FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published In Federal Register On 03 February 2012

[Mike Morrow-3]

The new FCC 60 meter band rules that were announced on 18 November 2012

 http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db1118/FCC-11-171A1.pdf

have finally been published in the Federal Register today, 03 February 2012

 http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-02-03/pdf/2012-2477.pdf

That means they become effective 30 days from today, on 04 March 2012.

Summary:

(1) Use of the existing 5366.5 kHz (carrier) is removed, replaced by 5357.0 kHz
    (carrier, for all modes except CW).

(2) Maximum ERP raised from 50 to 100 watts PEP.

(3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to the
    existing USB mode.  NOTE: CW mode carrier must be on the assigned frequency,
    of the authorized channel, not 1.5 kHz below the assigned frequency as it is
    for other authorized modes.  That makes a significant difference when
    switching between CW and any other mode!

Mike / KK5F
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[Terry Schieler]

And license class limited to General, Advanced and Extra (as I read it).

Terry  W0FM

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrow [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 8:05 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published In Federal Register On 03 February 2012

The new FCC 60 meter band rules that were announced on 18 November 2012

 http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db1118/FCC-11-171A1.pdf

have finally been published in the Federal Register today, 03 February 2012

 http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-02-03/pdf/2012-2477.pdf

That means they become effective 30 days from today, on 04 March 2012.

Summary:

(1) Use of the existing 5366.5 kHz (carrier) is removed, replaced by 5357.0 kHz
    (carrier, for all modes except CW).

(2) Maximum ERP raised from 50 to 100 watts PEP.

(3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to the
    existing USB mode.  NOTE: CW mode carrier must be on the assigned frequency,
    of the authorized channel, not 1.5 kHz below the assigned frequency as it is
    for other authorized modes.  That makes a significant difference when
    switching between CW and any other mode!

Mike / KK5F


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[Mike Morrow-3]

I wrote:

> The new FCC 60 meter band rules ...
>
> have finally been published in the Federal Register today, 03 February 2012
>
> http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-02-03/pdf/2012-2477.pdf
>
> That means they become effective 30 days from today, on 04 March 2012.

The Ordering Clause of the published rule makes this rule effective on 05 March 2012,
31 days after FR publishing.  That's because 04 March 2012 is a Sunday.

Mike / KK5F

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[Terry Conboy]

Thanks for the update, Mike.
Just so nobody get in trouble, the effective date is March 5, 2012, as
specified in the notice.  (I guess they don't know it's a leap year.)
73, Terry N6RY

On 2012-02-03 6:05 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:

> The new FCC 60 meter band rules that were announced on 18 November 2012
>
>   http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db1118/FCC-11-171A1.pdf
>
> have finally been published in the Federal Register today, 03 February 2012
>
>   http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-02-03/pdf/2012-2477.pdf
>
> That means they become effective 30 days from today, on 04 March 2012.
>
> Summary:
>
> (1) Use of the existing 5366.5 kHz (carrier) is removed, replaced by 5357.0 kHz
>      (carrier, for all modes except CW).
>
> (2) Maximum ERP raised from 50 to 100 watts PEP.
>
> (3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to the
>      existing USB mode.  NOTE: CW mode carrier must be on the assigned frequency,
>      of the authorized channel, not 1.5 kHz below the assigned frequency as it is
>      for other authorized modes.  That makes a significant difference when
>      switching between CW and any other mode!
>
> Mike / KK5F
>

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[Dave New, N8SBE]

Did I miss the conversation about how the K3 will handle the rule
changes?  Firmware update in the works, anyone, or do we have to
manually program all the weird mode offsets somehow ourselves, using
macros?  Makes my head hurt...

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE

On 2/3/2012 2:23 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:

> I wrote:
>
>> The new FCC 60 meter band rules ...
>>
>> have finally been published in the Federal Register today, 03 February 2012
>>
>> http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-02-03/pdf/2012-2477.pdf
>>
>> That means they become effective 30 days from today, on 04 March 2012.
> The Ordering Clause of the published rule makes this rule effective on 05 March 2012,
> 31 days after FR publishing.  That's because 04 March 2012 is a Sunday.
>
> Mike / KK5F
>

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[Mike Morrow-3]

> Did I miss the conversation about how the K3 will handle the rule
> changes?  Firmware update in the works, anyone, or do we have to
> manually program all the weird mode offsets somehow ourselves, using
> macros?

