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David Ahrendts

ESSB

Experimented yesterday for a few minutes with ESSB (carefully avoiding weekend contesters), and it raised a fundamental question: As bandwidth is broadened, is effective radiated power diluted? In other words, will 500 watts with a 2.6MHz signal be more effective (stronger, punchier, more DBs transmitted) than 500 watts with a 4MHz ESSB signal?

David Ahrendts, KC0XT

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: ESSB

I think you meant KHz, not MHz, David :-)

My thinking is that the narrower "communications
quality" signal would be more effective.

How did you find 4KHz with none of those
contesters on it? Incredible accomplishment!

73, Phil W7OX

On 11/17/14 10:22 AM, David Ahrendts wrote:
> Experimented yesterday for a few minutes with ESSB (carefully avoiding weekend contesters), and it raised a fundamental question: As bandwidth is broadened, is effective radiated power diluted? In other words, will 500 watts with a 2.6MHz signal be more effective (stronger, punchier, more DBs transmitted) than 500 watts with a 4MHz ESSB signal?
>
> David Ahrendts, KC0XT
>
>
>
> David Ahrendts [hidden email]

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David Ahrendts

Re: ESSB

Yes, KHz, of course. Didn’t have the courage to consume 4KHz :—) but I did answer the Elecraft net call at 1800z at 3KHz.

> On Nov 17, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think you meant KHz, not MHz, David :-)
>
> My thinking is that the narrower "communications quality" signal would be more effective.
>
> How did you find 4KHz with none of those contesters on it? Incredible accomplishment!
>
> 73, Phil W7OX
>
> On 11/17/14 10:22 AM, David Ahrendts wrote:
>> Experimented yesterday for a few minutes with ESSB (carefully avoiding weekend contesters), and it raised a fundamental question: As bandwidth is broadened, is effective radiated power diluted? In other words, will 500 watts with a 2.6MHz signal be more effective (stronger, punchier, more DBs transmitted) than 500 watts with a 4MHz ESSB signal?
>>
>> David Ahrendts, KC0XT
>>
>>
>>
>> David Ahrendts [hidden email]
>
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David Ahrendts [hidden email]

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Jim Brown-10

Re: ESSB

In reply to this post by David Ahrendts

On Mon,11/17/2014 10:22 AM, David Ahrendts wrote:
> In other words, will 500 watts with a 2.6MHz signal be more effective (stronger, punchier, more DBs transmitted) than 500 watts with a 4MHz ESSB signal?

Change those MHz to kHz. :)

The answer is "YES, MUCH stronger and punchier, more dB transmitted"
with limited bandwidth. The difference is roughly one S-unit. A big part
of the difference comes not from the high end, but from the low end. For
best communications quality, go to TXEQ and set the three lowest bands
for maximum cut, set the fourth band (400 Hz) to -6dB cut, and get
signal reports. For most ham mics and voices, leave the rest of the
bands flat. For mics or voices that sound a bit dull or deep, boost the
top two bands by 3-6 dB. Professional mics will require more boost on
the high end.

We can also increase our talk power by using the compression built into
the K3. Set it so that you see no more than 6-10 dB compression on
peaks, using the compression display.

73, Jim K9YC

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alorona

Re: ESSB

In reply to this post by David Ahrendts

Your intuition is correct, David. The same power in a narrower bandwidth results in a higher spectral power density -- more watts per Hertz, so to speak. Not to mention that at the receiving end, the operator can narrow his bandwidth which lowers the noise floor that he hears underneath you.

Al W6LX

_________

>>> As bandwidth is broadened, is effective radiated power diluted?
>>>
>>> David Ahrendts, KC0XT
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David Ahrendts

Re: ESSB

Well put, Al. Thank you. More watts per Hertz!

