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Distance from K2 for KAT100

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N8LP

Re: Type "N" connectors

I have several good tools... just had to respond to that opening ;-)

73,
Larry N8LP

Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Larry,
>
> Try Sharper Concepts <www.sharperconcepts.net>. You may have to buy
> two crimpers to cover all common coax sizes, but I found their prices
> less than a single tool with interchangable dies. I don't know if
> they are the cheapest, but I don't usually buy tools just because they
> are cheap, cheap tools are usually not up to the task that needs to be
> done, but some quality tools are moderately priced. Cheap tools are
> rarely any bargain.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Larry Phipps wrote:
>> Thanks Jack. That begs the question for us lazy types... which
>> supplier is cheapest?
>>
>> 73,
>> Larry N8LP
>>
>>
>> Jack Smith wrote:
>>> I would add that once you have a good crimp tool, such as the
>>> ratcheting type Don mentions, one can install crimp UHF connectors
>>> as well.
>>>
>>> I switched to crimp-type connectors quite a while ago and find them
>>> superior to solder-type connectors. Some crimp connectors are
>>> double-crimp, i.e., both the center pin and shield are crimped and
>>> others have a solder-type center pin and crimp shield.
>>>
>>> It's important that the crimp connector be the correct one for the
>>> coax type and that you use the correct die size, of course. Some
>>> crimp tools have interchangeable die sets and others are made with a
>>> non-removable die.
>>>
>>> If you decide to buy a crimp tool, shop around, as there is at least
>>> a 2:1 price variation from supplier-to-supplier for what seems to be
>>> the same tool.
>>>
>>> Jack K8ZOA
>
>

KJ3D-2

RE: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Sam Morgan

Hi Sam,

I wouldn't call anyone a liar either, but I remember an instructor at
Destroyer School (also Navy) telling us how to handle a misfire on 5 inch
guns. He said - and I'm not making this up - that if the barrel is hot, we
should NOT attempt to cool it off by hosing it down with cold water from the
fire hoses as that would drive the heat in and perhaps cook-off the misfired
round.

I'm sure this guy had not majored in physics, and probably had never studied
thermodynamics. He was simply parroting what his gunnery instructor had
told him.

That's how misconceptions take on an air of authenticity over time.

73, Tom

I

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sam Morgan
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:34 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Type "N" connectors

Sam Morgan wrote:
seems I have been corrected,
friction contact is better than soldered connections............

guess my Navy electronics teacher with his 20+ years of experience was a
liar, but I'll let ya'll tell him that, I wouldn't dare, I value my life
more than that.
--
GB & 73's
KA5OAI
Sam Morgan
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David Cutter

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Brian -2

I'm surprised to hear that. I understand it was the aircraft industry that
developed crimping as a more reliable way to make joints than soldering, at
least for regular wiring in aircraft.

Having seen a lot of bad soldering and assembly of PL259s done by my amateur
friends, I have a mind to buy a crimper set for the club so the members can
make quality connections to the plugs of their choice.

David
G3UNA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian " <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Type "N" connectors

