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Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

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wayne burdick

Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

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Hi Buddy et al,

We've definitely been thinking about this.

There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.

As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.

Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:

1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect a flexible accessible interface.

2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't exist at this time.

3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most controls and are another non-touch alternative.

I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will be helpful in most cases.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list]
> Hey Gary,
>
> I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on the blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation (below). Wayne, please feel free to comment on my comments and correct me where I erred:
>
> I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector for ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch screen access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails to me, committed to doing what they can in design parameters to make accessibility attainable, and they have been super cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and others who want to design accessibility tools.
>
> The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a client/server architecture, with network access available, so it seems to me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy, to implement. Especially given that there are still a wide range of physical buttons and knobs on board.
>
> And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not only available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re really interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth, write to Wayne directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer email.
>
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Email: [hidden email]
> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>
> > On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference to that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability for the blind operator.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __._,_.___
> Posted by: Buddy Brannan <[hidden email]>
> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
> VISIT YOUR GROUP
> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
>
>
> .
>
>
> __,_._,___

Buddy Brannan

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Hi Wayne,

Thanks as always for your direct response. I appreciate your forthrightness on this issue and willingness to tackle the more difficult questions/aspects/design decision justifications.

Elecraft has, as I stated in my original email, always been supportive of the blind ham community inasmuch as design limitations and parameters allow, and I for one appreciate your continuing commitment to that. Computer control couldn’t be simpler on the Elecraft rigs I own. The Hampod is also a fantastic accessory, and we appreciate your working with the developers of these aids.

I suspect that, were I able to get a higher end rig, I’d be opting for a K3 for the exact reasons you specify. But I’m a knob and button kind of guy. I think, were I interested in going whole hog for a K4, that your option (1) seems to be the most straightforward path, certainly in the short term, to get the mostbang for our accessibility buck, as it were. There’s lots of flexibility there.

I’m not sure what the state of the art is for touch screen accessibility under GNU/Linux. I know there is a GNOME-based screen reader, as well as an Android-based screen reader. Given the right clever people, it might be possible to have an alternative UI, but, as you say, that would be a pretty significant support issue for a pretty small market of users. But one could potentially duplicate those controls on, say, an Amazon Fire or Android tablet app. I think there really are possibilities for the right clever people…shame I’m not one such.

Again, I appreciate that Elecraft at least considers these issues, which is more than I can say for many, many other companies.

Vy 73,

Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: [hidden email]
Mobile: (814) 431-0962

> On May 24, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Buddy et al,
>
> We've definitely been thinking about this.
>
> There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.
>
> As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.
>
> Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:
>
> 1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect a flexible accessible interface.
>
> 2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't exist at this time.
>
> 3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most controls and are another non-touch alternative.
>
> I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will be helpful in most cases.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
>> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list]
>> Hey Gary,
>>
>> I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on the blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation (below). Wayne, please feel free to comment on my comments and correct me where I erred:
>>
>> I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector for ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch screen access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails to me, committed to doing what they can in design parameters to make accessibility attainable, and they have been super cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and others who want to design accessibility tools.
>>
>> The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a client/server architecture, with network access available, so it seems to me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy, to implement. Especially given that there are still a wide range of physical buttons and knobs on board.
>>
>> And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not only available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re really interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth, write to Wayne directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer email.
>>
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>>
>>> On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference to that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability for the blind operator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> __._,_.___
>> Posted by: Buddy Brannan <[hidden email]>
>> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
>> VISIT YOUR GROUP
>> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>>
>> SPONSORED LINKS
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> __,_._,___
>

Bill-3

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

You forgot to mention that "miracle of control" called the K-Pod.
Without it, I would be chasing the K3 with a mouse via HRD (mouse or
K-Pod sits on the edge of my desk within easy reach). I prefer to run
without being tethered to a computer.

A few extra buttons on the K-Pod would be great, but it is what it is
and I appreciate it for what it is.

A suggestion for the touch-screen users out there (IC-7300 and Fire
Tablet in my station) is to use a stylus. Very accurate and does not
crud up the screen.

______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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HarryW

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne and interested others,

Way back when, I bought a loaded K3. I believe the S/N was around 4K? It was back in the day when almost every DXpedition was using K3's so it was obviously the radio to own. (Around 2009?) It was at the top of the Sherwood ratings. Owner's bragged, incessantly, about its Sherwood rating.

After a period of time I grew to really dislike that radio. The audio was just plain awful and the man/machine interface was the worst I have ever seen. I detest bar graphs. I suppose if you play at ham radio 8 hours a day, seven days a week, the interface is "normal", even usable. For those of us who might get on the air for an hour or two a week, the controls were a mystery. Tap this button to do this, hold the same button for three seconds to do that, the list goes on. NOTHING was intuitive. It did not help that it was an incredibly ugly, too light and unsubstantial, radio. It's looks may have been barely acceptable when first introduced but it aged badly, rapidly. Over a ten year period it's price has become a real problem.

There were many, many questions on this reflector regarding the controls, the same questions about the same controls, over and over and over again. That should have been a very large hint that the controls should be massively improved in any new radio.

I sold my K3 and moved on to the big Japanese three, ANAN, and Flex, over the years. All had many, fairly easy to understand, controls. All were far, far more usable than the K3. Both the ANAN and Flex service departments are as good as Elecraft's.

Eventually I left the Elecraft reflector, and that is a whole other story.....

Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. It sounded like a really great radio. Sadly, I have concluded it will be a dud, mostly because it is designed with the same philosophy as the K3 was, a small, compact, easily transportable radio, "a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers", to quote you, Wayne. From all that I have read, the controls will be even more complex.

Ham radio operators are an aging group. Some suffer from the "fat finger" syndrome, others have vision problems, to name just two. The last thing they need or want is a tiny radio with minimal controls, each of which serves two or three or four or five purposes. They favor a radio that has many single or dual purpose knobs. They want bigger screens, the K4 screens are too small.

I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design criteria. Enlarging the physical size would not be a huge cost driver. Remember who your customers are.

And when the Flex 6700 kicked the K3 out of first place in the Sherwood ratings in 2014, the Koolaid drinkers on this reflector were heard to say, "People put too much faith in numbers". Hypocrisy is thy name. I haven't stopped laughing.

This email pertains to only the second and third paragraphs of Wayne's reply below.

I wish Elecraft well with the K4 but I really think your minimalist/too complex way of designing needs to change. You've probably already guessed that I won't be a customer of the K4 as currently proposed. And you really, really ought to improve this reflector...........

73,

Harry K1RSA

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:03 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Hi Buddy et al,

We've definitely been thinking about this.

There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.

As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.

Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:

1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect a flexible accessible interface.

2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't exist at this time.

3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most controls and are another non-touch alternative.

