Federal Preemption
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TV antennas are specifically exempted from CC&Rs. Or rather, the restrictions are Federally preempted. Here's why:
(insert standard IANAL disclaimer HERE) Way back in the 1970s, a lot of builders started putting "no antennas" clauses in their new construction covenants/deed restrictions. This was done because cable TV folks offered them a deal: Include the clause, and the cable folks would wire up the new houses for cable at low or no cost. The result was that the builders included the clauses, and homebuyers would almost always sign up for cable service, since the house was already wired and the service (back then) was inexpensive. It cost the cable folks a lot less to wire a whole development while under construction, rather than retrofitting after the fact, and the builders could advertise the houses as prewired for cable. The few no-cable holdouts had to make do with rabbit ears and attic TV antennas. And because those covenants and deed restrictions were set up to be almost impossible to change, the situation continued for decades. Then came the direct satellite "pizza dish" TV services. They were direct competition to cable TV, and wanted into the market. But putting the little pizza dish in the attic doesn't usually work well, if at all. Nor can the dish be put just anywhere - the dish has to 'see the satellite'. Which can mean it has to be on the front of the house, up high, to do so. The satellite TV dish people realized that they were being cut out of a huge market, because so many Americans wanted the service but couldn't put the dish outside. So the sat folks sued, claiming restraint of free trade. The claim was that the no-antennas clauses effectively gave the cable TV folks a de-facto monopoly. The case went all the way to the Supremes, who ruled in favor of the pizza dish folks, and preempted the covenants and restrictions. A later action extended it to regular TV antennas. IOW, the Supremes ruled that Americans not only have an inalienable right to watch TV, but also an inalienable right to choose between all available TV providers! BUT: The preemption *ONLY* applies to antennas for broadcast and satellite TV reception - nothing else. Not ham radio, cb, SWL, Wi-Fi, public service, or even broadcast FM or AM radio. The lawsuit was over TV reception and applies only to TV reception. And there's a limit to the height and size of mast and antenna that can be installed. If the antenna is used for any purpose other than TV reception, the preemption doesn't apply and you can be required to remove the antenna. No, it doesn't make sense, but that's what the Supremes decided. They're lawyers, not engineers. ARRL has petitioned and argued for years to get the preemption extended, but FCC has repeatedly said no, no, and no again. Since amateur radio isn't commercial, the 'restraint of free trade' argument can't be applied. The only sure answer is don't buy a restricted property - ever. The long term solution is to get Congress to apply the preemption to more than TV antennas. Gladys Kravitz lives on! 73 de Jim, N2EY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Gosh, I still use rabbit ears here.....all 4 TV sets.
I thot everybody did. Al W4ABW _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N2EY
I had my R7000 vertical up for 8 years, then a neighbor cut some trees and it became visible. Got complaints and a letter to remove it. I wrote them back that OK, since i could not do Ham radio anymore, I would be watching football. Since I have a small dish I told them as per Federal Law I would be putting up a 30 foot tower and the biggest TV LPDA I could get since our nearest ABC stations are in Ft. Pierce and Miami, 60 miles North and South of me. They gave me permission in writing for my ham antennas. Please not if there is a central antenna, or cable to all houses that is paid for in your monthly fees, this extortion won't work. BTW, after the Hurricanes in the last 2 years they are glad to have me here. 73 all de Bob K3YT ---- [hidden email] wrote: ============= TV antennas are specifically exempted from CC&Rs. Or rather, the restrictions are Federally preempted. Here's why: (insert standard IANAL disclaimer HERE) Way back in the 1970s, a lot of builders started putting "no antennas" clauses in their new construction covenants/deed restrictions. This was done because cable TV folks offered them a deal: Include the clause, and the cable folks would wire up the new houses for cable at low or no cost. The result was that the builders included the clauses, and homebuyers would almost always sign up for cable service, since the house was already wired and the service (back then) was inexpensive. It cost the cable folks a lot less to wire a whole development while under construction, rather than retrofitting after the fact, and the builders could advertise the houses as prewired for cable. The few no-cable holdouts had to make do with rabbit ears and attic TV antennas. And because those covenants and deed restrictions were set up to be almost impossible to change, the situation continued for decades. Then came the direct satellite "pizza dish" TV services. They were direct competition to cable TV, and wanted into the market. But putting the little pizza dish in the attic doesn't usually work well, if at all. Nor can the dish be put just anywhere - the dish has to 'see the satellite'. Which can mean it has to be on the front of the house, up high, to do so. The satellite TV dish people realized that they