> Hello all,
>
> Just my 2 cents. I don't own any type N connectors personally, but I do
> work on military aircraft and have never seen a UHF connector used.
> Crimping is not allowed; soldering is the only option for everything.
>
> 73
> Brian
> N1WNC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jack Smith
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:19 AM
> To: Larry Phipps
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Type "N" connectors
>
> I bought my tool and die sets from RF Parts http://www.rfparts.com/.
>
> I have seen what seems to be the same tool at about half the price
> searching around on the internet a while ago, but I can't be sure if it
> is exactly the same. RF Connection http://www.therfc.com/ also has an
> interchangable die tool that's more reasonablly priced, but again I
> can't be sure it's the same.
>
> It looks the same, but it's hard to judge a tool without having it in
> your hands. And Don is 100% right, a cheap tool is no bargain if it
> breaks or does not do the job right.
>
> I would look for a ratcheting type tool, as crimping RG213/214 size
> cable requires a lot of pressure and the ratcheting feature helps. I
> don't think even a ratcheting tool will work for larger cables, such as
> LMR600, where you need a lot of force. I believe those use a hydraulic
> crimper.
>
> I wound up with three die sets to cover the work I do.
>
> Jack
>
>
> Larry Phipps wrote:
>> Thanks Jack. That begs the question for us lazy types... which
>> supplier is cheapest?
>>
>> 73,
>> Larry N8LP
>>
>>
>> Jack Smith wrote:
>>> I would add that once you have a good crimp tool, such as the
>>> ratcheting type Don mentions, one can install crimp UHF connectors as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I switched to crimp-type connectors quite a while ago and find them
>>> superior to solder-type connectors. Some crimp connectors are
>>> double-crimp, i.e., both the center pin and shield are crimped and
>>> others have a solder-type center pin and crimp shield.
>>>
>>> It's important that the crimp connector be the correct one for the
>>> coax type and that you use the correct die size, of course. Some
>>> crimp tools have interchangeable die sets and others are made with a
>>> non-removable die.
>>>
>>> If you decide to buy a crimp tool, shop around, as there is at least
>>> a 2:1 price variation from supplier-to-supplier for what seems to be
>>> the same tool.
>>>
>>> Jack K8ZOA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> I too have come to the conclusion that working with BNC and N
>>>> connectors is actually a lot easier than UHF types.
>>>>
>>>> But I continually hear from hams that look at the K2 and point to
>>>> the BNC connector on the QRP unit then comment "THAT would HAVE to
>>>> be changed to a UHF type - that is all I use".
>>>>
>>>> Somehow there seems to be a prevalent opinion that BNC and N
>>>> connectors are harder to assemble than UHF, but I find exactly the
>>>> opposite to be true. While it IS easy to assemble a UHF connector
>>>> improperly and have it 'work' (after a fashion), improperly
>>>> assembled BNC/N/TNC/C connectors usually won't work at all. In the
>>>> past, I subscribed to the 'UHF is easier' camp until I discovered
>>>> that my only failing with BNC and N connectors was that I did not
>>>> pay enough attention to the coax stripping length instructions.
>>>>
>>>> I have finally invested in a set of ratchet crimpers so I can use
>>>> crimp style connectors - that makes the BNC/N/TNC/C connectors MUCH
>>>> easier to assemble than the UHF type - but one must still be careful
>>>> about cutting the coax correctly.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Don W3FPR
>>>>
>>>> John GM4SLV wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <hobby horse>
>>>>>
>>>>> But in terms of being a PITA to put the plugs on correctly, and mostly
>>>>> these days they seem made of soft cheese, I'd have a /real/ RF
>>>>> connector over a "UHF" one any day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Proper N/BNC/TNC/C types, with pressure sleave and "top hat"
>>>>> ferrule for
>>>>> under the braid are a joy to fit, requiring a knife, a pair of small
>>>>> sidecutters, a _small_ soldering iron for the centre pin only and a
>>>>> couple of small spanners to do up the clamp nut. No messing about with
>>>>> soldering guns, blow torches or whatever people use to try and make a
>>>>> decent fist of soldering the braid (or usually just relying on
>>>>> pressure
>>>>> and the mstical force of gravity to hold the braid in contact with the
>>>>> shell of the plug).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that nobody is going to notice a performance problem with
>>>>> "UHF" connectors at HF but they just feel wrong to me...
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't even know Elecraft used 259s on some of their products (only
>>>>> having a barefoot K2 and a K1) and it kinda surprises me. They use
>>>>> BNCs
>>>>> on the rigs...why not continue that to the PA? Even a BNC is adequate
>>>>> for the power levels involved and anyone with a K2 must be happy with
>>>>> working with BNCs already....
>>>>>
>>>>> </hobby horse>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John GM4SLV
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>>>>
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>>>
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Mike S-8

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Sam Morgan

You could let NASA argue with him.

GSFC-733-HARN-01, Rev C, July 2003, DESIGN AND MANUFACTURING STANDARD
for ELECTRICAL HARNESSES (GFSC is Goddard Space Flight Center) says:

"4.20 Conductor terminations- The preferred method of terminating
conductors is with a crimp termination. However, where necessary,
solder terminations are acceptable."

