Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

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Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

VernonJ
My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with
the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to
protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts
at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do
this? Thanks.



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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

donovanf
60 feet of antenna separation does not provide diversity capability.
Diversity depends on independent fading of received signals,
accomplished by at least one wavelength of spacing between two
identically polarized antennas or by two antennas with opposite
polarization. More than one wavelength of spacing will provide
even better diversity performance.


One wavelength of spacing requires 540 feet of spacing,
almost ten times more what you're proposing to use.


73
Frank
W3LPL





----- Original Message -----

From: "VernonJ" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:27:31 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with
the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to
protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts
at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do
this? Thanks.



--
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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

Don Wilhelm
In reply to this post by VernonJ
Vernon,

Give it a try, a lot will depend on the relative orientation of the loop
and your transmit antenna (in other words, no one can predict for you).

If you hear the COR in the subRX begin to click, you will know that
there is too much pickup on the RX antenna.

There are several protective devices available in the ham marketplace.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/28/2020 2:27 PM, VernonJ wrote:
> My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with
> the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
> Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to
> protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts
> at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do
> this? Thanks.
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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

donovanf
In reply to this post by donovanf
I should have clarified 540 feet of separation on 160 meters,
much less on higher bands (e.g. 280 feet on 80, 140 feet on 40)


73
Frank
W3LPL

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:38:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

60 feet of antenna separation does not provide diversity capability.
Diversity depends on independent fading of received signals,
accomplished by at least one wavelength of spacing between two
identically polarized antennas or by two antennas with opposite
polarization. More than one wavelength of spacing will provide
even better diversity performance.


One wavelength of spacing requires 540 feet of spacing,
almost ten times more what you're proposing to use.


73
Frank
W3LPL





----- Original Message -----

From: "VernonJ" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:27:31 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with
the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to
protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts
at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do
this? Thanks.



--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ 
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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

Conrad PA5Y
In reply to this post by VernonJ
If you want to be absolutely certain you could add an external relay driven from the key output. If you use this port to key you PA then you can just use a Y splitter. There are hundreds of suitable relays on eBay. Configure so that on TX the sub RX is terminated with 50 ohms. Typically relays such as Dow Key 401 series will give well over 100dB isolation on HF through 6m, they say 85dB but it's a lot more on all the ones I have measured.

For example

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dow-Key-401-175-RF-Microwave-Switch-15V-SMA-NSN-5985-01-320-1388/143186092545

Regards

Conrad PA5Y


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of VernonJ
Sent: 28 January 2020 20:28
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do this? Thanks.



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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

Don Wilhelm
Such a relay is a workable solution.
BUT be aware that the K3 KEYOUT only provides a ground.  The relay coil
must be connected to a voltage source.  Since you are also using an
amplifier on the KEYOUT line, you will have to carefully match the
voltage of the relay and its voltage supply with the voltage provided in
the amplifier - if you do not, there will be current flow between the
amplifier and your relay's power source.

That current flow can be prevented by the use of a series diode in each
leg of the "Y".  If the diodes are used, there is not as great a need
for matching the voltages.

So things are a bit more involved than just using a "Y" cable.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/28/2020 5:31 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote:

> If you want to be absolutely certain you could add an external relay driven from the key output. If you use this port to key you PA then you can just use a Y splitter. There are hundreds of suitable relays on eBay. Configure so that on TX the sub RX is terminated with 50 ohms. Typically relays such as Dow Key 401 series will give well over 100dB isolation on HF through 6m, they say 85dB but it's a lot more on all the ones I have measured.
>
> For example
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dow-Key-401-175-RF-Microwave-Switch-15V-SMA-NSN-5985-01-320-1388/143186092545
>
> Regards
>
> Conrad PA5Y
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of VernonJ
> Sent: 28 January 2020 20:28
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive
>
> My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
> Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do this? Thanks.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

Conrad PA5Y
Good advice Don. I should have mentioned that.  

73

Conrad PA5Y

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: 29 January 2020 00:12
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

Such a relay is a workable solution.
BUT be aware that the K3 KEYOUT only provides a ground.  The relay coil must be connected to a voltage source.  Since you are also using an amplifier on the KEYOUT line, you will have to carefully match the voltage of the relay and its voltage supply with the voltage provided in the amplifier - if you do not, there will be current flow between the amplifier and your relay's power source.

That current flow can be prevented by the use of a series diode in each leg of the "Y".  If the diodes are used, there is not as great a need for matching the voltages.

So things are a bit more involved than just using a "Y" cable.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/28/2020 5:31 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote:

> If you want to be absolutely certain you could add an external relay driven from the key output. If you use this port to key you PA then you can just use a Y splitter. There are hundreds of suitable relays on eBay. Configure so that on TX the sub RX is terminated with 50 ohms. Typically relays such as Dow Key 401 series will give well over 100dB isolation on HF through 6m, they say 85dB but it's a lot more on all the ones I have measured.
>
> For example
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dow-Key-401-175-RF-Microwave-Switch-15V-SMA-N
> SN-5985-01-320-1388/143186092545
>
> Regards
>
> Conrad PA5Y
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of VernonJ
> Sent: 28 January 2020 20:28
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity
> receive
>
> My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
> Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do this? Thanks.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

Barry LaZar
In reply to this post by donovanf
Frank,
     Not all of us have your backyard, like me. Using two different
polarization will get you there also, And, cross polarization will
enhance decoupling between the antennas.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 1/28/2020 2:41:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity
receive

>I should have clarified 540 feet of separation on 160 meters,
>much less on higher bands (e.g. 280 feet on 80, 140 feet on 40)
>
>
>73
>Frank
>W3LPL
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: [hidden email]
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:38:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive
>
>60 feet of antenna separation does not provide diversity capability.
>Diversity depends on independent fading of received signals,
>accomplished by at least one wavelength of spacing between two
>identically polarized antennas or by two antennas with opposite
>polarization. More than one wavelength of spacing will provide
>even better diversity performance.
>
>
>One wavelength of spacing requires 540 feet of spacing,
>almost ten times more what you're proposing to use.
>
>
>73
>Frank
>W3LPL
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: "VernonJ" <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:27:31 PM
>Subject: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive
>
>My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with
>the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
>Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to
>protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts
>at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do
>this? Thanks.
>
>
>
>--
>Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

Vic Rosenthal
I notice a big increase in intelligibility of cw signals in conditions of QSB and even QRN with diversity on 40 through 10 meters (well, at least I have dim memories of 15/12/10 m).
My antennas are only about 10m apart, but one is a horizontal dipole and the other is a vertically polarized small loop (a “pixel loop”, now made by DX Engineering). The dipole is also about 5m higher than the loop.

Victor 4X6GP

> On 29 Jan 2020, at 2:09, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Frank,
>    Not all of us have your backyard, like me. Using two different polarization will get you there also, And, cross polarization will enhance decoupling between the antennas.
>
> 73,
> Barry
> K3NDM
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: 1/28/2020 2:41:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive
>
>> I should have clarified 540 feet of separation on 160 meters,
>> much less on higher bands (e.g. 280 feet on 80, 140 feet on 40)
>>
>>
>> 73
>> Frank
>> W3LPL
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:38:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive
>>
>> 60 feet of antenna separation does not provide diversity capability.
>> Diversity depends on independent fading of received signals,
>> accomplished by at least one wavelength of spacing between two
>> identically polarized antennas or by two antennas with opposite
>> polarization. More than one wavelength of spacing will provide
>> even better diversity performance.
>>
>>
>> One wavelength of spacing requires 540 feet of spacing,
>> almost ten times more what you're proposing to use.
>>
>>
>> 73
>> Frank
>> W3LPL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: "VernonJ" <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:27:31 PM
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive
>>
>> My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with
>> the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.
>> Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to
>> protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts
>> at some point. If I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do
>> this? Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
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>
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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

Edward H Russell
I also get excellent results pairing a 39’ vertical with resonant dipoles and inverted vee’s spread around the yard not far away. Because of the close proximity and QRO, I have a RF protector/limiter on the vertical.

 

Ed / w2rf

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Vic Rosenthal
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:29 AM
To: Barry <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

 

I notice a big increase in intelligibility of cw signals in conditions of QSB and even QRN with diversity on 40 through 10 meters (well, at least I have dim memories of 15/12/10 m).

My antennas are only about 10m apart, but one is a horizontal dipole and the other is a vertically polarized small loop (a “pixel loop”, now made by DX Engineering). The dipole is also about 5m higher than the loop.

 

Victor 4X6GP

 

> On 29 Jan 2020, at 2:09, Barry < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> wrote:

>

> Frank,

>    Not all of us have your backyard, like me. Using two different polarization will get you there also, And, cross polarization will enhance decoupling between the antennas.

>

> 73,

> Barry

> K3NDM

>

> ------ Original Message ------

> From:  <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

> To:  <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

> Sent: 1/28/2020 2:41:40 PM

> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity

> receive

>

>> I should have clarified 540 feet of separation on 160 meters, much

>> less on higher bands (e.g. 280 feet on 80, 140 feet on 40)

>>

>>

>> 73

>> Frank

>> W3LPL

>>

>> ----- Original Message -----

>>

>> From:  <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

>> To:  <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

>> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:38:07 PM

>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity

>> receive

>>

>> 60 feet of antenna separation does not provide diversity capability.

>> Diversity depends on independent fading of received signals,

>> accomplished by at least one wavelength of spacing between two

>> identically polarized antennas or by two antennas with opposite

>> polarization. More than one wavelength of spacing will provide even

>> better diversity performance.

>>

>>

>> One wavelength of spacing requires 540 feet of spacing, almost ten

>> times more what you're proposing to use.

>>

>>

>> 73

>> Frank

>> W3LPL

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> ----- Original Message -----

>>

>> From: "VernonJ" < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]>

>> To:  <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

>> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:27:31 PM

>> Subject: [Elecraft] Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity

>> receive

>>

>> My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity

>> receive with the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop.

>> Is there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection

>> to protect the Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run

>> 500 watts at some point. If I need additional isolation and

>> protection, how would I do this? Thanks.

>>

>>

>>

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Re: Dual Receivers 2 different antennas Diversity receive

John K9UWA-2
In reply to this post by VernonJ
You could use a device such as the KD9SV  FES "short for Front End Saver" The
Device removes and grounds the receive antenna input during transmit. Yes it is
fast enough for QSK. You can also run your PTT line to your amplifier through this
device. If the Device fails to work that prevents the amplifier from being keyed.
Contact Info for Gary KD9SV  [hidden email]

John k9uwa


On 28 Jan 2020 at 12:27, VernonJ wrote:

> My K3S has Main and Sub receivers. I would like to use Diversity receive with
> the Main using the transmit antenna, and my Sub using a small receive loop. Is
> there sufficient isolation on the Receive Only antenna connection to protect the
> Sub? Antennas are 60 feet apart, and I intend to run 500 watts at some point. If
> I need additional isolation and protection, how would I do this? Thanks.

John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF
Antique Radio Restorations
[hidden email]
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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