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For many years dynamic range and other receiver performance figures (see Sherwood) and digital “features” like NB, NR, APF, Notch etc got a lot of attention (which was good).
The transition from hardware to software opened a new world of possibilities. But …. Today, most of us are battling near-field man made noise instead of receiver overload. Reality tells us that this noise is not going to reduce the next decade or so. Receivers will outperform competitors if they enable noise reduction and improve S/N ratio. This will be a combi of hardware (antenna’s and receivers) and smart software solutions (algorithms etc.) Just wondering if during the K4 design this “chance” was considered and if so, how this was implemented ? 73, Evert PA2KW (waiting for the K4 kit) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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The short answer is "yes."
In the K4 it takes the form of distributed processing, including multiple high-speed FPGAs in the demodulation path, a new DSP that's twice as fast any we've used before, and virtually unlimited resources in our main processor. It's also a very modular radio. For example, if a higher-performance A-to-D converter becomes available in the future, we'll be able to offer an upgraded digital downconversion module. 73, Wayne N6KR > On Jan 24, 2021, at 8:35 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote: > > For many years dynamic range and other receiver performance figures (see Sherwood) and digital “features” like NB, NR, APF, Notch etc got a lot of attention (which was good). > > The transition from hardware to software opened a new world of possibilities. > > But …. > > Today, most of us are battling near-field man made noise instead of receiver overload. > > Reality tells us that this noise is not going to reduce the next decade or so. > > Receivers will outperform competitors if they enable noise reduction and improve S/N ratio. > > This will be a combi of hardware (antenna’s and receivers) and smart software solutions (algorithms etc.) > > > > Just wondering if during the K4 design this “chance” was considered and if so, how this was implemented ? > > > > 73, Evert PA2KW > > > > (waiting for the K4 kit) > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Evert Bakker (PA2KW)
Evert,
As one who suffers from such noise, I too look forward to such improvements. The K4 will have a “subtractive” noise reduction/noise blanking algorithm that essentially subtracts noise form a signal being copied. During the recent Zoom call, I was told it would be available in about 3 months. I think you can find a demonstration of this on YouTube somewhere. It is very impressive. 73, John WA1EAZ > On Jan 24, 2021, at 11:35 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote: > > For many years dynamic range and other receiver performance figures (see Sherwood) and digital “features” like NB, NR, APF, Notch etc got a lot of attention (which was good). > > The transition from hardware to software opened a new world of possibilities. > > But …. > > Today, most of us are battling near-field man made noise instead of receiver overload. > > Reality tells us that this noise is not going to reduce the next decade or so. > > Receivers will outperform competitors if they enable noise reduction and improve S/N ratio. > > This will be a combi of hardware (antenna’s and receivers) and smart software solutions (algorithms etc.) > > > > Just wondering if during the K4 design this “chance” was considered and if so, how this was implemented ? > > > > 73, Evert PA2KW > > > > (waiting for the K4 kit) > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
But wouldn’t a higher performance A/D converter also mean you’d have to bring forth more DSP computing power?
Because, whether you increase the sample rate or the number of bits per sample, it’s more data to process every second. Is there that much spare DSP computing power in the K4? Could you double the sample rate and still handle all the bits? (Or did we have some other definition of “higher-performance”?) > On Jan 24, 2021, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > > It's also a very modular radio. For example, if a higher-performance A-to-D converter becomes available in the future, we'll be able to offer an upgraded digital downconversion module. Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email] Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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> On Jan 24, 2021, at 9:59 AM, Bill Coleman <[hidden email]> wrote: > > But wouldn’t a higher performance A/D converter also mean you’d have to bring forth more DSP computing power? > > Is there that much spare DSP computing power in the K4? Could you double the sample rate and still handle all the bits? > > (Or did we have some other definition of “higher-performance”?) Yes: More bits than 16, more monotonicity in the LSBs, general improvement in SFDR, or lower internal noise. Adding more ADC bits does not require more DSP horsepower. The DSP is 32 bit floating point. Wayne N6KR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by stengrevics
I listened to Eric & Wayne proclamations , and did not hear either say
that the "subtractive " algorithms were going into the k4. sooner or later. I believe that that is what BHI uses .... bill On 1/24/2021 12:07 PM, John Stengrevics wrote: > Evert, > > As one who suffers from such noise, I too look forward to such improvements. > > The K4 will have a “subtractive” noise reduction/noise blanking algorithm that essentially subtracts noise form a signal being copied. During the recent Zoom call, I was told it would be available in about 3 months. > > I think you can find a demonstration of this on YouTube somewhere. It is very impressive. > > 73, > > John > WA1EAZ > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 11:35 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> For many years dynamic range and other receiver performance figures (see Sherwood) and digital “features” like NB, NR, APF, Notch etc got a lot of attention (which was good). >> >> The transition from hardware to software opened a new world of possibilities. >> >> But …. >> >> Today, most of us are battling near-field man made noise instead of receiver overload. >> >> Reality tells us that this noise is not going to reduce the next decade or so. >> >> Receivers will outperform competitors if they enable noise reduction and improve S/N ratio. >> >> This will be a combi of hardware (antenna’s and receivers) and smart software solutions (algorithms etc.) >> >> >> >> Just wondering if during the K4 design this “chance” was considered and if so, how this was implemented ? >> >> >> >> 73, Evert PA2KW >> >> >> >> (waiting for the K4 kit) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Yes, this is in the works.