I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will be helpful in most cases.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list] Hey Gary,
>
> I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on the blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation (below). Wayne, please feel free to comment on my comments and correct me where I erred:
>
> I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector for ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch screen access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails to me, committed to doing what they can in design parameters to make accessibility attainable, and they have been super cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and others who want to design accessibility tools.
>
> The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a client/server architecture, with network access available, so it seems to me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy, to implement. Especially given that there are still a wide range of physical buttons and knobs on board.
>
> And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not only available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re really interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth, write to Wayne directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer email.
>
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Email: [hidden email]
> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>
> > On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference to that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability for the blind operator.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __._,_.___
> Posted by: Buddy Brannan <[hidden email]>
> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
> VISIT YOUR GROUP
> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
>
>
> .
>
>
> __,_._,___

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

HarryW

FW: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Second try.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 8:00 PM
To: 'Wayne Burdick' <[hidden email]>; 'Elecraft Reflector' <[hidden email]>; '[hidden email]' <[hidden email]>; '[hidden email]' <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Wayne and interested others,

Way back when, I bought a loaded K3. I believe the S/N was around 4K? It was back in the day when almost every DXpedition was using K3's so it was obviously the radio to own. (Around 2009?) It was at the top of the Sherwood ratings. Owner's bragged, incessantly, about its Sherwood rating.

After a period of time I grew to really dislike that radio. The audio was just plain awful and the man/machine interface was the worst I have ever seen. I detest bar graphs. I suppose if you play at ham radio 8 hours a day, seven days a week, the interface is "normal", even usable. For those of us who might get on the air for an hour or two a week, the controls were a mystery. Tap this button to do this, hold the same button for three seconds to do that, the list goes on. NOTHING was intuitive. It did not help that it was an incredibly ugly, too light and unsubstantial, radio. It's looks may have been barely acceptable when first introduced but it aged badly, rapidly. Over a ten year period it's price has become a real problem.

There were many, many questions on this reflector regarding the controls, the same questions about the same controls, over and over and over again. That should have been a very large hint that the controls should be massively improved in any new radio.

I sold my K3 and moved on to the big Japanese three, ANAN, and Flex, over the years. All had many, fairly easy to understand, controls. All were far, far more usable than the K3. Both the ANAN and Flex service departments are as good as Elecraft's.

Eventually I left the Elecraft reflector, and that is a whole other story.....

Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. It sounded like a really great radio. Sadly, I have concluded it will be a dud, mostly because it is designed with the same philosophy as the K3 was, a small, compact, easily transportable radio, "a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers", to quote you, Wayne. From all that I have read, the controls will be even more complex.

Ham radio operators are an aging group. Some suffer from the "fat finger" syndrome, others have vision problems, to name just two. The last thing they need or want is a tiny radio with minimal controls, each of which serves two or three or four or five purposes. They favor a radio that has many single or dual purpose knobs. They want bigger screens, the K4 screens are too small.

I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design criteria. Enlarging the physical size would not be a huge cost driver. Remember who your customers are.

And when the Flex 6700 kicked the K3 out of first place in the Sherwood ratings in 2014, the Koolaid drinkers on this reflector were heard to say, "People put too much faith in numbers". Hypocrisy is thy name. I haven't stopped laughing.

This email pertains to only the second and third paragraphs of Wayne's reply below.

I wish Elecraft well with the K4 but I really think your minimalist/too complex way of designing needs to change. You've probably already guessed that I won't be a customer of the K4 as currently proposed. And you really, really ought to improve this reflector...........

73,

Harry K1RSA

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:03 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Hi Buddy et al,

We've definitely been thinking about this.

There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.

As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.

Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:

1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect a flexible accessible interface.

2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't exist at this time.

3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most controls and are another non-touch alternative.

I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will be helpful in most cases.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

Rod Hardman

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by HarryW

Harry, you got they the first time.

I respect your right to an opinion and right to vote with your dollars. You represent a market segment that Elecraft May or may not choose to address. It’s Wayne and Eric’s strategy to decide.

I for one may represent a different (slightly) younger market segment and I have been drawn to the Elecraft UI and design philosophy. I create computer based products, although mostly software these days and I think Wayne and the development team are spot on. To me, the Elecraft menus just “feel right” compared to the Japanese approach.

There’s lots of room for different market segments in this hobby. Everyone should vote with there dollars.

Eric, Wayne and the whole team should be mindful of all feedback, but be respectful of their their choices (and others tastes). let’s not come on the Elecraft reflector to troll Elecraft design. It’s not cool to call someone’s kid ugly.

I’m sure you were not intending to be hurtful, but I know too well engineers put their whole Hearts into such things and I’m always careful about that

/ rod, VA3ON

On May 24, 2019, at 20:00, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wayne and interested others,

Way back when, I bought a loaded K3. I believe the S/N was around 4K? It was back in the day when almost every DXpedition was using K3's so it was obviously the radio to own. (Around 2009?) It was at the top of the Sherwood ratings. Owner's bragged, incessantly, about its Sherwood rating.

After a period of time I grew to really dislike that radio. The audio was just plain awful and the man/machine interface was the worst I have ever seen. I detest bar graphs. I suppose if you play at ham radio 8 hours a day, seven days a week, the interface is "normal", even usable. For those of us who might get on the air for an hour or two a week, the controls were a mystery. Tap this button to do this, hold the same button for three seconds to do that, the list goes on. NOTHING was intuitive. It did not help that it was an incredibly ugly, too light and unsubstantial, radio. It's looks may have been barely acceptable when first introduced but it aged badly, rapidly. Over a ten year period it's price has become a real problem.

There were many, many questions on this reflector regarding the controls, the same questions about the same controls, over and over and over again. That should have been a very large hint that the controls should be massively improved in any new radio.

I sold my K3 and moved on to the big Japanese three, ANAN, and Flex, over the years. All had many, fairly easy to understand, controls. All were far, far more usable than the K3. Both the ANAN and Flex service departments are as good as Elecraft's.

Eventually I left the Elecraft reflector, and that is a whole other story.....

Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. It sounded like a really great radio. Sadly, I have concluded it will be a dud, mostly because it is designed with the same philosophy as the K3 was, a small, compact, easily transportable radio, "a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers", to quote you, Wayne. From all that I have read, the controls will be even more complex.

Ham radio operators are an aging group. Some suffer from the "fat finger" syndrome, others have vision problems, to name just two. The last thing they need or want is a tiny radio with minimal controls, each of which serves two or three or four or five purposes. They favor a radio that has many single or dual purpose knobs. They want bigger screens, the K4 screens are too small.

I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design criteria. Enlarging the physical size would not be a huge cost driver. Remember who your customers are.

And when the Flex 6700 kicked the K3 out of first place in the Sherwood ratings in 2014, the Koolaid drinkers on this reflector were heard to say, "People put too much faith in numbers". Hypocrisy is thy name. I haven't stopped laughing.

This email pertains to only the second and third paragraphs of Wayne's reply below.

I wish Elecraft well with the K4 but I really think your minimalist/too complex way of designing needs to change. You've probably already guessed that I won't be a customer of the K4 as currently proposed. And you really, really ought to improve this reflector...........

73,

Harry K1RSA

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:03 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Hi Buddy et al,

We've definitely been thinking about this.

There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.

As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.

Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:

1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect a flexible accessible interface.

2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't exist at this time.

3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most controls and are another non-touch alternative.

I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will be helpful in most cases.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list] Hey Gary,
>
> I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on the blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation (below). Wayne, please feel free to comment on my comments and correct me where I erred:
>
> I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector for ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch screen access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails to me, committed to doing what they can in design parameters to make accessibility attainable, and they have been super cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and others who want to design accessibility tools.
>
> The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a client/server architecture, with network access available, so it seems to me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy, to implement. Especially given that there are still a wide range of physical buttons and knobs on board.
>
> And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not only available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re really interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth, write to Wayne directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer email.
>
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Email: [hidden email]
> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>
>> On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference to that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability for the blind operator.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __._,_.___
> Posted by: Buddy Brannan <[hidden email]>
> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
> VISIT YOUR GROUP
> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
>
>
> .
>
>
> __,_._,___

wayne burdick

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Administrator

In reply to this post by HarryW

> On May 24, 2019, at 5:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. ... From all that I have read, the controls will be even more complex.

