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[FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

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Johnny Siu

[FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Hello Elecrafters,

I posted below in the FT817 yahoo group. I am now ready for the possibily of being fired upon.

TNX & 73,

Johnny VR2XMC

----- 轉寄的郵件 ----
從︰ Johnny Siu <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
傳送日期︰ 2011年12月30日 (週五) 8:54 AM
主題︰ [FT817] ELECRAFT

I once used FT817ND for portable operation but I eventually gave it up and replaced it by a K2. My reasons are:

1. I was disappointed by the RX performance of FT817 and K2 is far better. FT817 is hot enough to receive everything but I cannot select the station I wanted - very poor selectivity indeed;
2. Current drain of K2 is as low as 180ma;
3. Built-in ATU of K2 (swr 10:1) is convenivent;
4. Built-in speech processor of K2 gives much more talk power;
5. K2 can deliver more power at 10-15W;
6. The V/U operation of FT817 can be covered by H/T
7. A full loaded FT817 with filters, OBP processor etc is not that cheap

Most of the above rationale also applies to the decision between KX3 Vs FT817 though it is not quite an apple to apple comparison. Having said that, I still consider FT817 is very value for money because its price in VR2 is less than US$600.

With the coming of KX3, I notice many good deals for used K2. If you do not too keen on v/u, used K2 could be a good buy.

TNX & 73,

Johnny VR2XMC
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wayne burdick

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Administrator

Hi Johnny,

I can refine your points a bit further, in relation to the KX3:

> I once used FT817ND for portable operation but I eventually gave it
> up and replaced it by a K2. My reasons are:
>
> 1. I was disappointed by the RX performance of FT817 and K2 is far
> better. FT817 is hot enough to receive everything but I cannot
> select the station I wanted - very poor selectivity indeed;

With the KXFL3 module installed, the KX3 has IMDDR3 in the ~100 dB
range at 2 kHz and blocking DR in the 140 dB range.

> 2. Current drain of K2 is as low as 180 ma;

KX3: as low as 140 mA.

> 3. Built-in ATU of K2 (swr 10:1) is convenient;

Both the KXAT3 and KAT2 will actually match 20:1 or higher in many
cases.

> 4. Built-in speech processor of K2 gives much more talk power;

KX3: 32-bit floating-point DSP => split-band speech processing, TX EQ,
2 DVR messages, etc.

> 5. K2 can deliver more power at 10-15W;

KX3: Max 12 W (5 W typical from internal batteries).

> 6. The V/U operation of FT817 can be covered by H/T

KX3: 2-meter module in the works.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Ken Alexander-2

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

Hi Johnny,

I like my K2, but I've never regretted selling a transceiver more than
when I sold my FT-817. Mostly because I like VHF/UHF.

The list price for an FT-817 here is $695 + $69 (for the W4RT OBP speech
processor) + $284 (for the most expensive 2-Collins-filter package from
W4RT) = $1048 total cost. The list price for K2 with SSB, 160m, 3
transverters and the transverter interface to give identical band
coverage = ~$2300 (Gasp! And I don't get FM!). I left out optional
audio filters and (more importantly) the internal battery option, which
I should add to be fair. (* - I chose the most expensive option) Gee,
when I do the math I regret it even more!

I'd LOVE to see an HT that produces 5 watts on 6 and 2m and 70cm...on
all modes!

A K2 can produce more output than an FT-817, but if you're so concerned
about current draw on receive then should you really be transmitting
with two to three times the power? 10 to 15 watts (versus 5) on
transmit will run down a battery a lot faster than a few hundred
milliamps on receive.

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS

On 29/12/2011 8:02 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:

> Hello Elecrafters,
>
> I posted below in the FT817 yahoo group. I am now ready for the possibily of being fired upon.
>
> TNX& 73,
>
>
> Johnny VR2XMC
>
> ----- 轉寄的郵件 ----
> 從︰ Johnny Siu<[hidden email]>
> 收件人︰ "[hidden email]"<[hidden email]>
> 傳送日期︰ 2011年12月30日 (週五) 8:54 AM
> 主題︰ [FT817] ELECRAFT
>
>
>
> I once used FT817ND for portable operation but I eventually gave it up and replaced it by a K2. My reasons are:
>
> 1. I was disappointed by the RX performance of FT817 and K2 is far better. FT817 is hot enough to receive everything but I cannot select the station I wanted - very poor selectivity indeed;
> 2. Current drain of K2 is as low as 180ma;
> 3. Built-in ATU of K2 (swr 10:1) is convenivent;
> 4. Built-in speech processor of K2 gives much more talk power;
> 5. K2 can deliver more power at 10-15W;
> 6. The V/U operation of FT817 can be covered by H/T
> 7. A full loaded FT817 with filters, OBP processor etc is not that cheap
>
> Most of the above rationale also applies to the decision between KX3 Vs FT817 though it is not quite an apple to apple comparison. Having said that, I still consider FT817 is very value for money because its price in VR2 is less than US$600.
>
> With the coming of KX3, I notice many good deals for used K2. If you do not too keen on v/u, used K2 could be a good buy.
>
> TNX& 73,
>
> Johnny VR2XMC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Johnny Siu

[FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Yes, Ken. I think the major difference is that I don't operate V/U or 6m cw/ssb in portable situation.

TNX & 73,

Johnny VR2XMC

從︰ Ken Alexander <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2011年12月30日 (週五) 12:04 PM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Hi Johnny,

I like my K2, but I've never regretted selling a transceiver more than
when I sold my FT-817. Mostly because I like VHF/UHF.

The list price for an FT-817 here is $695 + $69 (for the W4RT OBP speech
processor) + $284 (for the most expensive 2-Collins-filter package from
W4RT) = $1048 total cost. The list price for K2 with SSB, 160m, 3
transverters and the transverter interface to give identical band
coverage = ~$2300 (Gasp! And I don't get FM!). I left out optional
audio filters and (more importantly) the internal battery option, which
I should add to be fair. (* - I chose the most expensive option) Gee,
when I do the math I regret it even more!

I'd LOVE to see an HT that produces 5 watts on 6 and 2m and 70cm...on
all modes!

A K2 can produce more output than an FT-817, but if you're so concerned
about current draw on receive then should you really be transmitting
with two to three times the power? 10 to 15 watts (versus 5) on
transmit will run down a battery a lot faster than a few hundred
milliamps on receive.

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS

On 29/12/2011 8:02 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:

Igor Sokolov-2

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Isn't dual RX of KX3 a good advantage over FT817?

73, Igor UA9CDC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
To: "Johnny Siu" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

> Hi Johnny,
>
> I can refine your points a bit further, in relation to the KX3:
>
>> I once used FT817ND for portable operation but I eventually gave it
>> up and replaced it by a K2. My reasons are:
>>
>> 1. I was disappointed by the RX performance of FT817 and K2 is far
>> better. FT817 is hot enough to receive everything but I cannot
>> select the station I wanted - very poor selectivity indeed;
>
> With the KXFL3 module installed, the KX3 has IMDDR3 in the ~100 dB
> range at 2 kHz and blocking DR in the 140 dB range.
>
>> 2. Current drain of K2 is as low as 180 ma;
>
> KX3: as low as 140 mA.
>
>> 3. Built-in ATU of K2 (swr 10:1) is convenient;
>
> Both the KXAT3 and KAT2 will actually match 20:1 or higher in many
> cases.
>
>> 4. Built-in speech processor of K2 gives much more talk power;
>
> KX3: 32-bit floating-point DSP => split-band speech processing, TX EQ,
> 2 DVR messages, etc.
>
>> 5. K2 can deliver more power at 10-15W;
>
> KX3: Max 12 W (5 W typical from internal batteries).
>
>> 6. The V/U operation of FT817 can be covered by H/T
>
> KX3: 2-meter module in the works.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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wayne burdick

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Administrator

Forgot to mention that....

Thanks,

Wayne
N6KR

On Dec 29, 2011, at 8:50 PM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

> Isn't dual RX of KX3 a good advantage over FT817?
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC

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Bill W4ZV

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

wayne burdick wrote

With the KXFL3 module installed, the KX3 has IMDDR3 in the ~100 dB
range at 2 kHz and blocking DR in the 140 dB range.

Any estimates for IMD/BDR in the basic rig (no KXFL3) ?

73, Bill

Oliver Dröse

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by Ken Alexander-2

I think we all know that the KX3 *is* a better radio (performance,
ergonomics, etc.) than the FT-817.