were being cut out of a huge market, because so many Americans wanted the service but couldn't put the dish outside. So the sat folks sued, claiming restraint of free trade. The claim was that the no-antennas clauses effectively gave the cable TV folks a de-facto monopoly. The case went all the way to the Supremes, who ruled in favor of the pizza dish folks, and preempted the covenants and restrictions. A later action extended it to regular TV antennas. IOW, the Supremes ruled that Americans not only have an inalienable right to watch TV, but also an inalienable right to choose between all available TV providers! BUT: The preemption *ONLY* applies to antennas for broadcast and satellite TV reception - nothing else. Not ham radio, cb, SWL, Wi-Fi, public service, or even broadcast FM or AM radio. The lawsuit was over TV reception and applies only to TV reception. And there's a limit to the height and size of mast and antenna that can be installed. If the antenna is used for any purpose other than TV reception, the preemption doesn't apply and you can be required to remove the antenna. No, it doesn't make sense, but that's what the Supremes decided. They're lawyers, not engineers. ARRL has petitioned and argued for years to get the preemption extended, but FCC has repeatedly said no, no, and no again. Since amateur radio isn't commercial, the 'restraint of free trade' argument can't be applied. The only sure answer is don't buy a restricted property - ever. The long term solution is to get Congress to apply the preemption to more than TV antennas. Gladys Kravitz lives on! 73 de Jim, N2EY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N2EY
In a message dated 3/22/06 6:22:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes: > Since I have a small dish I told them as per Federal Law I would be putting > up a 30 foot tower and the biggest TV LPDA I could get since > our nearest ABC stations are in Ft. Pierce and Miami, 60 miles North and > South of me. > Be glad they didn't call your bluff and actually read the Federal preemption. The TV antenna preemption does not mean you can put up anything you want for TV reception! They specified the size of antenna and mast for broadcast TV, how high above the roofline of the house it could be, etc. If that wouldn't do the job, too bad. The ironic thing is that 'cable TV' was originally invented way back in the 1950s as a way for people in fringe areas to have good TV reception without having to put lots of metal in the air. It all started in Mahony City, here in EPA. 73 de Jim, N2EY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N2EY
My roofline is 22 feet. I can go 10 feet over it.
I told them I was putting up a 32 foot tower with the TV antenna. No bluff to call. I knew what I could do. BTW I am in lot 1 right next to the gate. 73 de Bob K3YT ---- [hidden email] wrote: ============= In a message dated 3/22/06 6:22:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, [hidden email] writes: > Since I have a small dish I told them as per Federal Law I would be putting > up a 30 foot tower and the biggest TV LPDA I could get since > our nearest ABC stations are in Ft. Pierce and Miami, 60 miles North and > South of me. > Be glad they didn't call your bluff and actually read the Federal preemption. The TV antenna preemption does not mean you can put up anything you want for TV reception! They specified the size of antenna and mast for broadcast TV, how high above the roofline of the house it could be, etc. If that wouldn't do the job, too bad. The ironic thing is that 'cable TV' was originally invented way back in the 1950s as a way for people in fringe areas to have good TV reception without having to put lots of metal in the air. It all started in Mahony City, here in EPA. 73 de Jim, N2EY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:06:41 -0500, [hidden email] wrote:
>My roofline is 22 feet. I can go 10 feet over it. >I told them I was putting up a 32 foot tower with the TV antenna. >No bluff to call. I knew what I could do. > >BTW I am in lot 1 right next to the gate. As long as it is installed on property that you have exclusive control over, and that you use it strictly for TV reception - not for FM radio, not for ham radio, not for amy other purpose but TV reception. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N2EY
I would have put up the TV tower and antenna and used it. Instead of that eyesore they opted to let me continue to have my ham vertical. The R7000 has "clean" looking traps. 73, de Bob K3YT ---- Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote: ============= On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:06:41 -0500, [hidden email] wrote: >My roofline is 22 feet. I can go 10 feet over it. >I told them I was putting up a 32 foot tower with the TV antenna. >No bluff to call. I knew what I could do. > >BTW I am in lot 1 right next to the gate. As long as it is installed on property that you have exclusive control over, and that you use it strictly for TV reception - not for FM radio, not for ham radio, not for amy other purpose but TV reception. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Phil Kane-3
But, Phil,
The homeowners association SURELY could not prevent you from using the mobile bug catcher on your car to be the antenna of your home station? 73, Stuart K5KVH I have actually heard of a ham who runs a coax out under his garage door when he wants to operate. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N2EY
But is it OK to have the car in the driveway and not in the garage?
