15 March 2009.

Bob NW8L

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Lu Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To those of you who were complaining about the delay in the
> K3 audio monitor chain, I am curious what you are hearing.
>
> After reading the thread, and playing around with the radio
> for a few days critically listening for this issue, I dont
> hear a problem.
>
> Maybe its a matter of your listening through a sound card or
> some other external device.  Or maybe you have external
> digital processing after your microphone.  However, with a
> microphone plugged in directly (OK, through a microHAM
> MicroKeyerII then into the K3) and my headphones plugged in
> to the front panel headphone jack, I do not hear any
> discernable delay in the audio feed when listening to myself
> in the audio monitor of the rig.
>
> And before I get flamed for not knowing what to listen for,
> Im "learned" in audio delay issues... As a broadcaster, I
> understand audio delay and can see lip sync problems down to
> around 2 video frames (just ask ABC and Fox TV Network
> Control centers, they probably curse me even today).
> Newspeople have complemented me on my attention to their
> audio delay problems in their IFB and ProChannel feeds for
> years (rare for them, because usually they only talk to
> engineers when things are broken or they want a free tape
> for their resume reel).
>
> Lu Romero - W4LT
> K3 #3192
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Guy, K2AV]

The conclusion, only found at the very bottom of the article:

"Conclusion:

RF clipping, as implemented in the K3, is quite effective at
increasing "talk power" without causing major increases in transmitted
intermodulation. The resulting audio quality at high levels of
clipping may not be suitable for extended rag chew conversations, but
will provide useful improvements in contests or other situations where
maximum dynamic range of the recovered audio is not the primary
consideration."

Although 31 ms of delay was reported, that wasn't what the article was
written about.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Bob Cunnings <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Here's an interesting piece on K3 transmit audio processing:
>
> http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_speech_processing.htm
>
> where it is reported that "There's 31 milliseconds of processing delay
> in the K3's DSP stages between microphone input and monitor output..."
> using the setup described in the article. The date is 15 March 2009.
>
> Bob NW8L
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[Jim Brown-10]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 19:12:19 -0500, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

>Although 31 ms of delay was reported, that wasn't what the article was
>written about.

FWIW, 31 msec is a lot of delay by audio standards. I've seen reports of
half as much delay being bothersome to musicians listening to their own
voices in headphones in a recording studio.

A delay of 35-40 msec just about the limit of what is generally tolerable
to a performer on stage, and often happens when loudspeaker systems are
suspended high above a stage. That's ONE of the major functions of a stage
monitor (those speakers on the stage, or in-ear ear monitors) -- to
provide the performer their own voice with less delay than the main
system. Few of these systems have zero delay though -- 5-10 msec of
latency is typical of the DSP used in modern pro audio systems.

Bottom line -- at 31 msec, I can see why some are bothered by it and not
others. The perception of delay varies from one person to another, and
also depends on program material.

73,


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[Lu Romero - W4LT]

Interesting article!  Answers a lot of my questions about
the audio processing system.  Thank you so much for the
link!

31 miliseconds... Really?  Wow!

Do you guys consider this a problem?  

Sort of puts the average ATSC compression propagation delay
of roughly 6-10 seconds, depending on bit packing and
statistical multiplexer efficiency in the right context for
all of us, eh?

-lu-w4lt-
K3 #3192



Message: 18
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:38:19 -0700
From: Bob Cunnings <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Delay in monitor audio - it aint
there!
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID:
   
<[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Here's an interesting piece on K3 transmit audio processing:

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_speech_processing.htm

where it is reported that "There's 31 milliseconds of
processing delay
in the K3's DSP stages between microphone input and monitor
output..."
using the setup described in the article. The date is 15
March 2009.

Bob NW8L

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Lu Romero <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> To those of you who were complaining about the delay in
the
> K3 audio monitor chain, I am curious what you are hearing.
>
> After reading the thread, and playing around with the
radio
> for a few days critically listening for this issue, I dont
> hear a problem.
>
> Maybe its a matter of your listening through a sound card
or
> some other external device. ?Or maybe you have external
> digital processing after your microphone. ?However, with a
> microphone plugged in directly (OK, through a microHAM
> MicroKeyerII then into the K3) and my headphones plugged
in
> to the front panel headphone jack, I do not hear any
> discernable delay in the audio feed when listening to
myself
> in the audio monitor of the rig.
>
> And before I get flamed for not knowing what to listen
for,
> Im "learned" in audio delay issues... As a broadcaster, I
> understand audio delay and can see lip sync problems down
to

> around 2 video frames (just ask ABC and Fox TV Network
> Control centers, they probably curse me even today).
> Newspeople have complemented me on my attention to their
> audio delay problems in their IFB and ProChannel feeds for
> years (rare for them, because usually they only talk to
> engineers when things are broken or they want a free tape
> for their resume reel).
>
> Lu Romero - W4LT
> K3 #3192
>
>
>
>
>
>

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> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: [hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Barry Simpson]

Walt

It certainly is a problem for me and others I have corresponded with.

Hopefully Elecraft will rectify it so that we can hear ourselves in real
time.

Barry  VK2BJ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lu Romero
Sent: 22 January 2010 19:16
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Delay in monitor audio - it aint there!

Interesting article!  Answers a lot of my questions about
the audio processing system.  Thank you so much for the
link!

31 miliseconds... Really?  Wow!

Do you guys consider this a problem?  

Sort of puts the average ATSC compression propagation delay
of roughly 6-10 seconds, depending on bit packing and
statistical multiplexer efficiency in the right context for
all of us, eh?

-lu-w4lt-
K3 #3192




______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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[Lu Romero - W4LT]

Barry:

The name is Lu.  W4LT is my call sign.

I suspect you will have a choice... Hearing non processed audio in real
time, or hearing processed audio with a 31 milisecond delay.  The laws of
Physics are hard to bend...

-lu-

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Simpson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 5:50 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Delay in monitor audio - it aint there!

Walt

It certainly is a problem for me and others I have corresponded with.

Hopefully Elecraft will rectify it so that we can hear ourselves in real
time.

Barry  VK2BJ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lu Romero
Sent: 22 January 2010 19:16
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Delay in monitor audio - it aint there!

Interesting article!  Answers a lot of my questions about the audio
processing system.  Thank you so much for the link!

31 miliseconds... Really?  Wow!

Do you guys consider this a problem?  

Sort of puts the average ATSC compression propagation delay of roughly 6-10
seconds, depending on bit packing and statistical multiplexer efficiency in
the right context for all of us, eh?

-lu-w4lt-
K3 #3192






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