The K4's controls are actually quite a bit simpler, and more intuitive, thanks to the new display.

We were limited to a small display with fixed segments in the K3/K3S, which constrained the ways we could provide visual feedback. Also, as the years went by, we added many new features that, in turn, were constrained by the existing switches/knobs/display. This evolution may not have been ideal from a UI standpoint, but it provided our customers with features they wanted, without the need to continually buy a new radio.

We accepted a long time ago that we can't please everyone or satisfy every ergonomic requirement. Our business was forged at Field Day, so portability will remain a high priority. Lifting or carrying a K4 won't hurt aging backs.

We (and hundreds who tried the radio at Dayton, expressing delight at the new front panel) feel that the K4's UI is not just a significant advance over the K3/K3S, but also over most other transceivers in its class, regardless of their size and weight.

I invite you to try the radio in person if you get the chance.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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ke9uw

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by HarryW

I’ll be interested in hearing what you think after you use a K4.

Chuck Jack
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack

> On May 24, 2019, at 7:00 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Wayne and interested others,
>
> Way back when, I bought a loaded K3. I believe the S/N was around 4K? It was back in the day when almost every DXpedition was using K3's so it was obviously the radio to own. (Around 2009?) It was at the top of the Sherwood ratings. Owner's bragged, incessantly, about its Sherwood rating.
>
> After a period of time I grew to really dislike that radio. The audio was just plain awful and the man/machine interface was the worst I have ever seen. I detest bar graphs. I suppose if you play at ham radio 8 hours a day, seven days a week, the interface is "normal", even usable. For those of us who might get on the air for an hour or two a week, the controls were a mystery. Tap this button to do this, hold the same button for three seconds to do that, the list goes on. NOTHING was intuitive. It did not help that it was an incredibly ugly, too light and unsubstantial, radio. It's looks may have been barely acceptable when first introduced but it aged badly, rapidly. Over a ten year period it's price has become a real problem.
>
> There were many, many questions on this reflector regarding the controls, the same questions about the same controls, over and over and over again. That should have been a very large hint that the controls should be massively improved in any new radio.
>
> I sold my K3 and moved on to the big Japanese three, ANAN, and Flex, over the years. All had many, fairly easy to understand, controls. All were far, far more usable than the K3. Both the ANAN and Flex service departments are as good as Elecraft's.
>
> Eventually I left the Elecraft reflector, and that is a whole other story.....
>
> Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. It sounded like a really great radio. Sadly, I have concluded it will be a dud, mostly because it is designed with the same philosophy as the K3 was, a small, compact, easily transportable radio, "a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers", to quote you, Wayne. From all that I have read, the controls will be even more complex.
>
> Ham radio operators are an aging group. Some suffer from the "fat finger" syndrome, others have vision problems, to name just two. The last thing they need or want is a tiny radio with minimal controls, each of which serves two or three or four or five purposes. They favor a radio that has many single or dual purpose knobs. They want bigger screens, the K4 screens are too small.
>
> I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design criteria. Enlarging the physical size would not be a huge cost driver. Remember who your customers are.
>
> And when the Flex 6700 kicked the K3 out of first place in the Sherwood ratings in 2014, the Koolaid drinkers on this reflector were heard to say, "People put too much faith in numbers". Hypocrisy is thy name. I haven't stopped laughing.
>
> This email pertains to only the second and third paragraphs of Wayne's reply below.
>
> I wish Elecraft well with the K4 but I really think your minimalist/too complex way of designing needs to change. You've probably already guessed that I won't be a customer of the K4 as currently proposed. And you really, really ought to improve this reflector...........
>
> 73,
>
> Harry K1RSA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:03 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility
>
> Hi Buddy et al,
>
> We've definitely been thinking about this.
>
> There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.
>
> As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.
>
> Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:
>
> 1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect a flexible accessible interface.
>
> 2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't exist at this time.
>
> 3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most controls and are another non-touch alternative.
>
> I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will be helpful in most cases.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
>> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list] Hey Gary,
>>
>> I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on the blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation (below). Wayne, please feel free to comment on my comments and correct me where I erred:
>>
>> I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector for ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch screen access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails to me, committed to doing what they can in design parameters to make accessibility attainable, and they have been super cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and others who want to design accessibility tools.
>>
>> The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a client/server architecture, with network access available, so it seems to me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy, to implement. Especially given that there are still a wide range of physical buttons and knobs on board.
>>
>> And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not only available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re really interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth, write to Wayne directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer email.
>>
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>>
>>> On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference to that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability for the blind operator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> __._,_.___
>> Posted by: Buddy Brannan <[hidden email]>
>> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
>> VISIT YOUR GROUP
>> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>>
>> SPONSORED LINKS
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> __,_._,___
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Chuck, KE9UW

Peter Hall

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by Rod Hardman

Rod,

I doubt that the Elecraft Principals and Engineers are such delicate snowflakes that they are unable to deal with some frank feedback from any corner. And, in many ways, critical feedback inviting a review of basic design principles is at least as valuable as pages of Q&A about work-arounds and detail; it all has its place. Harsh criticism, respectfully delivered as Harry's was, is not trolling.

I'm a happy KPA1500 owner but, as you recognize, not everyone warms to all products from a given manufacturer and, despite close examination of Elecraft transceiver offerings, I made alternative choices, most recently involving a TS-890S (which, by the way, also has the RIT/XIT in the right place!). I look forward to the K4 release and have no doubts it will be a great radio. I may yet vote in that direction but I found the way Elecraft handled the K4 announcement (controlled leak?) baffling and reminiscent of Apple and their fanboys. I recall a thread on the K4 being closed a couple of months ago, only for another sanctioned one to emerge and continue, followed by the dribble of actual news about the K4. It was all just odd, in my view.

73, Peter (VK6HP).

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Rod Hardman
Sent: Saturday, 25 May 2019 8:17 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Harry, you got they the first time.

I respect your right to an opinion and right to vote with your dollars. You represent a market segment that Elecraft May or may not choose to address. It’s Wayne and Eric’s strategy to decide.

I for one may represent a different (slightly) younger market segment and I have been drawn to the Elecraft UI and design philosophy. I create computer based products, although mostly software these days and I think Wayne and the development team are spot on. To me, the Elecraft menus just “feel right” compared to the Japanese approach.

There’s lots of room for different market segments in this hobby. Everyone should vote with there dollars.

Eric, Wayne and the whole team should be mindful of all feedback, but be respectful of their their choices (and others tastes). let’s not come on the Elecraft reflector to troll Elecraft design. It’s not cool to call someone’s kid ugly.

I’m sure you were not intending to be hurtful, but I know too well engineers put their whole Hearts into such things and I’m always careful about that

/ rod, VA3ON

On May 24, 2019, at 20:00, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wayne and interested others,

Way back when, I bought a loaded K3. I believe the S/N was around 4K? It was back in the day when almost every DXpedition was using K3's so it was obviously the radio to own. (Around 2009?) It was at the top of the Sherwood ratings. Owner's bragged, incessantly, about its Sherwood rating.