Another approach is to have a vertical on a tilt-over base. Raise it at sunset, stow it when you're done. Nobody sees it during the day. Or just run portable / temporary from your back yard. Set up some antenna, use it, take it down when you're done. A moving target is tough to hit. I had a friend in Albuquerque who was in a place with strict CCRs. He had a 30' tower with a full size 3 element tribander. Said he got permission for it in writing as a condition on purchase of the house. I think the real key here is to just not move into a place with antenna restrictions in the first place. Or to get your written waiver at the time of purchase. Easier said than done in some places though. - Keith KD1E - -----Original Message----- From: elecraft-bounces+keith.darwin=[hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-bounces+keith.darwin=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stuart Rohre Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:28 PM To: Phil Kane; elecraft Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Federal Preemption But, Phil, The homeowners association SURELY could not prevent you from using the mobile bug catcher on your car to be the antenna of your home station? 73, Stuart K5KVH I have actually heard of a ham who runs a coax out under his garage door when he wants to operate. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Ham Ingenuity (WAS: Federal Preemption)
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Man, this issue over deed restrictions and homeowner's associations has gone
on and on and on... Probably has many non-US Hams shaking their heads in wonder <G>. We Hams are a cross-section of our cultures, and America is certainly not an exception. Homeowner's associations are definitely falling from favor. Not because people want to put up short wave antennas, but because a cross-section of people don't want another layer of administration telling them what they can or cannot do. I regularly work in residential real estate, and I have seen that homes in neighborhoods with associations do not appreciate was well nor sell as fast as other homes. The system has backfired on the very benefits it was supposed to provide. More and more buyers simply refuse to consider any home that has an association controlling it. If you aren't comfortable circumventing the restrictions, then perhaps the right approach is to take it heads on. Not for permission for your personal case, but for all the homeowners to protect them and their investment. The bottom line, as someone else pointed out, is if you don't want to live by the rules, don't sign on the bottom line that you will, especially if you're uncomfortable breaking the rules, even secretly! In the meantime, you can get out with a legal antenna in your attic or elsewhere. Shoot, did you know that you can bury a doublet underground? It'll show about 14 to 16 dB loss compared to a doublet at typical Ham heights. Okay, if you're a QRPer, try running a K2/100. Your signal will be about equivalent <G>. And QRN from such underground antennas is very, very low! Just be sure to put the antenna inside a pipe so it's not in intimate contact with the soil and water. One installation I've seen documented uses 4" PVC for the antenna wire with a plastic garbage can in the center, buried up to its lid. The lid provides an easy access to check for water and the owner put the ATU in there so coax line runs to the shack, underground of course! Heys discusses underground antennas in his little book, "Practical Wire Antennas" published by the RSGB and available through many sources including the ARRL. Us Hams are known for being ingenious and adapting to a given situation. It was just that sort of thing that caused us, when we were relegated to the 'useless' wavelengths below 200 meters, to discover the "shortwaves" and the completely unsuspected skip propagation that we all take for granted now. People who have opted to live in a restricted neighborhood have simply chosen a different set of challenges! Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Ham Ingenuity (WAS: Federal Preemption) [end of thread]
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Looks like we've beat this one to death. :-) Let's end this thread for now.
73, Eric WA6HHQ Elecraft List Moderator _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:38:23 -0500, Darwin, Keith wrote:
>Another approach is to have a vertical on a tilt-over base. Raise it at >sunset, stow it when you're done. Nobody sees it during the day. > >Or just run portable / temporary from your back yard. Set up some >antenna, use it, take it down when you're done. That makes it sneaky but not compliant if they catch you (neighbor complaint, for instance) and want to make a stink of it. If they do, what legal leg do you have to stand on? >A moving target is tough to hit. We disproved that many times when I was with FCC field enforcement (28 years) and the df equipment in use these days is far better than what we had. My retired and ex-military signal-spook friends agree with me. It all depends on how nasty the HOA wants to be in "getting" you and who they hire to do so. One of my former agents was the kind of guy who had the patience to sit around the corner from a CBer's house for eight hours waiting for him to come on. >I had a friend in Albuquerque who was in a place with strict CCRs. He >had a 30' tower with a full size 3 element tribander. Said he got >permission for it in writing as a condition on purchase of the house. That's the way to do it. I did the same when we bought a condo apartment 18 years ago, to the great annoyance of a nosy neighnor across the parking lot. >I think the real key here is to just not move into a place with antenna >restrictions in the first place. Or to get your written waiver at the >time of purchase. Easier said than done in some places though. When we moved up here 6 years ago, we had two special requirements - very close to a bus line (I couldn't drive for several years because of eye problems) and no deed or HOA restrictions on antennas. We had to pass up three homes which were nicer than the one we finally settled for because of the latter, including one brand-new townhouse where the Realtor couldn't find any CC&Rs while my trained legal eye said that the house fairly screamed "plenty of CC&Rs" as I looked at the neighborhood. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane (K2/100 #5402 coming soon to a ham-band near you) _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Stuart Rohre
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:28:25 -0600, Stuart Rohre wrote:
>But, Phil, >The homeowners association SURELY could not prevent you from using the >mobile bug catcher on your car to be the antenna of your home station? They could try and in the process disburse great amount of fog but they wouldn't succeed in stopping you. I know a whole bunch of hams who did this at one time or another. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Ham Ingenuity (WAS: Federal Preemption)
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In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:19:00 -0800, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Shoot, did you know that you can bury a doublet underground? >It'll show about 14 to 16 dB loss compared to a doublet at typical Ham >heights. Okay, if you're a QRPer, try running a K2/100. Your signal will be >about equivalent <G>. And QRN from such underground antennas is very, very >low! Just be sure to put the antenna inside a pipe so it's not in intimate >contact with the soil and water. One installation I've seen documented uses >4" PVC for the antenna wire with a plastic garbage can in the center, buried >up to its lid. The lid provides an easy access to check for water and the >owner put the ATU in there so coax line runs to the shack, underground of >course! Heys discusses underground antennas in his little book, "Practical >Wire Antennas" published by the RSGB and available through many sources >including the ARRL. Doesn't that give the lie to our historical claims that you can put the usual utility lines underground but not radio antennas? I guess that with enough power one can put any antenna underground (GWEN) or even underwater (SUBCOMM) but let's not give my wife any more ammunition!! Has anyone here tried it? -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Underground Antennas (WAS: Ham Ingenuity)
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Phil, K2ASP asked:
I guess that with enough power one can put any antenna underground (GWEN) or even underwater (SUBCOMM) but let's not give my wife any more ammunition!! Has anyone here tried it? ------------------ Oh, yes. Work with subterranean antennas dates back to 1923, at least, in the Amateur literature. They have also been the subject of various "April's fools" spoofs that some Hams get the idea that they don't work at all, but apparently they do with the limitations I described. It seems that losses go up in direct proportion to the coupling of the antenna with the earth, so the losses increase as the antenna approaches the earth and increase with depth in the earth. In the 1960's (I think it was, I'm away from my Ham library at the moment) more experimentation was done on the current HF Ham bands by a US Amateur with measurements of about 16 dB loss compared to an elevated antenna that are reported in Hey's book, "Practical Wire Antennas". Restricted use of Urban space is not limited to the USA, apparently. A Russian Ham, Igor Grigorov, RK3ZK, has written a book that also touches on near-earth and underground antennas. His book, "Urban Antennas" is reviewed by Cebik at: http://www.antennex.com/shack/Nov01/urbanrvw.html In that review Cebik writes: "Underground antennas, long familiar to those people who had to operate clandestine radios within occupied regions during World War II, are attracting professional investigation in the US these days. Whether in a near-surface location or erected deep within a cave, underground antennas do work for both short and long distance communications. No, they will not compete with the long Yagis on towers reaching the 200' level during a CQ or ARRL DX contest, but that is not their purpose. They can permit communication of essential information over various types of propagation paths. Interestingly, it is difficult to get a bearing on these antennas from any significant distance, thus adding to their security." I may have to add that book to my library <G>. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Underground Antennas (WAS: Ham Ingenuity)