For my non-Elecraft HF rig, I just performed the obvious and simple.
I programmed ten memories with the following to meet all the requirements
of the new rules:

CH.  FREQ-kHz   MODE
01   5330.5     USB
02   5332.0     CW
03   5346.5     USB
04   5348.0     CW
05   5357.0     USB
06   5358.5     CW
07   5371.5     USB
08   5373.0     CW
09   5403.5     USB
10   5405.0     CW

I don't know what's in store for the K3 and KX3.

73,
Mike / KK5F
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[wayne burdick]

It's on my list. I want to be the first one to make a 60-meter CW QSO  
anyway :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 3, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave New wrote:

> Did I miss the conversation about how the K3 will handle the rule
> changes?  Firmware update in the works, anyone, or do we have to
> manually program all the weird mode offsets somehow ourselves, using
> macros?  Makes my head hurt...


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[Rick WA6NHC]

Wayne,

Post when you'll be on if you can.  You're WELL within my 'local' coverage
area here in the foothills.  Lessee, that starts at 4 PM Pacific time on 4
Mar 12 (local date)...

You'll have to tolerate keyboard code, I've never been much on CW otherwise.

Rick wa6nhc

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Burdick

It's on my list. I want to be the first one to make a 60-meter CW QSO  
anyway :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 3, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave New wrote:

> Did I miss the conversation about how the K3 will handle the rule
> changes?  Firmware update in the works, anyone, or do we have to
> manually program all the weird mode offsets somehow ourselves, using
> macros?  Makes my head hurt...

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[w5tvw]

Hey guys!

I am planning on trying CW for the first time on 60 meters on the new
channel 3 on 5358.5.  Just hope the PACTOR stuff doesn't jump on that
channel and "claim" it.

It looks like there isn't ANY "normal" RTTY authorized, only PSK31.  It
would be hard to run "normal" RTTY with only a 60 Hz. bandwidth.

73,

Sandy W5TVW

Wonder if someone would be ready for a 60 meter RF card for the K1?


-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Burdick
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 5:01 PM
To: Dave New
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published In
FederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction

It's on my list. I want to be the first one to make a 60-meter CW QSO
anyway :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 3, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave New wrote:

> Did I miss the conversation about how the K3 will handle the rule
> changes?  Firmware update in the works, anyone, or do we have to
> manually program all the weird mode offsets somehow ourselves, using
> macros?  Makes my head hurt...


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-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4784 - Release Date: 02/03/12

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[Rick WA6NHC]

Hi Sandy,

If I read it correctly, we can use RTTY, Pactor and PSK modes (using USB if
AFSK) and are limited to 2.8 KHz.  It said we were NOT limited to those
modes for data as it would suppress experimentation.

Since PSK is usually sound card based, keeping everything within the
required 2.8 KHz means there will be less space (than say 14.07 MHz) for
shared channel use.

The one caveat I see is if one uses the FSK (or PSK in a K3) mode of the
radio.  You have to know if it is displaying the suppressed carrier
frequency OR is it displaying the MARK frequency and adjust accordingly?

For CW, use the channel center frequency (up 1500 Hz from the suppressed
carrier frequency).

Comments?

Rick WA6NHC

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandy

Hey guys!

I am planning on trying CW for the first time on 60 meters on the new
channel 3 on 5358.5.  Just hope the PACTOR stuff doesn't jump on that
channel and "claim" it.

It looks like there isn't ANY "normal" RTTY authorized, only PSK31.  It
would be hard to run "normal" RTTY with only a 60 Hz. bandwidth.

73,

Sandy W5TVW

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[w5tvw]

Firstly, if you read the Summary of the R&O, it specifically states that for
FSK emission designator is: 60H0J2D.  60 Hz being the bandwidth of the PSK
emissions.  Under ideal conditions, I would suppose that about 1.5 khz of
space would be usable at least with a normal SSB transceiver on PSK-31.  If
the tones are much below 0.5khz you run into some distortion that seems to
prevail on some transceivers and cause spurious signals, ditto above 2 khz.
No doubt some rigs might work OK, some might not.  Still several
simultaneous QSO's could be accommodated in say a 1.5 =2 khz bandwidth with
no problem if there wasn't a "Power hog" trying to outdo everyone else on
the channel.  One MUST be a "Good neighbor" and not run excessive power
(even under the 100w PEP ERP requirement) in order for everyone to have his
QSO with adjoining stations operating.  A "normal" RTTY station would be
much broader than allowed by the emission designator.  PSK-31 can be a very
delightful and reliable mode but one "Lid" can wreck a whole band of PSK
channels using 2 khz of band space.  97.307 specifically assigns the 60H0J2B
bandwidth designator in the addition/revision rules in the Federal Register
for part 97.  So it seems that PSK-31 WOULD be able to use more than one
QSO in the channel space allotted  per channel as long as there wasn't any
spurious "crud" outside or inside the assigned channel.  Most of the
waterfall displays have frequency calibrations which can be very close if
one sets up his transceiver's frequency correctly.  The space used by each
user of PSK-31 is limited to what the "emission designator" specifies and
not the 2.8 khz bandwidth as is specified for PACTOR data.  Being much
narrower than PACTOR several PSK-31 co-users should be possible per channel.

For CW the R&O also says the CW signal will be 1.5 Khz above the suppressed
carrier frequency used by the USB mode and one would assume that it would
have to be within + or - 75 Hz of that center frequency.  This would pretty
much limit each channel to one CW QSO per channel at any one time.
(emission designator for CW is: 150HA1A)

Just an observation.  We will find out what happens when March 5th comes and
the new emissions are tried out.  There probably WILL be some growing pains
and also "newbies" who don't understand the problems that will pop up in
"channelized" spectrum space in ham radio.

I'm looking forward to operating both CW (and PSK-31 eventually when I get
my interface for the FT-990 xcvr built)   It should be fun and very useful
having these additions to just voice modes on 60 meters!

73,

Sandy W5TVW


-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Bates
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:14 PM
To: 'Sandy'
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published
InFederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction

Hi Sandy,

If I read it correctly, we can use RTTY, Pactor and PSK modes (using USB if
AFSK) and are limited to 2.8 KHz.  It said we were NOT limited to those
modes for data as it would suppress experimentation.

Since PSK is usually sound card based, keeping everything within the
required 2.8 KHz means there will be less space (than say 14.07 MHz) for
shared channel use.

The one caveat I see is if one uses the FSK (or PSK in a K3) mode of the
radio.  You have to know if it is displaying the suppressed carrier
frequency OR is it displaying the MARK frequency and adjust accordingly?

For CW, use the channel center frequency (up 1500 Hz from the suppressed
carrier frequency).

Comments?

Rick WA6NHC

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandy

Hey guys!

I am planning on trying CW for the first time on 60 meters on the new
channel 3 on 5358.5.  Just hope the PACTOR stuff doesn't jump on that
channel and "claim" it.

It looks like there isn't ANY "normal" RTTY authorized, only PSK31.  It
would be hard to run "normal" RTTY with only a 60 Hz. bandwidth.

73,

Sandy W5TVW



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4786 - Release Date: 02/03/12

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[Dave New, N8SBE]

Now I'm really confused.  I thought I had it straight in my head, after
slogging through all the info in the ARRL posts, etc., that we would NOT
be able to have more than one PSK (or CW) QSO going on in a given
channel, because we are required to always put the one PSK or CW signal
at the same offset within that channel.

I remember being disappointed in the idea that we wouldn't be able to
use a single channel or two as a virtual CW or PSK "mini-band", thus
making much more efficient use of the limited spectrum being made
available to us.

The conclusion I reached was that even if that would be the most
efficient use of the spectrum, that it would likely drive the primary
users nuts trying to figure out how to shut up a whole crowd of users
when they wanted to use the channel, thus the reason for barring us from
stuffing the channel with multiple narrow-band signals.

Did I somehow misread the whole thing?

Thanks,

-- Dave, N8SBE

On 2/3/2012 10:58 PM, Sandy wrote:

> Firstly, if you read the Summary of the R&O, it specifically states that for
> FSK emission designator is: 60H0J2D.  60 Hz being the bandwidth of the PSK
> emissions.  Under ideal conditions, I would suppose that about 1.5 khz of
> space would be usable at least with a normal SSB transceiver on PSK-31.  If
> the tones are much below 0.5khz you run into some distortion that seems to
> prevail on some transceivers and cause spurious signals, ditto above 2 khz.
> No doubt some rigs might work OK, some might not.  Still several
> simultaneous QSO's could be accommodated in say a 1.5 =2 khz bandwidth with
> no problem if there wasn't a "Power hog" trying to outdo everyone else on
> the channel.  One MUST be a "Good neighbor" and not run excessive power
> (even under the 100w PEP ERP requirement) in order for everyone to have his
> QSO with adjoining stations operating.  A "normal" RTTY station would be
> much broader than allowed by the emission designator.  PSK-31 can be a very
> delightful and reliable mode but one "Lid" can wreck a whole band of PSK
> channels using 2 khz of band space.  97.307 specifically assigns the 60H0J2B
> bandwidth designator in the addition/revision rules in the Federal Register
> for part 97.  So it seems that PSK-31 WOULD be able to use more than one
> QSO in the channel space allotted  per channel as long as there wasn't any
> spurious "crud" outside or inside the assigned channel.  Most of the
> waterfall displays have frequency calibrations which can be very close if
> one sets up his transceiver's frequency correctly.  The space used by each
> user of PSK-31 is limited to what the "emission designator" specifies and
> not the 2.8 khz bandwidth as is specified for PACTOR data.  Being much
> narrower than PACTOR several PSK-31 co-users should be possible per channel.
>
> For CW the R&O also says the CW signal will be 1.5 Khz above the suppressed
> carrier frequency used by the USB mode and one would assume that it would
> have to be within + or - 75 Hz of that center frequency.  This would pretty
> much limit each channel to one CW QSO per channel at any one time.
> (emission designator for CW is: 150HA1A)
>
> Just an observation.  We will find out what happens when March 5th comes and
> the new emissions are tried out.  There probably WILL be some growing pains
> and also "newbies" who don't understand the problems that will pop up in
> "channelized" spectrum space in ham radio.
>
> I'm looking forward to operating both CW (and PSK-31 eventually when I get
> my interface for the FT-990 xcvr built)   It should be fun and very useful
> having these additions to just voice modes on 60 meters!
>
> 73,
>
> Sandy W5TVW
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Bates
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:14 PM
> To: 'Sandy'
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published
> InFederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction
>
> Hi Sandy,
>
> If I read it correctly, we can use RTTY, Pactor and PSK modes (using USB if
> AFSK) and are limited to 2.8 KHz.  It said we were NOT limited to those
> modes for data as it would suppress experimentation.
>
> Since PSK is usually sound card based, keeping everything within the
> required 2.8 KHz means there will be less space (than say 14.07 MHz) for
> shared channel use.
>
> The one caveat I see is if one uses the FSK (or PSK in a K3) mode of the
> radio.  You have to know if it is displaying the suppressed carrier
> frequency OR is it displaying the MARK frequency and adjust accordingly?
>
> For CW, use the channel center frequency (up 1500 Hz from the suppressed
> carrier frequency).
>
> Comments?
>
> Rick WA6NHC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sandy
>
> Hey guys!
>
> I am planning on trying CW for the first time on 60 meters on the new
> channel 3 on 5358.5.  Just hope the PACTOR stuff doesn't jump on that
> channel and "claim" it.
>
> It looks like there isn't ANY "normal" RTTY authorized, only PSK31.  It
> would be hard to run "normal" RTTY with only a 60 Hz. bandwidth.
>
> 73,
>
> Sandy W5TVW
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4786 - Release Date: 02/03/12
>
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[k6dgw]

I think we all need to be careful.  In the case of USB, we put our
"suppressed carrier" [i.e. dial reading on a K3] 1.5 KHz below the
authorized center frequency.  The USB energy is above that and fills the
2.8 MHz channel, and it's "one QSO per channel."

For CW, we are told to put our keyed RF signal *on* the channel center
frequency.  There is only one "center frequency" per channel, so again,
it's "one QSO per channel."  CW and USB seem pretty clear.

The two data modes aren't quite as clear.  "Data", as the FCC uses it is
a 2K80J2D emission which wiki.radioreference.com defines as "HF
PACTOR-III."  Again, the emission fills the channel and it's "one QSO
per channel."  The FCC's "RTTY" is a 60H0J2B emission which
radioreference.com defines as PSK31, which precludes what we hams define
as RTTY [45.5 baud 170 Hz shift FSK].

What's not clear is where to place your PSK31 signal.  If your PSK31
signal extends upward from your dial frequency, then the R&O seems to
say you put your dial frequency 1.5 KHz below the channel center
frequency.  Where you actually transmit your PSK31 signal above that
doesn't appear to be specified as long as it isn't 2.8 KHz or more,
which is a little strange.  Given the "one QSO per channel" philosophy
for CW, Phone, and PACTOR-III, I would think that they would want my
PSK31 signal centered in the channel and it would be "one PSK31 QSO per
channel" like the other emissions.  It just doesn't say that explicitly.

There are several references in the R&O to various techniques for
minimizing interference to Federal users, and that seems to be a driving
factor behind the "one QSO per channel" requirement.  If it's just me
and you conversing, there will be natural, frequent breaks for a primary
user to claim the channel.  If the 60H0J2B emission type is intended to
allow multiple QSO's within the channel, as happens now above 14070,
there will be no breaks and no way for a primary user to claim the channel.

I don't have the answer, if someone does I'd really like to hear it, but
do I think we all need to be careful as 5 March rolls around.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 2/3/2012 7:14 PM, Rick Bates wrote:
> Hi Sandy,
>
> If I read it correctly, we can use RTTY, Pactor and PSK modes (using USB if
> AFSK) and are limited to 2.8 KHz.  It said we were NOT limited to those
> modes for data as it would suppress experimentation.

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[hf4me]

Fred,

I am glad you stated the "their RTTY" =  "our PSK" as I had realized that it
wasn't RTTY as we know it but did not know it was PSK which I had assumed
was allowed but with the question of one signal vs. many.

I have the same questions and understandings, but...  One item you didn't
explicitly state is the "dial frequency" for CW operation.  Let me make a
statement and see if I understand the CW usage settings.

For those NOT using a PC and digital display program, the dial would be set
to the exact "zero beat frequency" of the station you ware responding to.

Does the digital operator using a waterfall in CW mode (using HRD for
example) set the received signal for 600 Hz (if that is what they have set
in the radio for tone frequency) below (if in USB) in order to display the
received signal at the "plus 600" marker on the waterfall so they will
transmit on his same frequency?

Thanks es 73, de Jim KG0KP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published
InFederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction

>I think we all need to be careful.  In the case of USB, we put our
> "suppressed carrier" [i.e. dial reading on a K3] 1.5 KHz below the
> authorized center frequency.  The USB energy is above that and fills the
> 2.8 MHz channel, and it's "one QSO per channel."
>
> For CW, we are told to put our keyed RF signal *on* the channel center
> frequency.  There is only one "center frequency" per channel, so again,
> it's "one QSO per channel."  CW and USB seem pretty clear.
>
> The two data modes aren't quite as clear.  "Data", as the FCC uses it is
> a 2K80J2D emission which wiki.radioreference.com defines as "HF
> PACTOR-III."  Again, the emission fills the channel and it's "one QSO
> per channel."  The FCC's "RTTY" is a 60H0J2B emission which
> radioreference.com defines as PSK31, which precludes what we hams define
> as RTTY [45.5 baud 170 Hz shift FSK].
>
> What's not clear is where to place your PSK31 signal.  If your PSK31
> signal extends upward from your dial frequency, then the R&O seems to
> say you put your dial frequency 1.5 KHz below the channel center
> frequency.  Where you actually transmit your PSK31 signal above that
> doesn't appear to be specified as long as it isn't 2.8 KHz or more,
> which is a little strange.  Given the "one QSO per channel" philosophy
> for CW, Phone, and PACTOR-III, I would think that they would want my
> PSK31 signal centered in the channel and it would be "one PSK31 QSO per
> channel" like the other emissions.  It just doesn't say that explicitly.
>
> There are several references in the R&O to various techniques for
> minimizing interference to Federal users, and that seems to be a driving
> factor behind the "one QSO per channel" requirement.  If it's just me
> and you conversing, there will be natural, frequent breaks for a primary
> user to claim the channel.  If the 60H0J2B emission type is intended to
> allow multiple QSO's within the channel, as happens now above 14070,
> there will be no breaks and no way for a primary user to claim the
> channel.
>
> I don't have the answer, if someone does I'd really like to hear it, but
> do I think we all need to be careful as 5 March rolls around.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 2/3/2012 7:14 PM, Rick Bates wrote:
>> Hi Sandy,
>>
>> If I read it correctly, we can use RTTY, Pactor and PSK modes (using USB
>> if
>> AFSK) and are limited to 2.8 KHz.  It said we were NOT limited to those
>> modes for data as it would suppress experimentation.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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[Rick WA6NHC]

First off, I'm not a lawyer (and reading it provided a headache) but my
interpretation is:

If USB, select the suppressed carrier on your display (K3).
If CW, go to the CHANNEL CENTER (up 1.5 KHz from suppressed carrier).
If PSK (RTTY) or PACTOR III, set as per USB; the suppressed carrier.

*BUT* make darned sure that your 'data' mode uses USB, not LSB and that your
display shows suppressed carrier in USB.  (i.e. when in FSK, my TS0940
displays the MARK frequency, which would be WRONG.)

Answering a call on exactly the same frequency (in CW) is no guarantee of
being correct (or legal).  You are responsible for YOUR station only.

Pactor III will consume most if not all of the bandwidth, one user per
channel at a time.

Now there is no (obvious) mention of what tones must be used for PSK; there
is only mention of bandwidth (2.8 KHz from suppressed carrier on the UPPER
side).  So if one station were to use say something in the 500 Hz audio
range while another were to use the 900 Hz range while a third used
something in the 1200 Hz range; each of those bandwidths is WELL within the
2.8 KHz limit and *should* be legal while allowing three or more QSO's at
the same time.  If we are limited to using tones in the 1500 Hz range, it
limits us to one station at a time.  I didn't see such limitations.

So since it is unclear, one must pay special attention to the bandwidth and
audio frequencies used to ensure the signal is well within the channel
limits.

I would suspect that this will be hashed about by numerous folks for the
next month and hopefully the FCC (informally) or ARRL will clarify before
there is an issue.  

In the meantime, it's mostly a guessing game unless one understands the
inverted reverse convoluted legalese used in the R&O and resulting post in
the Federal Register.  In a perfect world, they'd say "Here is the channel
bandwidth, don't go beyond the edges."  They didn't.

This appears to be a grand experiment to see if we can share NTIA channels
as well as offering a band between 80 and 40 meters for hurricane nets etc.
I would suggest EXTREME caution for CW and data ops until this shakes out.
If in doubt, don't.

Rick wa6nhc

Caveat:  You're on your own.  Period.  ;-)


-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Jensen

I think we all need to be careful.  In the case of USB, we put our
"suppressed carrier" [i.e. dial reading on a K3] 1.5 KHz below the
authorized center frequency.  The USB energy is above that and fills the
2.8 MHz channel, and it's "one QSO per channel."

For CW, we are told to put our keyed RF signal *on* the channel center
frequency.  There is only one "center frequency" per channel, so again,
it's "one QSO per channel."  CW and USB seem pretty clear.

The two data modes aren't quite as clear.  "Data", as the FCC uses it is
a 2K80J2D emission which wiki.radioreference.com defines as "HF
PACTOR-III."  Again, the emission fills the channel and it's "one QSO
per channel."  The FCC's "RTTY" is a 60H0J2B emission which
radioreference.com defines as PSK31, which precludes what we hams define
as RTTY [45.5 baud 170 Hz shift FSK].

What's not clear is where to place your PSK31 signal.  If your PSK31
signal extends upward from your dial frequency, then the R&O seems to
say you put your dial frequency 1.5 KHz below the channel center
frequency.  Where you actually transmit your PSK31 signal above that
doesn't appear to be specified as long as it isn't 2.8 KHz or more,
which is a little strange.  Given the "one QSO per channel" philosophy
for CW, Phone, and PACTOR-III, I would think that they would want my
PSK31 signal centered in the channel and it would be "one PSK31 QSO per
channel" like the other emissions.  It just doesn't say that explicitly.

There are several references in the R&O to various techniques for
minimizing interference to Federal users, and that seems to be a driving
factor behind the "one QSO per channel" requirement.  If it's just me
and you conversing, there will be natural, frequent breaks for a primary
user to claim the channel.  If the 60H0J2B emission type is intended to
allow multiple QSO's within the channel, as happens now above 14070,
there will be no breaks and no way for a primary user to claim the channel.

I don't have the answer, if someone does I'd really like to hear it, but
do I think we all need to be careful as 5 March rolls around.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 2/3/2012 7:14 PM, Rick Bates wrote:
> Hi Sandy,
>
> If I read it correctly, we can use RTTY, Pactor and PSK modes (using USB
if
> AFSK) and are limited to 2.8 KHz.  It said we were NOT limited to those
> modes for data as it would suppress experimentation.

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[w5tvw]

>>>>>See remarks included below...

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave New
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:55 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published
InFederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction

Now I'm really confused.  I thought I had it straight in my head, after
slogging through all the info in the ARRL posts, etc., that we would NOT
be able to have more than one PSK (or CW) QSO going on in a given
channel, because we are required to always put the one PSK or CW signal
at the same offset within that channel.

>>>>>NO!  The PSK-31 signal is not required to stay on a specific frequency.
>>>>>It can be anywhere from the "channel" low frequency edge plus 100 Hz.
>>>>>up to the high frequency "edge" of the channel minus 100 Hz.  (the
>>>>>confines of the 2.8 Khz channel width.  (The channel is 3 khz wide, but
>>>>>there is a 100 Hz. "Guard band" at the top and bottom of the channel
>>>>>where no signal is emitted within.)

>>>>>On the other hand, the CW carrier frequency "IS" specified and being in
>>>>>the dead center of the channel and nowhere else!

I remember being disappointed in the idea that we wouldn't be able to
use a single channel or two as a virtual CW or PSK "mini-band", thus
making much more efficient use of the limited spectrum being made
available to us.


>>>>>No, only the center frequency is available.  One QSO per channel on CW,
>>>>>unless band conditions allow two pairs of stations to use the same
>>>>>frequency if they are not interfering with each other.


The conclusion I reached was that even if that would be the most
efficient use of the spectrum, that it would likely drive the primary
users nuts trying to figure out how to shut up a whole crowd of users
when they wanted to use the channel, thus the reason for barring us from
stuffing the channel with multiple narrow-band signals.

Did I somehow misread the whole thing?

>>>>>>I see nothing in the info in the federal regiaster poosting about just
>>>>>>a single user at once per channel.  (Unless there is something there I
>>>>>>missed!)

73,

Sandy W5TVW

: 2112/4788 - Release Date: 02/04/12

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[w5tvw]

All correct!  It makes no difference what frequency you use on PSK!  As long
as the pair of tones are within the 2.8 Khz bandwidth of the "Channel".
There is a 100 Hz. "guard band at the top and bottom edges of the "Channel"
therefore the channel is only 2.8 Khz wide.

Sandy W5TVW

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Jensen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:48 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published
InFederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction

I think we all need to be careful.  In the case of USB, we put our
"suppressed carrier" [i.e. dial reading on a K3] 1.5 KHz below the
authorized center frequency.  The USB energy is above that and fills the
2.8 MHz channel, and it's "one QSO per channel."

For CW, we are told to put our keyed RF signal *on* the channel center
frequency.  There is only one "center frequency" per channel, so again,
it's "one QSO per channel."  CW and USB seem pretty clear.

The two data modes aren't quite as clear.  "Data", as the FCC uses it is
a 2K80J2D emission which wiki.radioreference.com defines as "HF
PACTOR-III."  Again, the emission fills the channel and it's "one QSO
per channel."  The FCC's "RTTY" is a 60H0J2B emission which
radioreference.com defines as PSK31, which precludes what we hams define
as RTTY [45.5 baud 170 Hz shift FSK].

What's not clear is where to place your PSK31 signal.  If your PSK31
signal extends upward from your dial frequency, then the R&O seems to
say you put your dial frequency 1.5 KHz below the channel center
frequency.  Where you actually transmit your PSK31 signal above that
doesn't appear to be specified as long as it isn't 2.8 KHz or more,
which is a little strange.  Given the "one QSO per channel" philosophy
for CW, Phone, and PACTOR-III, I would think that they would want my
PSK31 signal centered in the channel and it would be "one PSK31 QSO per
channel" like the other emissions.  It just doesn't say that explicitly.

There are several references in the R&O to various techniques for
minimizing interference to Federal users, and that seems to be a driving
factor behind the "one QSO per channel" requirement.  If it's just me
and you conversing, there will be natural, frequent breaks for a primary
user to claim the channel.  If the 60H0J2B emission type is intended to
allow multiple QSO's within the channel, as happens now above 14070,
there will be no breaks and no way for a primary user to claim the channel.

I don't have the answer, if someone does I'd really like to hear it, but
do I think we all need to be careful as 5 March rolls around.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 2/3/2012 7:14 PM, Rick Bates wrote:
> Hi Sandy,
>
> If I read it correctly, we can use RTTY, Pactor and PSK modes (using USB
> if
> AFSK) and are limited to 2.8 KHz.  It said we were NOT limited to those
> modes for data as it would suppress experimentation.

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-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4788 - Release Date: 02/04/12

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

On 2/4/2012 4:52 PM, Sandy wrote:
> All correct! It makes no difference what frequency you use on PSK! As
> long as the pair of tones are within the 2.8 Khz bandwidth of the
> "Channel".

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

*Read* the FCC's Report & Order - it is far more complete than the
rules changes printed in the Federal Register. In the Report & Order,
the Commission *expressly prohibits* multiple users per channel in
both "RTTY" and CW mode and directs that all signals will be centered
in the respective channel.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/4/2012 4:52 PM, Sandy wrote:

> All correct!  It makes no difference what frequency you use on PSK!  As long
> as the pair of tones are within the 2.8 Khz bandwidth of the "Channel".
> There is a 100 Hz. "guard band at the top and bottom edges of the "Channel"
> therefore the channel is only 2.8 Khz wide.
>
> Sandy W5TVW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Jensen
> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:48 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published
> InFederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction
>
> I think we all need to be careful.  In the case of USB, we put our
> "suppressed carrier" [i.e. dial reading on a K3] 1.5 KHz below the
> authorized center frequency.  The USB energy is above that and fills the
> 2.8 MHz channel, and it's "one QSO per channel."
>
> For CW, we are told to put our keyed RF signal *on* the channel center
> frequency.  There is only one "center frequency" per channel, so again,
> it's "one QSO per channel."  CW and USB seem pretty clear.
>
> The two data modes aren't quite as clear.  "Data", as the FCC uses it is
> a 2K80J2D emission which wiki.radioreference.com defines as "HF
> PACTOR-III."  Again, the emission fills the channel and it's "one QSO
> per channel."  The FCC's "RTTY" is a 60H0J2B emission which
> radioreference.com defines as PSK31, which precludes what we hams define
> as RTTY [45.5 baud 170 Hz shift FSK].
>
> What's not clear is where to place your PSK31 signal.  If your PSK31
> signal extends upward from your dial frequency, then the R&O seems to
> say you put your dial frequency 1.5 KHz below the channel center
> frequency.  Where you actually transmit your PSK31 signal above that
> doesn't appear to be specified as long as it isn't 2.8 KHz or more,
> which is a little strange.  Given the "one QSO per channel" philosophy
> for CW, Phone, and PACTOR-III, I would think that they would want my
> PSK31 signal centered in the channel and it would be "one PSK31 QSO per
> channel" like the other emissions.  It just doesn't say that explicitly.
>
> There are several references in the R&O to various techniques for
> minimizing interference to Federal users, and that seems to be a driving
> factor behind the "one QSO per channel" requirement.  If it's just me
> and you conversing, there will be natural, frequent breaks for a primary
> user to claim the channel.  If the 60H0J2B emission type is intended to
> allow multiple QSO's within the channel, as happens now above 14070,
> there will be no breaks and no way for a primary user to claim the channel.
>
> I don't have the answer, if someone does I'd really like to hear it, but
> do I think we all need to be careful as 5 March rolls around.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 2/3/2012 7:14 PM, Rick Bates wrote:
>> Hi Sandy,
>>
>> If I read it correctly, we can use RTTY, Pactor and PSK modes (using USB
>> if
>> AFSK) and are limited to 2.8 KHz.  It said we were NOT limited to those
>> modes for data as it would suppress experimentation.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4788 - Release Date: 02/04/12
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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[w5tvw]

To all,

I no longer have the R&O that was issued a few months ago.  Can't locate it.
Joe you must be RIGHT!  My humble apologies!

I say its absolutely "Stupid" but I guess "Stupid is as stupid was" as that
movie saying went!

In the Federal Register posting, the new 97.303 (h) states: "60 m. band: (1)
In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60m band), amateur stations may transmit only
on the five center frequencies specified in the table below......"

THIS will not allow multiple PSK QSO's within the channel!  SORRY!  MY
OVERSIGHT AND MY MISTAKE!  To me, it's DUMB.......but it will be the law!

My apologies to all for getting so excited about this.  I guess they are
worried about the "newbies" being able to carry more than one hand grenade
at a time!  Excuse my dust fellows!

73,

Sandy W5TVW

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 4:12 PM
To: Sandy
Cc: [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published
InFederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction


On 2/4/2012 4:52 PM, Sandy wrote:
> All correct! It makes no difference what frequency you use on PSK! As
> long as the pair of tones are within the 2.8 Khz bandwidth of the
> "Channel".

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!


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[alsopb]

Who is the referee determining the channel is empty?  Propagation being
what it is, two stations may have QSO's going on and none of the group
of 4 thinks hears the other pair.  Another observer might hear both
QSO's at the same time.  Thus a violation has occurred.

There is no avoiding multiple QSO's/channel CW,PHONE or PSK.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 2/4/2012 22:52, Sandy wrote:

> To all,
>
> I no longer have the R&O that was issued a few months ago.  Can't locate it.
> Joe you must be RIGHT!  My humble apologies!
>
> I say its absolutely "Stupid" but I guess "Stupid is as stupid was" as that
> movie saying went!
>
> In the Federal Register posting, the new 97.303 (h) states: "60 m. band: (1)
> In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60m band), amateur stations may transmit only
> on the five center frequencies specified in the table below......"
>
> THIS will not allow multiple PSK QSO's within the channel!  SORRY!  MY
> OVERSIGHT AND MY MISTAKE!  To me, it's DUMB.......but it will be the law!
>
> My apologies to all for getting so excited about this.  I guess they are
> worried about the "newbies" being able to carry more than one hand grenade
> at a time!  Excuse my dust fellows!
>
> 73,
>
> Sandy W5TVW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 4:12 PM
> To: Sandy
> Cc: [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FCC 60m Band Change Rules Published
> InFederalRegister On 03 February 2012 - Correction
>
>
> On 2/4/2012 4:52 PM, Sandy wrote:
>> All correct! It makes no difference what frequency you use on PSK! As
>> long as the pair of tones are within the 2.8 Khz bandwidth of the
>> "Channel".
>
> WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4788 - Release Date: 02/04/12
>
>

-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4788 - Release Date: 02/04/12

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