73, Wayne N6KR > On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Bill Steffey NY9H <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I listened to Eric & Wayne proclamations , and did not hear either say that the "subtractive " algorithms were going into the k4. sooner or later. > > I believe that that is what BHI uses .... ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
> On Jan 24, 2021, at 1:33 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> (Or did we have some other definition of “higher-performance”?) > > Yes: More bits than 16, more monotonicity in the LSBs, general improvement in SFDR, or lower internal noise. > > Adding more ADC bits does not require more DSP horsepower. The DSP is 32 bit floating point. Well, that works up to 23-bits! (FP numbers have a 23-bit mantissa) Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email] Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Yes. Plenty of margin for the foreseeable future :)
Wayne > On Jan 25, 2021, at 5:15 AM, Bill Coleman <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 1:33 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> (Or did we have some other definition of “higher-performance”?) >> >> Yes: More bits than 16, more monotonicity in the LSBs, general improvement in SFDR, or lower internal noise. >> >> Adding more ADC bits does not require more DSP horsepower. The DSP is 32 bit floating point. > > Well, that works up to 23-bits! (FP numbers have a 23-bit mantissa) > > Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email] > Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com > Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" > -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill Coleman-2
IEEE Binary Floating Point assumes (except in case of a very
small, de-normalized number), that the high order bit of the mantissa is a one. With this assumption, it doesn't need to actually represent the one in memory. So, it has 8 bits of exponent, 1 bit of sign, and 24 bits of mantissa crammed into 32 bits. It should be able to handle the full precision of a 24 bit AtoD converter. 73 Bill AE6JV On 1/25/21 at 8:15 AM, [hidden email] (Bill Coleman) wrote: > >>On Jan 24, 2021, at 1:33 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> (Or did we have some other definition of “higher-performance”?) >> >>Yes: More bits than 16, more monotonicity in the LSBs, general improvement in SFDR, or lower >internal noise. >> >>Adding more ADC bits does not require more DSP horsepower. The DSP is 32 bit floating point. > >Well, that works up to 23-bits! (FP numbers have a 23-bit mantissa) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | There's nothing so clear | Periwinkle (408)348-7900 | as a design you haven't | 150 Rivermead Rd #235 www.pwpconsult.com | written down. - Dean Tribble| Peterborough, NH 03458 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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> On Jan 25, 2021, at 8:25 AM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote: > > IEEE Binary Floating Point assumes (except in case of a very small, de-normalized number), that the high order bit of the mantissa is a one. With this assumption, it doesn't need to actually represent the one in memory. So, it has 8 bits of exponent, 1 bit of sign, and 24 bits of mantissa crammed into 32 bits. It should be able to handle the full precision of a 24 bit AtoD converter. If only we had 24 bits at RF. "Reasonable cost" for an ADC that can sample at 120+ MHz gets you 16 bits at present. Wayne N6KR > > 73 Bill AE6JV > > On 1/25/21 at 8:15 AM, [hidden email] (Bill Coleman) wrote: > >> >>> On Jan 24, 2021, at 1:33 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>>> (Or did we have some other definition of “higher-performance”?) >>> >>> Yes: More bits than 16, more monotonicity in the LSBs, general improvement in SFDR, or lower >> internal noise. >>> >>> Adding more ADC bits does not require more DSP horsepower. The DSP is 32 bit floating point. >> >> Well, that works up to 23-bits! (FP numbers have a 23-bit mantissa) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bill Frantz | There's nothing so clear | Periwinkle > (408)348-7900 | as a design you haven't | 150 Rivermead Rd #235 > www.pwpconsult.com | written down. - Dean Tribble| Peterborough, NH 03458 > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill Frantz
On 2021-01-25 11:25:-0500, Bill Frantz wrote:
>IEEE Binary Floating Point assumes (except in case of a very small, de-normalized number), that the high order bit of the mantissa is a one. With this assumption, it doesn't need to actually represent the one in memory. So, it has 8 bits of exponent, 1 bit of sign, and 24 bits of mantissa crammed into 32 bits. It should be able to handle the full precision of a 24 bit AtoD converter. > >73 Bill AE6JV I designed a hardware-software system to create thermal ex-core neutron energy spectrum signatures in operating pressurized water nuclear plants. We used 32 bit integers as far as we could, even though the ADCs were only 12 bit, because speed was of the essence, and there was a lot of math going down. We used 32 v. 16 bit integers because the math took results into that range. I have not kept up with speeds in hardware, but imagine that the IEEE 754 in hardware must be pretty fast. ~R~ 72/73 de Rich NE1EE The Dusty Key On the banks of the Piscataqua ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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