> On Nov 17, 2014, at 10:48 AM, Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Your intuition is correct, David. The same power in a narrower bandwidth results in a higher spectral power density -- more watts per Hertz, so to speak. Not to mention that at the receiving end, the operator can narrow his bandwidth which lowers the noise floor that he hears underneath you.
>
> Al W6LX
>
>
> _________
>
>>>> As bandwidth is broadened, is effective radiated power diluted?
>>>>
>>>> David Ahrendts, KC0XT
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alorona

Re: ESSB

In reply to this post by David Ahrendts

I'm glad K9YC answered your question. If you heard Jim's signal during the SS this weekend then you got to hear what the shaping he is describing sounded like. His audio was very piercing but clean. It's not what I would want to hear during a long ragchew with him, but his purpose was to project his intelligibility across 40 meters for the purpose of a 30-second contact.

Another way to look at this is that our ear is most sensitive to frequencies around 2 kHz (roughly) and so you really want to put as much of your power in that region as you can. In this way, you're using the response of the other op's ear to your advantage.

To further paraphrase what Jim said, when it comes to compression, "A little is good, but more is not better," as evidenced by so many shockingly bad signals this weekend. I wish someone would undertake a project to send contesters recordings of themselves. I happened to be listening when a station with especially egregious audio called K9YC, who gave the op a quick but honest report at the end of his exchange. Who knows if that station will heed the advice for the next contest.

Al W6LX
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: ESSB

> Another way to look at this is that our ear is most sensitive to
> frequencies around 2 kHz (roughly) and so you really want to put as
> much of your power in that region as you can. In this way, you're
> using the response of the other op's ear to your advantage.

Not entirely ... equal loudness curves show peak sensitivity around
3 KHz independent of sound pressure levels.

Human voice has very little energy between 700 Hz and 1200 Hz with most
of the power (fundamental energy from the vocal chords) between 200 and
500 Hz with sibilance and unvoiced energy (sounds made with the tongue,
teeth and lips) that contribute to "definition" (consonants) in the
1400-4000+ Hz range. The ear needs a balance (although not 1:1
relationship) between lows and highs for best intelligibility.

While I do not try for maximum "punch" like K9YC, what he suggests is a
good starting point. I don't completely roll off 200 Hz but set it to
about -6dB. I also set 800 Hz to -6 or -10 dB which helps eliminate
background noise. Then I use a 3 dB/octave rise at the high end: +3 at
1600, +5 at 3400 and +6 at 3200. With the K3 compression engaged, the
rise means the highs will be "more dense" (or clipped harder). They
will not be any louder than the lows but they will be more pronounced
through the noise and *will* contribute to enhanced intelligibility
without sounding "rough," "muddy", "tinny" or "narrow".

Excessive low frequency response generally causes voices to be muddy.
Excessive high frequency energy with too little low frequency response
causes voices to sound "tinny" and too much mid-range (excessive low
and high cut) causes voices to sound hollow.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-11-17 2:05 PM, Al Lorona wrote:

> I'm glad K9YC answered your question. If you heard Jim's signal
> during the SS this weekend then you got to hear what the shaping he
> is describing sounded like. His audio was very piercing but clean.
> It's not what I would want to hear during a long ragchew with him,
> but his purpose was to project his intelligibility across 40 meters
> for the purpose of a 30-second contact.
>
> Another way to look at this is that our ear is most sensitive to
> frequencies around 2 kHz (roughly) and so you really want to put as
> much of your power in that region as you can. In this way, you're
> using the response of the other op's ear to your advantage.
>
> To further paraphrase what Jim said, when it comes to compression, "A
> little is good, but more is not better," as evidenced by so many
> shockingly bad signals this weekend. I wish someone would undertake a
> project to send contesters recordings of themselves. I happened to be
> listening when a station with especially egregious audio called K9YC,
> who gave the op a quick but honest report at the end of his exchange.
> Who knows if that station will heed the advice for the next contest.
>
> Al W6LX
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: ESSB