Nevertheless we should also keep in mind that the '817 is now 10 year old
technology and it was a real innovative product when it hit the market back
then! I still find it unbelievable how to put all that features into such a
small radio with quite usuable performance (especially if you know that 1/4
of it is just the battery compartment, hi). So bashing it now is probably
not right as we compare old apples and fresh oranges here. ;-))

Nevertheless one could argue why I, K, Y do not come out with a new portable
transceiver in the same size but with today's technology (DSP) and new
features. I could imagine they already have something on the drawing board
as they have access to the same technology (DSP chips, etc.) as Elecraft. I
am sure there are interesting times ahead ... but Elecraft is clearly
leading the crowd. ;-))

Anyway, I for one will probably stick with the KX3 'cause Elecraft's
philosophy, i.e. radios for hams produced by hams, is really hitting the
nail on it's head. The K3 is the most ergonomic (contest) radio I've ever
used (besides the best performance I ever had, too ;-)). And the KX3 will be
no different. This alone already made me an Elecraft addict. ;-)) Now I just
need to find out how to earn more money to buy even more Elecraft products.
;-))

73, Olli - DH8BQA
K3 #4546, KPA500 #431, KX3 #???
http://www.dh8bqa.de

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Thomas Horsten

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Hi Wayne,

On 30 December 2011 02:11, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 6. The V/U operation of FT817 can be covered by H/T
>
> KX3: 2-meter module in the works.
>

Not stopping me from getting a KX3 (I've already ordered mine), but to
completely replace my FT-817 it *would* be nice with 2m/70cm support. As I
understand it the internal 2m module comes at the expense of the ATU, so I
guess that won't be an option for me. The "killer KX3" would have both the
ATU and not only 2m but also 70cm operation, but I guess that just can't be
done in the space available.

The FT-817ND doesn't have an internal ATU but works well with the LDG one I
have, but having to carry both around does take some of the freedom away,
and I'm sure that carrying just the KX3 with the internal ATU and some wire
for an antenna will be a great experience. On the other hand, I'll probably
mostly use it with my LiPol 8Ah 12V battery, just to get the extra output
power.

Since I have to carry an internal ATU for the 817, maybe an external
70cm/2m transverter would be a possibility for the KX3? I'm guessing the
XV-series of transverters would work with the KX3, but they are a bit big.
If there was a combined 70cm/2m option for the KX3 in a smaller case, I'd
certainly buy it immediately.

73, Thomas M0TRN
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wayne burdick

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Administrator

Thomas Horsten wrote:
>

> Not stopping me from getting a KX3 (I've already ordered mine), but
> to completely replace my FT-817 it *would* be nice with 2m/70cm
> support. As I understand it the internal 2m module comes at the
> expense of the ATU, so I guess that won't be an option for me. The
> "killer KX3" would have both the ATU and not only 2m but also 70cm
> operation, but I guess that just can't be done in the space available.

Actually, it can. You'll be able to install the ATU and transverter at
the same time, or either separately.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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AC6JA

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

What will the 2m transverter receive range be? Will it be able to receive
WX @ 162mhz?

In a message dated 12/30/2011 11:50:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:

Thomas Horsten wrote:
>

> Not stopping me from getting a KX3 (I've already ordered mine), but
> to completely replace my FT-817 it *would* be nice with 2m/70cm
> support. As I understand it the internal 2m module comes at the
> expense of the ATU, so I guess that won't be an option for me. The
> "killer KX3" would have both the ATU and not only 2m but also 70cm
> operation, but I guess that just can't be done in the space available.

Actually, it can. You'll be able to install the ATU and transverter at
the same time, or either separately.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Thomas Horsten

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

On 30 December 2011 19:50, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Actually, it can. You'll be able to install the ATU and transverter at the
> same time, or either separately.
>

Wow, that is excellent news, I was actually considering not getting the ATU
to keep my options open for the transverter, but in the end I decided to go
for the ATU, if I can have both that is almost a dream come true, now if
the transverter could do 70cm as well it would be beyond awesome!

I will almost certainly get the 2m module now, if it coexists with the ATU.
Any idea when it will be offered?

73, Thomas M0TRN
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KXBill

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Beyond awesome? How about including 220 MHz. That would really be "Beyond".Carry-onBill-w7kxb

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:09:35 +0000
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT
>
> On 30 December 2011 19:50, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

> Wow, that is excellent news, now if the transverter could do 70cm as well it would be beyond awesome!

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wayne burdick

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Administrator

2 meters is the current target. It may be possible to add more bands,
but even if it were, we wouldn't be looking into this for a long time
due to other priorities.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:16 PM, Bill Harris wrote:

>
> Beyond awesome? How about including 220 MHz. That would really be
> "Beyond".Carry-onBill-w7kxb
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:09:35 +0000
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT
>>
>> On 30 December 2011 19:50, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>
>> Wow, that is excellent news, now if the transverter could do
>> 70cm as well it would be beyond awesome!
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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wayne burdick

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Administrator

In reply to this post by Thomas Horsten

Thomas Horsten wrote:
>

> I will almost certainly get the 2m module now, if it coexists with
> the ATU. Any idea when it will be offered?

Best guess: April or May.

Wayne

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Phillip Nichols

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by AC6JA

There IS limited space in there. It would be nice if various Txvtrs
were available and could be swapped. It a 2nd bottom that was "thicker".
that was an option to replace the original and allow space for a choice
of 2 Txvtrs. Or to not go this route for those who don't want.

Is this a more realistic and inexpensive solution? An Optional Expanded
bottom-cover to allow 2 Txvtrs.

Part of the joy of the 8x7 series is that all modes are available on
VHF/UHF as well. Even if the KX3 can not be all-mode on V/Uhf - Still -
some people may want a Txvtr for control use or Crossband EME or Satellite!

Hmm, Food for thought and it ain't bacon....

Phillip
N8AYE

Bill Harris said the following on 12/30/2011 3:16 PM:
> Beyond awesome? How about including 220 MHz. That would really be
> "Beyond".Carry-onBill-w7kxb
>
>

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wayne burdick

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Administrator

In reply to this post by AC6JA

On Dec 30, 2011, at 11:58 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> What will the 2m transverter receive range be? Will it be able to
> receive
> WX @ 162mhz?

Best guess: 143-149 MHz, with higher losses outside this range. I
doubt that we would have useful sensitivity at 162 MHz, but we'll know
soon enough.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

>
>
> In a message dated 12/30/2011 11:50:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
> Thomas Horsten wrote:
>>
>
>> Not stopping me from getting a KX3 (I've already ordered mine), but
>> to completely replace my FT-817 it *would* be nice with 2m/70cm
>> support. As I understand it the internal 2m module comes at the
>> expense of the ATU, so I guess that won't be an option for me. The
>> "killer KX3" would have both the ATU and not only 2m but also 70cm
>> operation, but I guess that just can't be done in the space
>> available.
>
> Actually, it can. You'll be able to install the ATU and transverter
> at
> the same time, or either separately.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Phillip Nichols

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

My 817 can't even get WX.

73/Phillip/N8AYE
-. ---.. .- -.-- .

Wayne Burdick said the following on 12/30/2011 4:03 PM:

> On Dec 30, 2011, at 11:58 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>
>> What will the 2m transverter receive range be? Will it be able to
>> receive
>> WX @ 162mhz?
>>
>
> Best guess: 143-149 MHz, with higher losses outside this range. I
> doubt that we would have useful sensitivity at 162 MHz, but we'll know
> soon enough.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

Administrator

In reply to this post by Phillip Nichols

The KX3 is all mode on 144-148 with the 144 module.

73,
Eric
---
www.elecraft.com

On 12/30/2011 12:58 PM, Phillip Nichols wrote:

> There IS limited space in there. It would be nice if various Txvtrs
> were available and could be swapped. It a 2nd bottom that was "thicker".
> that was an option to replace the original and allow space for a choice
> of 2 Txvtrs. Or to not go this route for those who don't want.
>
> Is this a more realistic and inexpensive solution? An Optional Expanded
> bottom-cover to allow 2 Txvtrs.
>
> Part of the joy of the 8x7 series is that all modes are available on
> VHF/UHF as well. Even if the KX3 can not be all-mode on V/Uhf - Still -
> some people may want a Txvtr for control use or Crossband EME or Satellite!
>
> Hmm, Food for thought and it ain't bacon....
>
> Phillip
> N8AYE
>
>
>
> Bill Harris said the following on 12/30/2011 3:16 PM:
>> Beyond awesome? How about including 220 MHz. That would really be
>> "Beyond".Carry-onBill-w7kxb
>>
>>
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Dave-3

Re: [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

The FT817 having all modes on UHF is the only reason I still keep it

Guess i will have to dig out the old microwave modules MMT432/144
transverter to use with the KX3

Dave

G4FRE

Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 23:04:48 -0500
From: Ken Alexander <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [FT817] Vs ELECRAFT
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Hi Johnny,

I like my K2, but I've never regretted selling a transceiver more than
when I sold my FT-817. Mostly because I like VHF/UHF.

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS

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