At 10:34 AM 4/21/2007, Sam Morgan wrote...

>Sam Morgan wrote:
>seems I have been corrected,
>friction contact is better than soldered connections............
>
>guess my Navy electronics teacher with his 20+ years of experience was
>a liar,
>but I'll let ya'll tell him that, I wouldn't dare,
>I value my life more than that.
>--
>GB & 73's
>KA5OAI
>Sam Morgan
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Jack Smith-6

Re: Type "N" connectors

Also, MIL-C-39012 has many qualified N crimp connectors.
http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Downloads/MilSpec/Docs/MIL-PRF-39012/prf39012ss1.pdf
for your reading pleasure.

Further these crimp RF connectors appear to be qualified for use on the
International Space Station from what I can tell (lots of reference
links to follow).

As I said in the initial post, you must use the correct tool and
connector and if you do it properly the result will be a high quality
connection.

And, it isn't a friction fit -- it's actually closer to cold welding.

Jack

Mike S wrote:

> You could let NASA argue with him.
>
> GSFC-733-HARN-01, Rev C, July 2003, DESIGN AND MANUFACTURING STANDARD
> for ELECTRICAL HARNESSES (GFSC is Goddard Space Flight Center) says:
>
> "4.20 Conductor terminations- The preferred method of terminating
> conductors is with a crimp termination. However, where necessary,
> solder terminations are acceptable."
>
>
> At 10:34 AM 4/21/2007, Sam Morgan wrote...
>> Sam Morgan wrote:
>> seems I have been corrected,
>> friction contact is better than soldered connections............
>>
>> guess my Navy electronics teacher with his 20+ years of experience
>> was a liar,
>> but I'll let ya'll tell him that, I wouldn't dare,
>> I value my life more than that.
>> --
>> GB & 73's
>> KA5OAI
>> Sam Morgan
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Don Wilhelm-3

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Brian -2

Brian,

Then there must be a difference between original manufacture and repair
for those connections. The prior information I have from NASA and for
avionics applications is that crimping is the preferred method of
fastening. The only reason I can think of to vary from that in the
field is that the proper tools may not be universally available.

As has been pointed out, a proper crimped connection requires the proper
tool and connectors designed to be used with those tools. Vary either
piece of the equation and you end up with an unreliable connection. You
can take some shortcuts with soldering, but if you crimp, make certain
all the elements are correct.

For instance, I do not crimp my Anderson PowerPole connections - because
I do not have the correct tool - I have tried the low-priced model, and
I have experienced several connector failures and have gone back to
soldering them.

73,
Don W3FPR

Brian wrote:

John GM4SLV

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Jack Smith-6

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:06:08 -0400
Jack Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

I've learned a lot today about crimping connectors! I might have to
re-think my opinion, but then that's what make this a good group to be
involved with. I have a tool and some dies at work, perhaps I will make
up some crimped leads and some soldered leads and compare them!

I still find it odd that the KPA100 has SO239s though...

Cheers,

John

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N2EY

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Ken Kopp

In a message dated 4/21/07 10:56:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:

> I understand it was the aircraft industry that
> developed crimping as a more reliable way to make joints than soldering, at
> least for regular wiring in aircraft.
>

In the railroad signal industry, soldering has been phased out for
connections other than those in electronic assemblies. Crimping and clamping are the
only accepted methods for field-made connections.

One reason is time - crimped connections are faster. Another is the wicking
effect when stranded wire is soldered.

73 de Jim, N2EY

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James C. Hall, MD-2

RE: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3

Don, et al:

What a great thread ! I have only experience with crimping BNC and SMA
connectors and, strangely enough, LMR-600. Yep, I borrowed the crimping tool
for LMR-600 which is outrageously expensive from a cell telephone outfit
here in town. The owner is a ham friend of mine and he gave me an
N-connector to go on my long run on LMR-600. It has worked flawlessly.