After a period of time I grew to really dislike that radio. The audio was just plain awful and the man/machine interface was the worst I have ever seen. I detest bar graphs. I suppose if you play at ham radio 8 hours a day, seven days a week, the interface is "normal", even usable. For those of us who might get on the air for an hour or two a week, the controls were a mystery. Tap this button to do this, hold the same button for three seconds to do that, the list goes on. NOTHING was intuitive. It did not help that it was an incredibly ugly, too light and unsubstantial, radio. It's looks may have been barely acceptable when first introduced but it aged badly, rapidly. Over a ten year period it's price has become a real problem.

There were many, many questions on this reflector regarding the controls, the same questions about the same controls, over and over and over again. That should have been a very large hint that the controls should be massively improved in any new radio.

I sold my K3 and moved on to the big Japanese three, ANAN, and Flex, over the years. All had many, fairly easy to understand, controls. All were far, far more usable than the K3. Both the ANAN and Flex service departments are as good as Elecraft's.

Eventually I left the Elecraft reflector, and that is a whole other story.....

Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. It sounded like a really great radio. Sadly, I have concluded it will be a dud, mostly because it is designed with the same philosophy as the K3 was, a small, compact, easily transportable radio, "a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers", to quote you, Wayne. From all that I have read, the controls will be even more complex.

Ham radio operators are an aging group. Some suffer from the "fat finger" syndrome, others have vision problems, to name just two. The last thing they need or want is a tiny radio with minimal controls, each of which serves two or three or four or five purposes. They favor a radio that has many single or dual purpose knobs. They want bigger screens, the K4 screens are too small.

I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design criteria. Enlarging the physical size would not be a huge cost driver. Remember who your customers are.

And when the Flex 6700 kicked the K3 out of first place in the Sherwood ratings in 2014, the Koolaid drinkers on this reflector were heard to say, "People put too much faith in numbers". Hypocrisy is thy name. I haven't stopped laughing.

This email pertains to only the second and third paragraphs of Wayne's reply below.

I wish Elecraft well with the K4 but I really think your minimalist/too complex way of designing needs to change. You've probably already guessed that I won't be a customer of the K4 as currently proposed. And you really, really ought to improve this reflector...........

73,

Harry K1RSA

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:03 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Hi Buddy et al,

We've definitely been thinking about this.

There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.

As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.

Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:

1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect a flexible accessible interface.

2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't exist at this time.

3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most controls and are another non-touch alternative.

I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will be helpful in most cases.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list] Hey Gary,
>
> I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on the blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation (below). Wayne, please feel free to comment on my comments and correct me where I erred:
>
> I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector for ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch screen access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails to me, committed to doing what they can in design parameters to make accessibility attainable, and they have been super cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and others who want to design accessibility tools.
>
> The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a client/server architecture, with network access available, so it seems to me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy, to implement. Especially given that there are still a wide range of physical buttons and knobs on board.
>
> And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not only available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re really interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth, write to Wayne directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer email.
>
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Email: [hidden email]
> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>
>> On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference to that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability for the blind operator.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __._,_.___
> Posted by: Buddy Brannan <[hidden email]>
> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
> VISIT YOUR GROUP
> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
>
>
> .
>
>
> __,_._,___

Tom Azlin W7SUA-2

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Hi Wayne.

I am expecting to buy a new radio next year so good discussion on the K4.

I expect to use my current upgraded K3 both at home and in the field,
perhaps at a field day event so high dynamic range is good. At home we
are out in a rural area so the K4 or K4D will be good.

I tend to not use tough screen things but if the touch screen was robust
as I read is true for the K4 that might be fine.

Comments below...

On 5/24/2019 11:02 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi Buddy et al,
>
> We've definitely been thinking about this.
>
> There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we
> reached a point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not
> entirely aligned with accessibility, as you know. I'll address
> alternatives in this email.
>
> As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part
> on use of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate
> an equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software
> required to implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch
> screen allows context sensitivity (physical overloading) for
> controls, making the K4 the equivalent of a much larger radio without
> touch. The resulting compact size is still compatible with portable
> use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and power-efficient), a hallmark
> of Elecraft transceivers.

Integrating the P3 is very nice. So having a hybrid touch and knob radio
would actually work.

>
> Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:
>
> 1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will
> be represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be
> fully public as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external
> devices or computers will be able to immediately make use of these
> commands to effect a flexible accessible interface.

Either way this is good as I use digital modes programs, such as fldigi,
JS8Call and WSJT-X sometimes. So regardless of #2 or #3 this is good.

>
> 2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's
> touch controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no
> panadapter. This would be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing
> support, similar to that needed for mobile/fixed app development. We
> don't have the staff to support this, so we'd need to engage the
> wider community to find a developer with suitable skills and
> motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't exist at this
> time.

Not something I want but for poor eyesight might be handy.

>
> 3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar
> basic features, without touch. Since many of the added features of
> the K4 are panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that
> the K3S is a viable alternative. No doubt there will be more used
> K3's and K3S's on the market over the next year. The KX3 and KX2
> provide audio CW feedback on most controls and are another non-touch
> alternative.

Well, keep the accessories for a K3 or K3S available and this might be
fine. I am sighted but this is important.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.

73, tom w7sua

>
> I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI
> will be helpful in most cases.
>
> 73, Wayne N6KR
>
>
>
>
>> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3]
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list] Hey Gary,
>>
>> I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on
>> the blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation
>> (below). Wayne, please feel free to comment on my comments and
>> correct me where I erred:
>>
>> I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector
>> for ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch
>> screen access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of
>> one of their tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails
>> to me, committed to doing what they can in design parameters to
>> make accessibility attainable, and they have been super cooperative
>> with people like the Hampod folks and others who want to design
>> accessibility tools.
>>
>> The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a
>> client/server architecture, with network access available, so it
>> seems to me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy,
>> to implement. Especially given that there are still a wide range of
>> physical buttons and knobs on board.
>>
>> And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not
>> only available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re
>> really interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth,
>> write to Wayne directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer
>> email.
>>
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA Email: [hidden email] Mobile:
>> (814) 431-0962
>>
>>> On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3]
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference
>>> to that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering
>>> about usability for the blind operator.
>>>

Edward R Cole

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Harry,

From what you wrote seems the K3/K4 probably is a poor fit for your
ham radio experience. Short time, occasional use probably other
radios would be easier since you probably don't need or would use
many of the features of these radios.

When I bought my K3 (sn4340) in 2010 it took me a few week to fully
understand a lot of its features. But I thoroughly love the
radio. I use the diversity Rx a lot for my eme operating. I
likewise don't care for the sound of the built-in speaker so I either
use and external speaker or headphones.