On 11/17/14 12:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> > Another way to look at this is that our ear is
> most sensitive to
> > frequencies around 2 kHz (roughly) and so you
> really want to put as
> > much of your power in that region as you can.
> In this way, you're
> > using the response of the other op's ear to
> your advantage.
>
> Not entirely ... equal loudness curves show peak
> sensitivity around
> 3 KHz independent of sound pressure levels.
>
> Human voice has very little energy between 700
> Hz and 1200 Hz with most
> of the power (fundamental energy from the vocal
> chords) between 200 and
> 500 Hz with sibilance and unvoiced energy
> (sounds made with the tongue,
> teeth and lips) that contribute to "definition"
> (consonants) in the
> 1400-4000+ Hz range. The ear needs a balance
> (although not 1:1
> relationship) between lows and highs for best
> intelligibility.

Yes, very true as I discovered recently. I added a
hearing aid to my only functional ear a week ago
and found not only improved volume but improved
freq response (in retrospect, not a surprise!).
Now folks with high, "squeaky" voices are much
more intelligible than they were before.

The downside is using headphones: I've preferred
an Apple ear bud and have quite a collection. So
I'm experimenting with new headphones vs. removing
the hearing aid. I tried one over the ear type,
well reviewed, that resulted in a sequence of
chimes in the hearing aid -- not a good sign.

So now I can hear ESSB better -- but I still don't
like appreciate it: Big hog of bandwidth, IMO. And
it's so easily recognizable on my P3 or PX3.

73, Phil W7OX
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Grant Youngman

Re: ESSB

> but I still don't like appreciate it: Big hog of bandwidth, IMO. And it's so easily recognizable on my P3 or PX3.

Of course, ESSB is not appropriate to contest environments or crowded bands in general. (Although contesting in the aggregate is a far worse band hog than 1 or 2 ESSB QSOs).

On the other hand, depending on times and frequencies, large segments of the amateur bands are vast unoccupied wastelands. So to argue (as many do) that ESSB wastes bandwidth .. well, bandwidth isn’t quite like the non-renewable resources we’re quite happy to waste ;)

I’d far rather have a long afternoon QSO with folks that don’t sound like parakeets. ESSB has it’s place, just like every other mode. The ESSB on the K3 would be better called “better sounding SSB”, compared to what the hard core ESSB groups like to run. It’s more akin to the sound of vintage phasing rigs (which sound very good generally). And it IS better sounding SSB — provided the guy on the other end isn’t stuck with a 2.1 KHz mech filter or some other restrictive bandwidth. Certainly it’s less effective in working stations close to the noise level, but that isn’t what ESSB is about anyway.

Grant NQ5T

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: ESSB

> ESSB has it’s place, just like every other mode.

Not every mode has a place on every band.

ESSB has no place on any band where wideband FM is not permitted due
to the bandwidth. Amateur radio is a communications service, not a
broadcast service and 2.7 KHz is all that is necessary for clean SSB
with reasonable fidelity ... audio that does no sound tinny, muddy or
hollow. The only thing necessary is some appropriate audio shaping,
equalization and processing.

> I’d far rather have a long afternoon QSO with folks that don’t sound
> like parakeets.

The ESSB boys that insist on ruler flat audio response from 25 Hz
to 5 KHz (or more) with both bass and treble boost to accomplish
that flat RF mask are often more difficult to tune and listen to
than a well equalized and properly processed standard 2.6 to 2.8 KHz
SSB signal due to the non-flat characteristics of the ionosphere.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-11-17 4:33 PM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:

>
>> but I still don't like appreciate it: Big hog of bandwidth, IMO. And it's so easily recognizable on my P3 or PX3.
>
> Of course, ESSB is not appropriate to contest environments or crowded bands in general. (Although contesting in the aggregate is a far worse band hog than 1 or 2 ESSB QSOs).
>
> On the other hand, depending on times and frequencies, large segments of the amateur bands are vast unoccupied wastelands. So to argue (as many do) that ESSB wastes bandwidth .. well, bandwidth isn’t quite like the non-renewable resources we’re quite happy to waste ;)
>
> I’d far rather have a long afternoon QSO with folks that don’t sound like parakeets. ESSB has it’s place, just like every other mode. The ESSB on the K3 would be better called “better sounding SSB”, compared to what the hard core ESSB groups like to run. It’s more akin to the sound of vintage phasing rigs (which sound very good generally). And it IS better sounding SSB — provided the guy on the other end isn’t stuck with a 2.1 KHz mech filter or some other restrictive bandwidth. Certainly it’s less effective in working stations close to the noise level, but that isn’t what ESSB is about anyway.
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
>
>
>
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: ESSB

Administrator

Folks,

This list is not the place to debate where ESSB should, or should not, be
allowed, or to criticize those who use it. Please
take this portion of the thread to another location.

Thread closed.

73,

Eric
List Moderator
elecraft.com
----
On 11/17/2014 1:59 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> > ESSB has it’s place, just like every other mode.
>
> Not every mode has a place on every band.
>

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k6dgw

K3 and hearing aids

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

On 11/17/2014 1:01 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:

> I added a hearing aid to my
> only functional ear a week ago and found not only improved volume but
> improved freq response (in retrospect, not a surprise!). Now folks with
> high, "squeaky" voices are much more intelligible than they were before.

Very important topic for those of us with compromised hearing. Both my
ears still work, but the bulk of my hearing disappeared in one event one
night many years ago. I hear almost nothing above about 1200 Hz where
both ears are about 85 dB down, without the $6,000 worth of
microelectronics stuffed into my ears [fortunately, the government pays
for mine :-)]. My new ones can identify music, conversation, noise,
fire truck sirens, and CW, and adjust accordingly. They even talk to
each other so they change programs together.
>
> The downside is using headphones: I've preferred an Apple ear bud and
> have quite a collection. So I'm experimenting with new headphones vs.
> removing the hearing aid. I tried one over the ear type, well reviewed,
> that resulted in a sequence of chimes in the hearing aid -- not a good
> sign.

Mine do not work under my headphones [Heil Pro-Set I got from Elecraft],
they just shut down. I run the AF Gain at about 1 o'clock on CW [don't
operate much SSB, too hard to understand] which is right at the
beginning of distortion in the cans. I don't know if it's coming from
the K3 audio amp, or the headphones are being overdriven. My CW
sidetone is at 570 Hz, and I use a mark of 915 Hz on RTTY, both of which
I can hear if they're loud enough.

Since the hearing aids communicate with each other [if I manually turn
one up or down, the other does it too ... some bluetooth-ish thing I
suppose], I've wondered if there's a way to feed audio directly into
them from the K3. I haven't found one yet, and I don't know if it would
be better than the headphones.

If the audio distortion is coming from the AF amp in the K3, an outboard
amp might allow me to get higher sound levels in the headphones. If
it's coming from overdriving the headphones, maybe I need a better
headset/mic? If anyone has any experience driving digital hearing aids
directly, I'd like to discuss it with you. My aids are Phonak Savia's.

SS SSB and NAQP SSB are the only phone contests I play in, and only then
to create some points for my club. Last weekend's SS SSB was a real
slog for me.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

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KD8NNU

Re: ESSB

In reply to this post by alorona

I had the fortunate experience to work Jim during the contest and yes he had
a nice clean signal.

With the settings on my K3, Heil IC mic and SGC power cube I had multiple
comments on my signal and how nice it sounded. It felt good to have busy
contesters make such a statement.

Right before the contest I adjusted my compression to 10db per meter on the
K3 front panel and I have a 2.7 filter installed.

~73
Don
KD8NNU
2014 3905CC Top Gun :-)
-.- -.. ---.. -. -. ..-
-----Original Message-----
From: Al Lorona
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 2:05 PM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ESSB

I'm glad K9YC answered your question. If you heard Jim's signal during the
SS this weekend then you got to hear what the shaping he is describing
sounded like. His audio was very piercing but clean. It's not what I would
want to hear during a long ragchew with him, but his purpose was to project
his intelligibility across 40 meters for the purpose of a 30-second contact.

Another way to look at this is that our ear is most sensitive to frequencies
around 2 kHz (roughly) and so you really want to put as much of your power
in that region as you can. In this way, you're using the response of the
other op's ear to your advantage.

To further paraphrase what Jim said, when it comes to compression, "A little
is good, but more is not better," as evidenced by so many shockingly bad
signals this weekend. I wish someone would undertake a project to send
contesters recordings of themselves. I happened to be listening when a
station with especially egregious audio called K9YC, who gave the op a quick
but honest report at the end of his exchange. Who knows if that station will
heed the advice for the next contest.

Al W6LX
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Lewis Phelps

Re: K3 and hearing aids

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Hi, guys.

I wear hearing aids in both ears. I found a device that allows me to use my hearing aids as headphones.

My hearing aids are made by Widex. Wide offers a small accessory device called the MDEX, which communicates by radio waves (not Bluetooth) with the two hearing aids. The MDEX communicates by Bluetooth with cell phones and any other devices that have Bluetooth audio capability. The MDEX (which is about half the size of a pack of cigarettes) can also be connected directly to the K3 with a mini-stereo cable. In that mode, the K3 audio goes directly to my hearing aids. I can shut off room noise if I wish, or leave it to be piped into my ears along with the radio audio.

More info is available at http://www.widex.com/en/products/accessories/dex/mdex/ about the MDEX device.

Warning: this is not a low-budget solution to the headset problem. The hearing aids are $3K each, and the MDEX costs about $400. But it works well when I want to use the hearing aids as a headset, either for ham radio or music listening purposes.

73,

Lew

Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

“The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data.’”

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Jan Ditzian

Re: K3 and hearing aids

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Fred,

ReSound sells hearing aids that work with their own Mini-Mic. The
Mini-Mic pairs with the hearing aids and plugs into any headphone output
(I needed an adapter for the small Mini-Mic plug and the big phone plug
on the K3).

73,
Jan, KX2A

On 11/17/2014 6:36 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> On 11/17/2014 1:01 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
>
>> I added a hearing aid to my
>> only functional ear a week ago and found not only improved volume but
>> improved freq response (in retrospect, not a surprise!). Now folks with
>> high, "squeaky" voices are much more intelligible than they were before.
>
> Very important topic for those of us with compromised hearing. Both my
> ears still work, but the bulk of my hearing disappeared in one event
> one night many years ago. I hear almost nothing above about 1200 Hz
> where both ears are about 85 dB down, without the $6,000 worth of
> microelectronics stuffed into my ears [fortunately, the government
> pays for mine :-)]. My new ones can identify music, conversation,
> noise, fire truck sirens, and CW, and adjust accordingly. They even
> talk to each other so they change programs together.
>>
>> The downside is using headphones: I've preferred an Apple ear bud and
>> have quite a collection. So I'm experimenting with new headphones vs.
>> removing the hearing aid. I tried one over the ear type, well reviewed,
>> that resulted in a sequence of chimes in the hearing aid -- not a good
>> sign.
>
> Mine do not work under my headphones [Heil Pro-Set I got from
> Elecraft], they just shut down. I run the AF Gain at about 1 o'clock
> on CW [don't operate much SSB, too hard to understand] which is right
> at the beginning of distortion in the cans. I don't know if it's
> coming from the K3 audio amp, or the headphones are being overdriven.
> My CW sidetone is at 570 Hz, and I use a mark of 915 Hz on RTTY, both
> of which I can hear if they're loud enough.
>
> Since the hearing aids communicate with each other [if I manually turn
> one up or down, the other does it too ... some bluetooth-ish thing I
> suppose], I've wondered if there's a way to feed audio directly into
> them from the K3. I haven't found one yet, and I don't know if it
> would be better than the headphones.
>
> If the audio distortion is coming from the AF amp in the K3, an
> outboard amp might allow me to get higher sound levels in the
> headphones. If it's coming from overdriving the headphones, maybe I
> need a better headset/mic? If anyone has any experience driving
> digital hearing aids directly, I'd like to discuss it with you. My
> aids are Phonak Savia's.
>
> SS SSB and NAQP SSB are the only phone contests I play in, and only
> then to create some points for my club. Last weekend's SS SSB was a
> real slog for me.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
> - www.cqp.org
>
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>
>

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: K3 and hearing aids

In reply to this post by Lewis Phelps

Just about every hearing aid maker has something like this. It's not
unique to Widex, or Oticon, or any other make.

On 11/17/2014 6:47 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:

> Hi, guys.
>
> I wear hearing aids in both ears. I found a device that allows me to use my hearing aids as headphones.
>
> My hearing aids are made by Widex. Wide offers a small accessory device called the MDEX, which communicates by radio waves (not Bluetooth) with the two hearing aids. The MDEX communicates by Bluetooth with cell phones and any other devices that have Bluetooth audio capability. The MDEX (which is about half the size of a pack of cigarettes) can also be connected directly to the K3 with a mini-stereo cable. In that mode, the K3 audio goes directly to my hearing aids. I can shut off room noise if I wish, or leave it to be piped into my ears along with the radio audio.
>
> More info is available at http://www.widex.com/en/products/accessories/dex/mdex/ about the MDEX device.
>
> Warning: this is not a low-budget solution to the headset problem. The hearing aids are $3K each, and the MDEX costs about $400. But it works well when I want to use the hearing aids as a headset, either for ham radio or music listening purposes.
>
> 73,
>
> Lew
>
>
> Lew Phelps N6LEW
> Pasadena, CA DM04wd
> Elecraft K3-10
> Yaesu FT-7800
> [hidden email]
> www.n6lew.us
>
> “The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data.’”
>
>
>
>
>
>
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pa0pje

Re: ESSB

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

It's even kHz, with a lower case k, gentlemen...
mHz (yes millihertz!), Hz, kHz, MHz, GHz, THz

Op 17-11-14 om 19:29 schreef Phil Wheeler:
> I think you meant KHz, not MHz, David :-)
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ve3dvy

Re: ESSB

In reply to this post by David Ahrendts

Not sure if it was you and I cant even remember what band 40 I think,
but during the contest I did run across what appeared to be a rather
wide ssb signal typical of ESSB, rag chewing The audio was great
sounding a little reminiscent of some the AM nets on 40m I would
think that it would have less punch or diluted as you well describe it
but would be much better sounding for rag chew. I find that some ops
in a contest narrow with EQ the bandwidth of their signal to give them
punch but in doing so they are louder but harder to understand so I
don't really see the advantage.

David Moes
VE3SD

On 11/17/2014 13:22, David Ahrendts wrote:

> Experimented yesterday for a few minutes with ESSB (carefully avoiding weekend contesters), and it raised a fundamental question: As bandwidth is broadened, is effective radiated power diluted? In other words, will 500 watts with a 2.6MHz signal be more effective (stronger, punchier, more DBs transmitted) than 500 watts with a 4MHz ESSB signal?
>
> David Ahrendts, KC0XT
>
>
>
> David Ahrendts [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: ESSB

In reply to this post by pa0pje

Actually, I still prefer kc, Peter (or was there a
Mr. Cycle)?:-)

Phil W7OX

On 11/18/14 12:34 AM, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) wrote:
> It's even kHz, with a lower case k, gentlemen...
> mHz (yes millihertz!), Hz, kHz, MHz, GHz, THz
>
>
> Op 17-11-14 om 19:29 schreef Phil Wheeler:
>> I think you meant KHz, not MHz, David :-)

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