Don, I use the correct crimp tool (I got mine from West Mountain Radio) for
Power-Poles and it works great. Sometimes I will both crimp and solder them.

I've never crimped PL-259's or N connectors but, brother, would that have
saved some time around here !! HI I'll check into this.

73, Jamie
WB4YDL

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:22 AM
To: Brian
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Type "N" connectors

Brian,

Then there must be a difference between original manufacture and repair
for those connections. The prior information I have from NASA and for
avionics applications is that crimping is the preferred method of
fastening. The only reason I can think of to vary from that in the
field is that the proper tools may not be universally available.

As has been pointed out, a proper crimped connection requires the proper
tool and connectors designed to be used with those tools. Vary either
piece of the equation and you end up with an unreliable connection. You
can take some shortcuts with soldering, but if you crimp, make certain
all the elements are correct.

For instance, I do not crimp my Anderson PowerPole connections - because
I do not have the correct tool - I have tried the low-priced model, and
I have experienced several connector failures and have gone back to
soldering them.

73,
Don W3FPR

Brian wrote:

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Phil Kane-2

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by John GM4SLV

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:13:40 +0100, John GM4SLV wrote:

>No messing about with
>soldering guns, blow torches or whatever people use to try and make a
>decent fist of soldering the braid (or usually just relying on pressure
>and the mstical force of gravity to hold the braid in contact with the
>shell of the plug).

I've been spoiled over the years with making crimped BNC
connectors (both pin and shield) but I no longer have access
to that.

About a year ago there appeared a "New Product" listing in QST
for a right proper PL-259 crimper requiring only soldering the
center conductor. I haven't bought one (yet) but it did look
interesting.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

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Phil Kane-2

RE: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Brian -2

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:31:36 -0500, Brian wrote:

>Just my 2 cents. I don't own any type N connectors personally,
>but I do work on military aircraft and have never seen a UHF
>connector used. Crimping is not allowed; soldering is the only
>option for everything.

That's odd. When I worked on the fire control systems of USN
carrier-based aircraft at the Douglas Aircraft factory in the
mid-1950s only MIL-spec crimped connections were allowed.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

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Phil Kane-2

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by David Cutter

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 15:55:19 +0100, David Cutter wrote:

>Having seen a lot of bad soldering and assembly of PL259s done
>by my amateur friends, I have a mind to buy a crimper set for the
>club so the members can make quality connections to the plugs of
>their choice.

Excellent Idea! Our ARES/RACES sponsor (Washington County
Emergency Services) bought us a MFJ antenna analyzer and the
availability of it has worked out very well.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

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Phil Kane-2

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:21:37 -0400, Don Wilhelm wrote:

>For instance, I do not crimp my Anderson PowerPole connections -
>because I do not have the correct tool - I have tried the
>low-priced model, and I have experienced several connector
>failures and have gone back to soldering them.

After using the non-ratcheted "crimper" I felt the same way. I
finally went to the ratchet crimper marketed by West Mountain
and have never had a failure. Miscrimps, yes, because with my
limited close-up eyesight it's not that easy to make sure that
the pin is in the slot properly (I work by feel).

As we've all said - the proper tool. May I add - the proper
procedure as well.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

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Brett gazdzinski-2

RE: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by John GM4SLV

We use crimp only at work.
Loads of BNC connectors on 45 mb DS3 cables, they
get abused and never seem to fail.

We have a very expensive amphenol tool that crimps
the shield and center pins.

We also crimp the 48 volt power wires, 200 amp and so on,
very special tools for that, and the wire has to be correct,
they pulled out all the old welding cable and put in stuff
that is really hard to work with, hard and inflexible, but I
suppose it holds the crimps well.

I like solder, and its usually much cheaper than a good tool
and all the dies, but crimping done right is very good.

When some think of crimping, they think of spade lugs
with a cheap hand tool crimp...you know, the ones the wires
pull right out of...