I'd liken the K3 to something like a Porshe or Maserati. I would
guess you probably prefer a comfortable Mercury or Impala. BTW on
cars I chose a Ford pickup as appropriate to my use.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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Doug Turnbull

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

Harry, There is no one radio or mfg for all of us. An old FT101 will pretty much work anyone on the air. Your views, needs are interesting and your prentation measured. 73 Doug EI2CNSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> Date: 25/05/2019 08:15 (GMT+00:00) To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility Harry, From what you wrote seems the K3/K4 probably is a poor fit for your ham radio experience. Short time, occasional use probably other radios would be easier since you probably don't need or would use many of the features of these radios.When I bought my K3 (sn4340) in 2010 it took me a few week to fully understand a lot of its features. But I thoroughly love the radio. I use the diversity Rx a lot for my eme operating. I likewise don't care for the sound of the built-in speaker so I either use and external speaker or headphones.I'd liken the K3 to something like a Porshe or Maserati. I would guess you probably prefer a comfortable Mercury or Impala. BTW on cars I chose a Ford pickup as appropriate to my use.73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.comDubus-NA Business mail: [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________Elecraft mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:[hidden email] list hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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HarryW

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Good morning Wayne,

That's a great idea; trying the K4. See you at Boxboro.

Harry K1RSA

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 8:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

> On May 24, 2019, at 5:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. ... From all
that I have read, the controls will be even more complex.

The K4's controls are actually quite a bit simpler, and more intuitive,
thanks to the new display.

We were limited to a small display with fixed segments in the K3/K3S, which
constrained the ways we could provide visual feedback. Also, as the years
went by, we added many new features that, in turn, were constrained by the
existing switches/knobs/display. This evolution may not have been ideal from
a UI standpoint, but it provided our customers with features they wanted,
without the need to continually buy a new radio.

We accepted a long time ago that we can't please everyone or satisfy every
ergonomic requirement. Our business was forged at Field Day, so portability
will remain a high priority. Lifting or carrying a K4 won't hurt aging
backs.

We (and hundreds who tried the radio at Dayton, expressing delight at the
new front panel) feel that the K4's UI is not just a significant advance
over the K3/K3S, but also over most other transceivers in its class,
regardless of their size and weight.

I invite you to try the radio in person if you get the chance.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

---
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by HarryW

On 5/24/2019 5:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design criteria.

This is exactly the opposite of how I feel about radios -- I'll be 78 in
the fall, but I'm still an active guy dragging my gear to portable
setups, and my shack is a SO2R contesting setup (single op, two radios).
For both reasons, I am VERY happy with the light weight and small
footprint of the K3 (as well as it's predecessor, the K2, and relatives,
the KX3 and KX2). I don't want big knobs or even a lot of knobs -- when
I'm operating, the only knobs I'm using are the gain controls and
whatever changes frequency, including RIT or XIT.

But what do I know -- I've only been doing it for 63 years.

73, Jim K9YC

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Rick Tavan-2

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by HarryW

Wow. Your preference seems to be in a minority, Harry, although I have to
admit that my opinion is subjective and based mainly on what I've read on
this reflector which may well be biased by folks like me who *like* the K3.
I think Elecraft retained in the K4 many of the design points that made the
K3 very successful and enduring, including its light weight and small size
which are two major complaints on your list. So it may be a chocolate vs.
vanilla situation - some people (like me) value those characteristics while
other people (like you) dislike them. Of course, you're right that many
prospective buyers are aging and some may come to dislike smaller knobs, I
for one still find the knobs and buttons plenty big enough and I'm now 70
years old. I once measured the K3 button size and spacing against my prior
favorite rig, the FT-1000MP, and found them practically the same. I never
had trouble operating the K3 and its menu structure was logical, rarely
needed, and self-documenting. The new K4 screen is plenty large enough for
me and comparable to many current, competitive radios'. It can also be
blown up to as large as you like through the addition of an in expensive,
external, HDMI monitor or a tablet. I've seen it and it was gorgeous.

So you're certainly correct that some people like big, heavy radios with
"substantial" knobs and they may not buy the K4. Others like radios they
can lift without back strain, carry to vacation homes and field sites,
operate remotely with minimal external hardware, and expect to survive
through upgrades for a decade. Many of them, like me, have been K3 fans for
12 years or so and will be delighted to buy the K4. The market will decide.
I think the K4 will be highly successful and I'm rooting for it. We'll see.

73,

/Rick N6XI
--

Rick Tavan
Truckee, CA

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:00 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wayne and interested others,
>
> Way back when, I bought a loaded K3. I believe the S/N was around 4K? It
> was back in the day when almost every DXpedition was using K3's so it was
> obviously the radio to own. (Around 2009?) It was at the top of the
> Sherwood ratings. Owner's bragged, incessantly, about its Sherwood rating.
>
> After a period of time I grew to really dislike that radio. The audio was
> just plain awful and the man/machine interface was the worst I have ever
> seen. I detest bar graphs. I suppose if you play at ham radio 8 hours a
> day, seven days a week, the interface is "normal", even usable. For those
> of us who might get on the air for an hour or two a week, the controls were
> a mystery. Tap this button to do this, hold the same button for three
> seconds to do that, the list goes on. NOTHING was intuitive. It did not
> help that it was an incredibly ugly, too light and unsubstantial, radio.
> It's looks may have been barely acceptable when first introduced but it
> aged badly, rapidly. Over a ten year period it's price has become a real
> problem.
>
> There were many, many questions on this reflector regarding the controls,
> the same questions about the same controls, over and over and over again.
> That should have been a very large hint that the controls should be
> massively improved in any new radio.
>
> I sold my K3 and moved on to the big Japanese three, ANAN, and Flex, over
> the years. All had many, fairly easy to understand, controls. All were far,
> far more usable than the K3. Both the ANAN and Flex service departments are
> as good as Elecraft's.
>
> Eventually I left the Elecraft reflector, and that is a whole other
> story.....
>
> Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. It sounded
> like a really great radio. Sadly, I have concluded it will be a dud, mostly
> because it is designed with the same philosophy as the K3 was, a small,
> compact, easily transportable radio, "a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers",
> to quote you, Wayne. From all that I have read, the controls will be even
> more complex.
>
> Ham radio operators are an aging group. Some suffer from the "fat finger"
> syndrome, others have vision problems, to name just two. The last thing
> they need or want is a tiny radio with minimal controls, each of which
> serves two or three or four or five purposes. They favor a radio that has
> many single or dual purpose knobs. They want bigger screens, the K4 screens
> are too small.
>
> I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design
> criteria. Enlarging the physical size would not be a huge cost driver.
> Remember who your customers are.
>
> And when the Flex 6700 kicked the K3 out of first place in the Sherwood
> ratings in 2014, the Koolaid drinkers on this reflector were heard to say,
> "People put too much faith in numbers". Hypocrisy is thy name. I haven't
> stopped laughing.
>
> This email pertains to only the second and third paragraphs of Wayne's
> reply below.
>
> I wish Elecraft well with the K4 but I really think your minimalist/too
> complex way of designing needs to change. You've probably already guessed
> that I won't be a customer of the K4 as currently proposed. And you really,
> really ought to improve this reflector...........
>
> 73,
>
> Harry K1RSA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:03 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility
>
> Hi Buddy et al,
>
> We've definitely been thinking about this.
>
> There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a
> point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned
> with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.
>
> As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use
> of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an
> equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to
> implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context
> sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the
> equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size
> is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and
> power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.
>
> Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:
>
> 1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be
> represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public
> as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or
> computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect
> a flexible accessible interface.
>
> 2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch
> controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would
> be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that
> needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support
> this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with
> suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't
> exist at this time.
>
> 3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic
> features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are
> panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable
> alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market
> over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most
> controls and are another non-touch alternative.
>
> I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will
> be helpful in most cases.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
> > On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3] <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list] Hey Gary,
> >
> > I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on the
> blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation (below). Wayne,
> please feel free to comment on my comments and correct me where I erred:
> >
> > I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector for
> ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch screen
> access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their
> tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails to me, committed to
> doing what they can in design parameters to make accessibility attainable,
> and they have been super cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and
> others who want to design accessibility tools.
> >
> > The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a
> client/server architecture, with network access available, so it seems to
> me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy, to implement.
> Especially given that there are still a wide range of physical buttons and
> knobs on board.
> >
> > And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not only
> available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re really
> interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth, write to Wayne
> directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer email.
> >
> > Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> > Email: [hidden email]
> > Mobile: (814) 431-0962
> >
> > > On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3] <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference to
> that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability
> for the blind operator.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __._,_.___
> > Posted by: Buddy Brannan <[hidden email]>
> > Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to
> group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
> > VISIT YOUR GROUP
> > • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> > __,_._,___
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>
> ---
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>
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Rick Tavan N6XI

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by HarryW

Wow. Your preference seems to be in a minority, Harry, although I have to
admit that my opinion is subjective and based mainly on what I've read on
this reflector which may well be biased by folks like me who *like* the K3.
I think Elecraft retained in the K4 many of the design points that made the
K3 very successful and enduring, including its light weight and small size
which are two major complaints on your list. So it may be a chocolate vs.
vanilla situation - some people (like me) value those characteristics while
other people (like you) dislike them. Of course, you're right that many
prospective buyers are aging and some may come to dislike smaller knobs, I
for one still find the knobs and buttons plenty big enough and I'm now 70
years old. I once measured the K3 button size and spacing against my prior
favorite rig, the FT-1000MP, and found them practically the same. I never
had trouble operating the K3 and its menu structure was logical, rarely
needed, and self-documenting. The new K4 screen is plenty large enough for
me and comparable to many current, competitive radios'. It can also be
blown up to as large as you like through the addition of an in expensive,
external, HDMI monitor or a tablet. I've seen it and it was gorgeous.

So you're certainly correct that some people like big, heavy radios with
"substantial" knobs and they may not buy the K4. Others like radios they
can lift without back strain, carry to vacation homes and field sites,
operate remotely with minimal external hardware, and expect to survive
through upgrades for a decade. Many of them, like me, have been K3 fans for
12 years or so and will be delighted to buy the K4. The market will decide.
I think the K4 will be highly successful and I'm rooting for it. We'll see.

73,

/Rick N6XI

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:00 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jim Brown-10

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by Rick Tavan-2

On 5/26/2019 11:55 AM, Rick Tavan wrote:
> I never
> had trouble operating the K3 and its menu structure was logical, rarely
> needed, and self-documenting. The new K4 screen is plenty large enough for
> me and comparable to many current, competitive radios'. It can also be
> blown up to as large as you like through the addition of an in expensive,
> external, HDMI monitor or a tablet. I've seen it and it was gorgeous.

In addition to being a very smart engineer, Rick is a great operator who
has competed in several WRTCs.

73, Jim K9YC

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k6dgw

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by Rick Tavan-2

If the K3 is too lightweight, one could always go retro. My SX28
weighed in right at 100 lbs and it was only a receiver. The DX-100 was
yet another 100. On the serious side, I'm approaching 79 next month and
I can still manage the K3 buttons although I wouldn't want them any
smaller or closer than they are. The KPod helps a lot, and reading the
K3's legends is becoming an issue for me. On the other hand, an
FT1000MP won't fit on my desk but a K3 does.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 5/26/2019 11:55 AM, Rick Tavan wrote:

> Wow. Your preference seems to be in a minority, Harry, although I have to
> admit that my opinion is subjective and based mainly on what I've read on
> this reflector which may well be biased by folks like me who *like* the K3.
> I think Elecraft retained in the K4 many of the design points that made the
> K3 very successful and enduring, including its light weight and small size
> which are two major complaints on your list. So it may be a chocolate vs.
> vanilla situation - some people (like me) value those characteristics while
> other people (like you) dislike them. Of course, you're right that many
> prospective buyers are aging and some may come to dislike smaller knobs, I
> for one still find the knobs and buttons plenty big enough and I'm now 70
> years old. I once measured the K3 button size and spacing against my prior
> favorite rig, the FT-1000MP, and found them practically the same. I never
> had trouble operating the K3 and its menu structure was logical, rarely
> needed, and self-documenting. The new K4 screen is plenty large enough for
> me and comparable to many current, competitive radios'. It can also be
> blown up to as large as you like through the addition of an in expensive,
> external, HDMI monitor or a tablet. I've seen it and it was gorgeous.
>
> So you're certainly correct that some people like big, heavy radios with
> "substantial" knobs and they may not buy the K4. Others like radios they
> can lift without back strain, carry to vacation homes and field sites,
> operate remotely with minimal external hardware, and expect to survive
> through upgrades for a decade. Many of them, like me, have been K3 fans for
> 12 years or so and will be delighted to buy the K4. The market will decide.
> I think the K4 will be highly successful and I'm rooting for it. We'll see.
>
> 73,
>
> /Rick N6XI
> --
>
> Rick Tavan
> Truckee, CA
>
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:00 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Wayne and interested others,
>>
>> Way back when, I bought a loaded K3. I believe the S/N was around 4K? It
>> was back in the day when almost every DXpedition was using K3's so it was
>> obviously the radio to own. (Around 2009?) It was at the top of the
>> Sherwood ratings. Owner's bragged, incessantly, about its Sherwood rating.
>>
>> After a period of time I grew to really dislike that radio. The audio was
>> just plain awful and the man/machine interface was the worst I have ever
>> seen. I detest bar graphs. I suppose if you play at ham radio 8 hours a
>> day, seven days a week, the interface is "normal", even usable. For those
>> of us who might get on the air for an hour or two a week, the controls were
>> a mystery. Tap this button to do this, hold the same button for three
>> seconds to do that, the list goes on. NOTHING was intuitive. It did not
>> help that it was an incredibly ugly, too light and unsubstantial, radio.
>> It's looks may have been barely acceptable when first introduced but it
>> aged badly, rapidly. Over a ten year period it's price has become a real
>> problem.
>>
>> There were many, many questions on this reflector regarding the controls,
>> the same questions about the same controls, over and over and over again.
>> That should have been a very large hint that the controls should be
>> massively improved in any new radio.
>>
>> I sold my K3 and moved on to the big Japanese three, ANAN, and Flex, over
>> the years. All had many, fairly easy to understand, controls. All were far,
>> far more usable than the K3. Both the ANAN and Flex service departments are
>> as good as Elecraft's.
>>
>> Eventually I left the Elecraft reflector, and that is a whole other
>> story.....
>>
>> Last week the K4 was announced so I rejoined the reflector. It sounded
>> like a really great radio. Sadly, I have concluded it will be a dud, mostly
>> because it is designed with the same philosophy as the K3 was, a small,
>> compact, easily transportable radio, "a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers",
>> to quote you, Wayne. From all that I have read, the controls will be even
>> more complex.
>>
>> Ham radio operators are an aging group. Some suffer from the "fat finger"
>> syndrome, others have vision problems, to name just two. The last thing
>> they need or want is a tiny radio with minimal controls, each of which
>> serves two or three or four or five purposes. They favor a radio that has
>> many single or dual purpose knobs. They want bigger screens, the K4 screens
>> are too small.
>>
>> I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design
>> criteria. Enlarging the physical size would not be a huge cost driver.
>> Remember who your customers are.
>>
>> And when the Flex 6700 kicked the K3 out of first place in the Sherwood
>> ratings in 2014, the Koolaid drinkers on this reflector were heard to say,
>> "People put too much faith in numbers". Hypocrisy is thy name. I haven't
>> stopped laughing.
>>
>> This email pertains to only the second and third paragraphs of Wayne's
>> reply below.
>>
>> I wish Elecraft well with the K4 but I really think your minimalist/too
>> complex way of designing needs to change. You've probably already guessed
>> that I won't be a customer of the K4 as currently proposed. And you really,
>> really ought to improve this reflector...........
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Harry K1RSA
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
>> On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
>> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:03 PM
>> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
>> [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility
>>
>> Hi Buddy et al,
>>
>> We've definitely been thinking about this.
>>
>> There's a paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we reached a
>> point where we needed to embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned
>> with accessibility, as you know. I'll address alternatives in this email.
>>
>> As for the K4 specifically, its user interface is dependent in part on use
>> of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to integrate an
>> equivalent of the K3S, P3, and all of the new hardware/software required to
>> implement a direct-sampling radio. The use of a touch screen allows context
>> sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the K4 the
>> equivalent of a much larger radio without touch. The resulting compact size
>> is still compatible with portable use (4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and
>> power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft transceivers.
>>
>> Regarding accessibility, there are three possible approaches:
>>
>> 1. The K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch, will be
>> represented by a set of "2-letter" commands. This API will be fully public
>> as it is for our other transceivers. Presumably external devices or
>> computers will be able to immediately make use of these commands to effect
>> a flexible accessible interface.
>>
>> 2. In theory we could implement a large-target version of the LCD's touch
>> controls, with proximity-based audio feedback and no panadapter. This would
>> be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support, similar to that
>> needed for mobile/fixed app development. We don't have the staff to support
>> this, so we'd need to engage the wider community to find a developer with
>> suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an effort doesn't
>> exist at this time.
>>
>> 3. The K3S has very similar strong-signal performance and similar basic
>> features, without touch. Since many of the added features of the K4 are
>> panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very well find that the K3S is a viable
>> alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and K3S's on the market
>> over the next year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most
>> controls and are another non-touch alternative.
>>
>> I hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the K4's normal UI will
>> be helpful in most cases.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email] [KX3] <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>> [Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list] Hey Gary,
>>>
>>> I’m curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s post on the
>> blind-hams list. See also my response full of speculation (below). Wayne,
>> please feel free to comment on my comments and correct me where I erred:
>>> I’ve been beating the accessibility drum on the Elecraft reflector for
>> ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all touch screen
>> access, for that very reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their
>> tech support people in the past, and Wayne in emails to me, committed to
>> doing what they can in design parameters to make accessibility attainable,
>> and they have been super cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and
>> others who want to design accessibility tools.
>>> The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and it’s got a
>> client/server architecture, with network access available, so it seems to
>> me accessibility should be possible, even relatively easy, to implement.
>> Especially given that there are still a wide range of physical buttons and
>> knobs on board.
>>> And, unlike Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not only
>> available by email, but very responsive besides. If you’re really
>> interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth, write to Wayne
>> directly at [hidden email]. He really does answer email.
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>>>
>>>> On May 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email] [KX3] <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> could someone describe the front panel of the k4 with reference to
>> that of the k3? With the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability
>> for the blind operator.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> __._,_.___
>>> Posted by: Buddy Brannan <[hidden email]>
>>> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to
>> group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
>>> VISIT YOUR GROUP
>>> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>>>
>>> SPONSORED LINKS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>> __,_._,___
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>> ---
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Jim,
I feel like a newbie. Only 56 years for me. But I agree. When I haul the K3
to KP2M the only knobs I use when I am on frequency are the AF gain and RIT
for those who are off frequency.
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2019 2:29 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

On 5/24/2019 5:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> I suggest you double the size of the radio and change your design
criteria.

This is exactly the opposite of how I feel about radios -- I'll be 78 in the
fall, but I'm still an active guy dragging my gear to portable setups, and
my shack is a SO2R contesting setup (single op, two radios).
For both reasons, I am VERY happy with the light weight and small footprint
of the K3 (as well as it's predecessor, the K2, and relatives, the KX3 and
KX2). I don't want big knobs or even a lot of knobs -- when I'm operating,
the only knobs I'm using are the gain controls and whatever changes
frequency, including RIT or XIT.

But what do I know -- I've only been doing it for 63 years.

73, Jim K9YC

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WILLIE BABER

Re: Elecraft K4 and Accessibility

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

K4 should succeed in that it appears to build upon K3/P3/KRX3 (highly successful) with added color screen, direct-sampling SDR, and increased I/O. The same K3 "upgradeable approach" applies to K4. If you are not into contesting then K4 SDR may be all you wish (especially if you already have a K3 for contesting). You do have to pay for the upgradeable approach
even if you are not interested in upgrading.

This is the advantage of Elecraft IMHO. I purchased my first k3 in 2008, and it is as good in 2019 as my K3s. An upgradeable radio also helps with radio repair cost, in addition to NOT purchasing a new model radio just to obtain improved performance.

Before I ended up with K3/P3 so2r in 2015, I went through a new board to improve K3 audio, the replacement of the pins affecting the KPA3 module, and new synthesizers (plus a few minor mods). My K3 eventually replaced ft1000mp, Omni VI, and (finally) Orion.

I'm satisfied using K3 so2r more so than at any point in the past. Based on my past experience I suspect K4 has a bright future!

73, Will, wj9b
PS: This is not the same as saying that I do not like other radios. I still have Orion and a broken Omni VI that I hope to repair.

CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and II,:
http://cwops.org

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 5/26/19, Rick Tavan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and Accessibility
To: [hidden email]
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email], [hidden email]
Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019, 12:55 PM

Wow. Your preference seems to be
in a minority, Harry, although I have to
admit that my opinion is subjective and based
mainly on what I've read on
this
reflector which may well be biased by folks like me who
*like* the K3.
I think Elecraft retained in
the K4 many of the design points that made the
K3 very successful and enduring, including its
light weight and small size
which are two
major complaints on your list. So it may be a chocolate
vs.
vanilla situation - some people (like
me) value those characteristics while
other
people (like you) dislike them. Of course, you're right
that many
prospective buyers are aging and
some may come to dislike smaller knobs, I
for one still find the knobs and buttons plenty
big enough and I'm now 70
years old. I
once measured the K3 button size and spacing against my
prior
favorite rig, the FT-1000MP, and found
them practically the same. I never
had
trouble operating the K3 and its menu structure was logical,
rarely
needed, and self-documenting. The new
K4 screen is plenty large enough for
me and
comparable to many current, competitive radios'. It can
also be
blown up to as large as you like
through the addition of an in expensive,
external, HDMI monitor or a tablet. I've
seen it and it was gorgeous.

So you're certainly correct that some
people like big, heavy radios with
"substantial" knobs and they may not
buy the K4. Others like radios they
can lift
without back strain, carry to vacation homes and field
sites,
operate remotely with minimal
external hardware, and expect to survive
through upgrades for a decade. Many of them,
like me, have been K3 fans for
12 years or
so and will be delighted to buy the K4. The market will
decide.
I think the K4 will be highly
successful and I'm rooting for it. We'll see.