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Hee, hee. Bet you did not expect someone to report they had experience with
underwater antennas, but I have been on an experimental project to put the Rogers "FLEX" Folded Conical Helical HF antenna on a submerged vessel. (Written up in IEEE Transactions on Antennas and Propagation) Of course, it was not used while submerged. I also had some HF antennas on ocean buoys that wash over pretty regularly in a high sea, so it is operated underwater part of the time. Signal drops as you would expect. At 5 watts power, they were not going to work well when in washover. SWR goes crazy, but they right themselves pretty quick and that is what foldback SWR protection is for. Rig was FT 5 watter. -Stuart K5KVH _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Underground Antennas (WAS: Ham Ingenuity)
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The only "ground" antenna I worked with was a 270 ft. horizontal loop
made from #28 enemeled wire. It was in a pentagon shape and laying right on the ground. It loaded well with my antenna coupler thru a 1:1 homemade balun wound on a big 4" ferrite toroid form with about 12 turns trifilar wound #18 solid hookup wire. I worked quite well I thought, except the signals incoming and outgoing were down about 20 db. Even did a few QSO's on 40 and 20 meters with it QRP with the K1. NOT the most effective antenna by any means, but surely a good 'stealth' antenna for people in stuffy subdivisions with those stupid covenants! If I were going to make it a permanent installation I'd use some single conductor #14 solid insulated wire from Home Depot for protection against breakage. Any "Nosy Neighborhood Association" idiot snoop could be told it was a wire to keep dogs off your lawn, or to keep you dog in your yard with a special collar. Such an antenna would be a whole lot better than a short loaded whip or some other less desirable rigup. 73, Sandy W5TVW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Rohre" <[hidden email]> To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>; "elecraft" <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Underground Antennas (WAS: Ham Ingenuity) | Hee, hee. Bet you did not expect someone to report they had experience with | underwater antennas, but I have been on an experimental project to put the | Rogers "FLEX" Folded Conical Helical HF antenna on a submerged vessel. | (Written up in IEEE Transactions on Antennas and Propagation) | | Of course, it was not used while submerged. | | I also had some HF antennas on ocean buoys that wash over pretty regularly | in a high sea, so it is operated underwater part of the time. Signal drops | as you would expect. At 5 watts power, they were not going to work well | when in washover. SWR goes crazy, but they right themselves pretty quick | and that is what foldback SWR protection is for. Rig was FT 5 watter. | | -Stuart | K5KVH | | | | _______________________________________________ | Elecraft mailing list | Post to: [hidden email] | You must be a subscriber to post to the list. | Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): | http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft | | Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm | Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com | | | | -- | No virus found in this incoming message. | Checked by AVG Free Edition. | Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.0/290 - Release Date: 3/23/2006 | | _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: Underground Antennas (WAS: Ham Ingenuity)
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Anybody have any idea how an 80m loop would work at 3m height?
We just moved into a new place with NO ANTENNA RESTRICTIONS, but I fell down hard last summer (3 weeks unconscious in ICU) and am not tempted to get very high again. All this talk about on-ground and under-ground antennas made me think of hanging a W0MHS Loop-Skywire at a low height. That a LOT of copperweld for something that hasn’t a chance. I’d hire someone to hang a doublet if I thought it would be much better. But the whole neighborhood is in a hole, about 75 feet below the prevailing terrain, so even a 50’ doublet is really 25’ underground<g>. The hole is several wavelengths wide, so from my roof, the tops of the trees on the “rim” are up about 25 degrees, so very low DX takeoff just ain’t gonna happen. Maybe it’s time I learned if I can run one of those Antenna Modelers. Should I look for Windoze or Linux flavors? Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456 <snip> The only "ground" antenna I worked with was a 270 ft. horizontal loop made from #28 enemeled wire. It was in a pentagon shape and laying right on the ground. </snip> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Antenna in a Bowl (WAS: Underground Antennas)
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Dan, WG4S asked:
Anybody have any idea how an 80m loop would work at 3m height? We just moved into a new place with NO ANTENNA RESTRICTIONS, but I fell down hard last summer (3 weeks unconscious in ICU) and am not tempted to get very high again. All this talk about on-ground and under-ground antennas made me think of hanging a W0MHS Loop-Skywire at a low height. That a LOT of copperweld for something that hasn't a chance. I'd hire someone to hang a doublet if I thought it would be much better. But the whole neighborhood is in a hole, about 75 feet below the prevailing terrain, so even a 50' doublet is really 25' underground<g>. The hole is several wavelengths wide, so from my roof, the tops of the trees on the "rim" are up about 25 degrees, so very low DX takeoff just ain't gonna happen. Maybe it's time I learned if I can run one of those Antenna Modelers. Should I look for Windoze or Linux flavors? ------------------------------------------------ What affects the pattern is how the wavefront interacts with the earth. That is a function of the polarization of the wave. A horizontal loop and a horizontal dipole or a horizontal doublet will behave the same in terms of the basic pattern affecting the angle of radiation above the horizon. At 3 meters (10 feet) you'll have a good "cloud-warmer" or what the new Hams call an NVIS antenna all HF bands. (You start to see significant lower-angle radiation when the antenna is about 3/8 wavelengths above the ground and it peaks at just over 1/2 wave above the ground. Above that height you still get FB low-angle radiation, but you lose some of the gain at good DX angles provided by the earth reflections. For high-angle propagation, the ideal height is 0.2 wavelengths effective height. I say "effective" because the effective height is not always the actual height. Since the earth is a lossy dielectric instead of a decent conductor, the actual height is somewhere below ground level. Measuring from the surface of the earth is close enough. Ground losses increase as the antenna is brought closer, but it will still radiate reasonably well even at very low elevations. My doublet is about 25 feet high. That's also very low for 80 meters; it's definitely a "cloud warmer". I work out to about 1,200 miles with it on 80 with usually excellent signal reports out to at least 700 or 800 miles. That's pretty typical range for short-skip propagation. You might actually have another effect at play at your QTH that may gain you some unexpected results: knife-edge effect. When a radio wave passes the edge of the earth, such as the edges of the "bowl" you live in, the part of the wave in contact with the earth slows down in the earth. That tilts the wave to a lower angle. It also costs signal strength, since that earth is still a lousy, lossy dielectric, but the end result may be some surprising low-angle propagation from a "cloud warmer" antenna. Something else you might consider is an "inverted V" arrangement with one tall pole at the center, since you have no antenna restrictions. Years ago I rented a house and was loath to clamber about on the roof, so I picked up a push-up TV mast. It collapsed to about 10 feet and extended to a full 50 feet. It held the center of my inverted V antenna whose ends came down to the eaves at one corner of the house in front and to the fence in the back. No climbing, no high altitude work, but a nice high HF antenna. My radiator was 130 feet long and fed with open wire line. It did a decent job as a Cloud Warmer on 160 and got out very well for DX contacts on the other bands. If you use open wire line, keep it away from the pole. To avoid messing around with standoffs, etc., I ran the open wire line away from the pole at an angle equidistant from the legs to a point along the fence, then to the shack. Just keeping it two or three times the width of the feeders will do. Of course, with coax you have no worries. Of course, I guyed the pole at full height. It was sitting on the ground and attached to the eaves about 8 feet up on a side of the house that had no gutter. Mounted like that I could extend it without guys on a calm day with plenty of guy wire with excess lengths attached to rings as they were hoisted. I then attached the guy wires with only minimal climbing on a short stepladder to reach tie-points on the fence and eaves as needed. With good marine pulley and halyard at the top, I didn't have to move the mast again. I could take the antenna down as needed standing on my patio! For modeling, I use EZNEC from W7EL (www.eznec.com) It runs under windows. Just remember that a modeling program is only as good as the assumptions you make for it. So it is, at best, as guess based on assumptions. (Did I really say that?) Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Dan Barker
Dan Barker wrote:
> Anybody have any idea how an 80m loop would work at 3m height? It would probably work adequately as an NVIS (near vertical incidence something-or-other) antenna. In other words, you would have *very* strong signals out to a couple of hundred miles on 40 meters, a little less on 80. It will not work well for longer paths, although I'm sure there will be surprises. However, I would prefer a doublet if the loop has to go around houses, etc. The reason is that a loop will magnetically couple to house wiring, etc., making it much more prone to RFI and to noise pickup. A simple doublet at this height, fed with ladder line and tuned by a good balanced tuner will probably work as well or better than the loop with fewer problems. You won't work a lot of DX with it, but you will have good local coverage. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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