Brett
N2DTS

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John GM4SLV
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 1:58 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Type "N" connectors
>
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:06:08 -0400
> Jack Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Also, MIL-C-39012 has many qualified N crimp connectors.
> >
> http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Downloads/MilSpec/Docs/MIL-PRF-39012/p
> rf39012ss1.pdf
> > for your reading pleasure.
> >
> >
> > Further these crimp RF connectors appear to be qualified for use on
> > the International Space Station from what I can tell (lots of
> > reference links to follow).
> >
> > As I said in the initial post, you must use the correct tool and
> > connector and if you do it properly the result will be a
> high quality
> > connection.
> >
> > And, it isn't a friction fit -- it's actually closer to
> cold welding.
> >
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
>
> I've learned a lot today about crimping connectors! I might have to
> re-think my opinion, but then that's what make this a good group to be
> involved with. I have a tool and some dies at work, perhaps I
> will make
> up some crimped leads and some soldered leads and compare them!
>
> I still find it odd that the KPA100 has SO239s though...
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

Martin-232

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Ken Kopp

If you need to properly solder a UHF-Plug to a cable, you might consider
a plug of this type:

http://www.steckerprofi-shop.com/themes/kategorie/index.php?id=55&katId=64&parentId=&submenue=0&action=detail&was=&wo=&vonEg=0&wievielEintraege=12

Pretty much the same as a N-type connector.

Martin

DM4iM
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dave.wilburn

Re: Type "N" connectors

In reply to this post by Jack Smith-6

The telecommunications has been crimping, in some cases (such as power
and ground connections) for a long time, and in others (such as BNC's
for DS3's) for the last 5 years or so. Incidentally, just about all the
T1's/DS1's in this country (at one time) were all wire wrapped.

Now I think we should get a discussion going about stitching cabling vs.
tie wrapping. (Just joking, a little flame bait left lying around)

David Wilburn
[hidden email]
K4DGW
K2 #5982

Jack Smith wrote:

> Also, MIL-C-39012 has many qualified N crimp connectors.
> http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Downloads/MilSpec/Docs/MIL-PRF-39012/prf39012ss1.pdf
> for your reading pleasure.
>
>
> Further these crimp RF connectors appear to be qualified for use on the
> International Space Station from what I can tell (lots of reference
> links to follow).
>
> As I said in the initial post, you must use the correct tool and
> connector and if you do it properly the result will be a high quality
> connection.
>
> And, it isn't a friction fit -- it's actually closer to cold welding.
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> Mike S wrote:
>> You could let NASA argue with him.
>>
>> GSFC-733-HARN-01, Rev C, July 2003, DESIGN AND MANUFACTURING STANDARD
>> for ELECTRICAL HARNESSES (GFSC is Goddard Space Flight Center) says:
>>
>> "4.20 Conductor terminations- The preferred method of terminating
>> conductors is with a crimp termination. However, where necessary,
>> solder terminations are acceptable."
>>
>>
>> At 10:34 AM 4/21/2007, Sam Morgan wrote...
>>> Sam Morgan wrote:
>>> seems I have been corrected,
>>> friction contact is better than soldered connections............
>>>
>>> guess my Navy electronics teacher with his 20+ years of experience
>>> was a liar,
>>> but I'll let ya'll tell him that, I wouldn't dare,
>>> I value my life more than that.
>>> --
>>> GB & 73's
>>> KA5OAI
>>> Sam Morgan
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>>
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srife

Re: Type "N" connectors

The circuits that are not on fiber still are wire wrapped David. If it leaves the office on copper it is either wire wrapped or soldered at some point. The phone company here abandoned soldering a long time ago. We still have some frames that are solder lug equipped, but most have been converted to wire wrap.

Stan Rife
Houston, TX
W5EWA
K2 S/N 4216

David Wilburn <[hidden email]> wrote:
The telecommunications has been crimping, in some cases (such as power
and ground connections) for a long time, and in others (such as BNC's
for DS3's) for the last 5 years or so. Incidentally, just about all the
T1's/DS1's in this country (at one time) were all wire wrapped.

Now I think we should get a discussion going about stitching cabling vs.
tie wrapping. (Just joking, a little flame bait left lying around)

David Wilburn
[hidden email]
K4DGW
K2 #5982

Jack Smith wrote: