FT-5000 againts K3 ?
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Is that "Radcom" a trustable source,do they have all the professional measurement devices Sherwood labs have? If so,what is the difference in figures to make it better than our K3 ?
"For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3" ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Radcom's tests, under Peter Hart G3SJX, are just as trustworthy as ARRL and Sherwood, and in fact have more continuity (in longevity of personnel, equipment and procedure) than ARRL and maybe a bit more integrity than Sherwood. I say the latter because Rob has had the K3 listed #1 even though both the Flex 5000 and Perseus exceed it at 500 Hz BW. The only reason the K3 is ranked #1 is that it uses a narrower bandwidth (200 Hz) than the other two rigs to achieve the #1 position. Rob has this clearly footnoted but it still doesn't seem right to me to list the K3 at the top based on footnotes. With equal 500 Hz BWs, the 2 kHz IMD results are: Perseus - 99 dB Flex 5k - 96 dB K3 - 95 dB http://www.sherweng.com/table.html Someone may forward this to Rob which will be no surprise to him since I've told him this directly. Frankly I doubt many would notice the difference between 95, 96, 99 or even 101 (with 200 Hz) so I don't understand why not rank rigs at identical bandwidths (500 Hz). 73, Bill P.S. It is not "compulsory" for me to own a K3. I own a K3 because it offers me the best performance available at this time for my set of needs. (Best performance meaning excellent strong signal handling and true phase-locked diversity). |
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While the RadCom reports are trustworthy, I have not seen the complete
test results nor the procedures documented in a manner similar to the ARRL test reports and procedures. I do see and hear Peter Hart's ranking (the K3 is 3rd for 2 kHz IMD at 500 Hz BW), but how does it rank for the other parameters - there is more to receiver performance than just 2 kHz IMD. What is most important to Peter Hart may not be most important to me - there are trade-offs with any piece of equipment, and any chosen parameter may be improved at the expense of other parameters. 73, Don W3FPR Bill W4ZV wrote: > Radcom's tests, under Peter Hart G3SJX, are just as trustworthy as ARRL and > Sherwood, and in fact have more continuity (in longevity of personnel, > equipment and procedure) than ARRL and maybe a bit more integrity than > Sherwood. I say the latter because Rob has had the K3 listed #1 even though > both the Flex 5000 and Perseus exceed it at 500 Hz BW. The only reason the > K3 is ranked #1 is that it uses a narrower bandwidth (200 Hz) than the other > two rigs to achieve the #1 position. Rob has this clearly footnoted but it > still doesn't seem right to me to list the K3 at the top based on footnotes. > > With equal 500 Hz BWs, the 2 kHz IMD results are: > > Perseus - 99 dB > Flex 5k - 96 dB > K3 - 95 dB > > http://www.sherweng.com/table.html > > Someone may forward this to Rob which will be no surprise to him since I've > told him this directly. Frankly I doubt many would notice the difference > between 95, 96, 99 or even 101 (with 200 Hz) so I don't understand why not > rank rigs at identical bandwidths (500 Hz). > > 73, Bill > > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
Bill, On 5/22/2010 1:48 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > The only reason the K3 is ranked #1 is that it uses a narrower > bandwidth (200 Hz) than the other two rigs to achieve the #1 > position. Rob has this clearly footnoted but it still doesn't > seem right to me to list the K3 at the top based on footnotes. I don't believe that the K3 is ranked number 1 only based on footnotes. Consider the 100 KHz blocking numbers, the better wide spaced dynamic range, much lower MDS (without a preamp), or better phase noise performance (vs. the Flex-5000) and the K3 is overall a much better, more well balanced performer. Some of the measures may not be important to a purely CW operator in the US but 20KHz DR could certainly be important to a phone contester and the 100 KHz blocking numbers are probably important to someone in Europe who must deal with the horrendous broadcast interference issues on 40 meters. 73, ... Joe, W4TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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AFAIK, all the testing is done with a single unit. Does anyone have an
idea as to what the normal unit-to-unit variation is? Are we talking 0.1dB, 1dB, 5dB? 73, Dave KQ3T ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
Joe you're mistaken about the ranking methodology. At the very top of the page, it states: ********************************* Receiver Test Data (Sorted by Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced) ********************************* http://www.sherweng.com/table.html I agree that other parameters are important, but Rob's ranking is actually by 2 kHz IMDDR3 *only*. Hence my quibble with ranking the K3 #1, which is not true if based on apples-to-apples (500 Hz BW) measurements. 73, Bill |
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In reply to this post by AD4C2009
Dave - You wrote:
"AFAIK, all the testing is done with a single unit. Does anyone have an idea as to what the normal unit-to-unit variation is? Are we talking 0.1dB, 1dB, 5dB?" Variations of a few dB from one unit to another of the same radio are typical. For the higher performing radios, most operators will not be able to tell the difference. There are exceptions, for a particularly pathological case look at the Third Order Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced (dB) for the two K2s that Robert Sherwood tested: < http://www.sherweng.com/table.html > For radios based on straight analog to digital converters (ADC), that is those that have no traditional mixer/LO/IF front end, such as the Perseus the third order dynamic range is not a good figure of merit, as the third order products do not manifest themselves until the ADC has essentially saturated. Everyone should be happy that other manufacturers are striving for optimum receiver performance competitive with Elecraft, whether driven by the K3 or not. Competition is healthy for the market place and we all benefit. It is a lack of American competition in the 70s and 80s that allowed the Japanese imports to get a toehold here. For better and for worse. - Duffey -- KK6MC James Duffey Cedar Crest NM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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James,
You state this very well. Competition is good and sooner or later someone will produce a better radio than the K3. Many K3 users would like different emphasis in areas of design but then come to realize that we would probably miss some of the current features such as portability. There is however one area that I bet no one is going to equal and that is the involvement of design engineers with amateurs! The design is ever improving and we have a great community within the Elecraft users. No other radio manufacturer yet matches this and I bet no one will. 73 Doug EI2CN -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Duffey Sent: 23 May 2010 17:03 To: [hidden email] Cc: James Duffey Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FT-5000 againts K3 ? Dave - You wrote: "AFAIK, all the testing is done with a single unit. Does anyone have an idea as to what the normal unit-to-unit variation is? Are we talking 0.1dB, 1dB, 5dB?" Variations of a few dB from one unit to another of the same radio are typical. For the higher performing radios, most operators will not be able to tell the difference. There are exceptions, for a particularly pathological case look at the Third Order Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced (dB) for the two K2s that Robert Sherwood tested: < http://www.sherweng.com/table.html > For radios based on straight analog to digital converters (ADC), that is those that have no traditional mixer/LO/IF front end, such as the Perseus the third order dynamic range is not a good figure of merit, as the third order products do not manifest themselves until the ADC has essentially saturated. Everyone should be happy that other manufacturers are striving for optimum receiver performance competitive with Elecraft, whether driven by the K3 or not. Competition is healthy for the market place and we all benefit. It is a lack of American competition in the 70s and 80s that allowed the Japanese imports to get a toehold here. For better and for worse. - Duffey -- KK6MC James Duffey Cedar Crest NM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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