73,

/Rick N6XI
--

Rick Tavan
Truckee, CA

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:00
PM <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Wayne and
interested others,
>
>
Way back when, I bought a loaded K3. I believe the S/N was
around 4K? It
> was back in the day when
almost every DXpedition was using K3's so it was
> obviously the radio to own. (Around 2009?)
It was at the top of the
> Sherwood
ratings. Owner's bragged, incessantly, about its
Sherwood rating.
>
>
After a period of time I grew to really dislike that radio.
The audio was
> just plain awful and the
man/machine interface was the worst I have ever
> seen. I detest bar graphs. I suppose if
you play at ham radio 8 hours a
> day,
seven days a week, the interface is "normal", even
usable. For those
> of us who might get
on the air for an hour or two a week, the controls were
> a mystery. Tap this button to do this,
hold the same button for three
> seconds
to do that, the list goes on. NOTHING was intuitive. It did
not
> help that it was an incredibly
ugly, too light and unsubstantial, radio.
> It's looks may have been barely
acceptable when first introduced but it
>
aged badly, rapidly. Over a ten year period it's price
has become a real
> problem.
>
> There were many, many
questions on this reflector regarding the controls,
> the same questions about the same
controls, over and over and over again.
>
That should have been a very large hint that the controls
should be
> massively improved in any new
radio.
>
> I sold my
K3 and moved on to the big Japanese three, ANAN, and Flex,
over
> the years. All had many, fairly
easy to understand, controls. All were far,
> far more usable than the K3. Both the ANAN
and Flex service departments are
> as
good as Elecraft's.
>
> Eventually I left the Elecraft reflector,
and that is a whole other
> story.....
>
> Last week the K4 was
announced so I rejoined the reflector. It sounded
> like a really great radio. Sadly, I have
concluded it will be a dud, mostly
>
because it is designed with the same philosophy as the K3
was, a small,
> compact, easily
transportable radio, "a hallmark of Elecraft
transceivers",
> to quote you,
Wayne. From all that I have read, the controls will be
even
> more complex.
>
> Ham radio operators
are an aging group. Some suffer from the "fat
finger"
> syndrome, others have
vision problems, to name just two. The last thing
> they need or want is a tiny radio with
minimal controls, each of which
> serves
two or three or four or five purposes. They favor a radio
that has
> many single or dual purpose
knobs. They want bigger screens, the K4 screens
> are too small.
>
> I suggest you double the size of the radio
and change your design
> criteria.
Enlarging the physical size would not be a huge cost
driver.
> Remember who your customers
are.
>
> And when the
Flex 6700 kicked the K3 out of first place in the
Sherwood
> ratings in 2014, the Koolaid
drinkers on this reflector were heard to say,
> "People put too much faith in
numbers". Hypocrisy is thy name. I haven't
> stopped laughing.
>
> This email pertains to only the second and
third paragraphs of Wayne's
> reply
below.
>
> I wish
Elecraft well with the K4 but I really think your
minimalist/too
> complex way of designing
needs to change. You've probably already guessed
> that I won't be a customer of the K4
as currently proposed. And you really,
>
really ought to improve this reflector...........
>
> 73,
>
> Harry K1RSA
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
<[hidden email]>
> On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:03 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>;
[hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft K4 and
Accessibility
>
> Hi
Buddy et al,
>
>
We've definitely been thinking about this.
>
> There's a
paradigm shift going on in transceiver design, and we
reached a
> point where we needed to
embrace it. This shift is not entirely aligned
> with accessibility, as you know. I'll
address alternatives in this email.
>
> As for the K4 specifically, its user
interface is dependent in part on use
>
of the touch screen. This was simply the only way to
integrate an
> equivalent of the K3S, P3,
and all of the new hardware/software required to
> implement a direct-sampling radio. The use
of a touch screen allows context
>
sensitivity (physical overloading) for controls, making the
K4 the
> equivalent of a much larger
radio without touch. The resulting compact size
> is still compatible with portable use
(4.5" x 13.5" x 11", 10 pounds, and
> power-efficient), a hallmark of Elecraft
transceivers.
>
>
Regarding accessibility, there are three possible
approaches:
>
> 1. The
K4's entire complement of controls, both hard and touch,
will be
> represented by a set of
"2-letter" commands. This API will be fully
public
> as it is for our other
transceivers. Presumably external devices or
> computers will be able to immediately make
use of these commands to effect
> a
flexible accessible interface.
>
> 2. In theory we could implement a
large-target version of the LCD's touch
> controls, with proximity-based audio
feedback and no panadapter. This would
>
be a very ambitious project requiring ongoing support,
similar to that
> needed for mobile/fixed
app development. We don't have the staff to support
> this, so we'd need to engage the wider
community to find a developer with
>
suitable skills and motivation. The API or spec for such an
effort doesn't
> exist at this
time.
>
> 3. The K3S
has very similar strong-signal performance and similar
basic
> features, without touch. Since
many of the added features of the K4 are
> panadapter-centric, a blind ham may very
well find that the K3S is a viable
>
alternative. No doubt there will be more used K3's and
K3S's on the market
> over the next
year. The KX3 and KX2 provide audio CW feedback on most
> controls and are another non-touch
alternative.
>
> I
hope the alternatives I've suggested to use of the
K4's normal UI will
> be helpful in
most cases.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 24, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Buddy Brannan [hidden email]
[KX3] <
> [hidden email]>
wrote:
> >
> >
[Sorry, sent this to Gary instead of the list] Hey Gary,
> >
> > I’m
curious about this as well, as are others…see K8HSY’s
post on the
> blind-hams list. See also
my response full of speculation (below). Wayne,
> please feel free to comment on my comments
and correct me where I erred:
> >
> > I’ve been beating the accessibility
drum on the Elecraft reflector for
>
ages, and Wayne has assured that they would not go to all
touch screen
> access, for that very
reason. Elecraft has, in the person of one of their
> tech support people in the past, and Wayne
in emails to me, committed to
> doing
what they can in design parameters to make accessibility
attainable,
> and they have been super
cooperative with people like the Hampod folks and
> others who want to design accessibility
tools.
> >
> >
The K4 has a full GNU/Linux computer built into it, and
it’s got a
> client/server
architecture, with network access available, so it seems
to
> me accessibility should be possible,
even relatively easy, to implement.
>
Especially given that there are still a wide range of
physical buttons and
> knobs on board.
> >
> > And, unlike
Yaecomwoodlincotec, the principals at Elecraft are not
only
> available by email, but very
responsive besides. If you’re really
>
interested in a perspective direct from the horse’s mouth,
write to Wayne
> directly at [hidden email].
He really does answer email.
> >
> > Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> > Email: [hidden email]
> > Mobile: (814) 431-0962
> >
> > > On May
23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Gary Lee [hidden email]
[KX3] <
> [hidden email]>
wrote:
> > >
>
> > could someone describe the front panel of the k4
with reference to
> that of the k3? With
the added touch screen, I am wondering about usability
> for the blind operator.
> > >
> >
>
> > >
>
>
> >
> >
__._,_.___
> > Posted by: Buddy
Brannan <[hidden email]>
> > Reply via web post •
Reply to sender    •    Reply to
> group •    Start a New Topic
      •    Messages in this topic (2)
> > VISIT YOUR GROUP
>
> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
> >
> > SPONSORED
LINKS
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> > __,_._,___
>
>
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>
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