Filter prices

[Jerry T. Dowell]

The high prices of the roofing filters for the K3 and optional filters for
other rigs reminds me of a little history.

In the very early '80s, I desired to purchase a CW filter for an Astro 200,
long after CIR went out of business. I happened to be visiting Phoenix, AZ
for a few days, so I dropped by Network Sciences, the company that had made
the Astro filters and had also been the filter supplier for Drake, Atlas and
other manufacturers. It was still there, but obviously about to fold. I met
with Howard Falk, the owner, who said he could supply me with an 8-pole CW
filter for the Astro. We chatted a bit while a technician, apparently the
only other person around, checked out my filter. Howard said that he had
essentially been driven out of business by the Japanese filter
manufacturers. Drake and others had switched to Japanese suppliers since
they could get the filters for a little over $1 each, whereas his cost was
over $2 each. Note that there were no middlemen. Drake was selling their
filters for $40 or $50 each, I forget which. A tidy profit. Howard charged
me $40 for that CW filter, by the way. Since Howard's tale was only one data
point for me, it would be interesting to verify it through other sources.

Inflation since that time has been about a factor of 2.6, according to
official US Government figures:

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

Some of us would disagree with the official numbers, putting it closer to a
factor of 10, but the official factor is close to the actual increase in
retail prices for the filters. If the costs have gone up in that proportion,
the profits are huge. Especially if one figures in the interim advances in
manufacturing, such as monolithic structures, etc. Of course, there is at
least one middleman involved with the Inrad filters, increasing the cost to
Elecraft. No doubt high markups are necessary along the line somewhere
because of the low volumes involved.

Nevertheless, I find it especially disturbing having to pay these modern
prices considering that the filters have apparently not been designed or
chosen for good IMD performance or advantageous group delay characteristics.
Also, some filters are reputed to have been defective. Of course, the
filters may not be totally to blame for the mediocre front end performance
of the K3 (compared with the professional-level performance that some of us
had hoped for.)

Jerry  AI6L

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[Lennart Michaëlsson]

Jerry,
I cannot comment on the price level over time even if I have been both in
the radio business and a ham for many decades.
One can always wish for lower prices, only way to make that happen is by
competition which Drake was utilizing.

Nobody forces you to buy a K3 with or without filters.
I can honestly say that during all my active years I have never listened to
a receiver as good as my K3 and yes I do have other rigs as well.
The front end at least of my K3 stands up very well in comparison and does
handle very high signal levels on the lower bands without any problems.
73
Len
SM7BIC

The high prices of the roofing filters for the K3 and optional filters for
other rigs reminds me of a little history.

In the very early '80s, I desired to purchase a CW filter for an Astro 200,
long after CIR went out of business. I happened to be visiting Phoenix, AZ
for a few days, so I dropped by Network Sciences, the company that had made
the Astro filters and had also been the filter supplier for Drake, Atlas and
other manufacturers. It was still there, but obviously about to fold. I met
with Howard Falk, the owner, who said he could supply me with an 8-pole CW
filter for the Astro. We chatted a bit while a technician, apparently the
only other person around, checked out my filter. Howard said that he had
essentially been driven out of business by the Japanese filter
manufacturers. Drake and others had switched to Japanese suppliers since
they could get the filters for a little over $1 each, whereas his cost was
over $2 each. Note that there were no middlemen. Drake was selling their
filters for $40 or $50 each, I forget which. A tidy profit. Howard charged
me $40 for that CW filter, by the way. Since Howard's tale was only one data
point for me, it would be interesting to verify it through other sources.

Inflation since that time has been about a factor of 2.6, according to
official US Government figures:

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

Some of us would disagree with the official numbers, putting it closer to a
factor of 10, but the official factor is close to the actual increase in
retail prices for the filters. If the costs have gone up in that proportion,
the profits are huge. Especially if one figures in the interim advances in
manufacturing, such as monolithic structures, etc. Of course, there is at
least one middleman involved with the Inrad filters, increasing the cost to
Elecraft. No doubt high markups are necessary along the line somewhere
because of the low volumes involved.

Nevertheless, I find it especially disturbing having to pay these modern
prices considering that the filters have apparently not been designed or
chosen for good IMD performance or advantageous group delay characteristics.
Also, some filters are reputed to have been defective. Of course, the
filters may not be totally to blame for the mediocre front end performance
of the K3 (compared with the professional-level performance that some of us
had hoped for.)

Jerry  AI6L


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[N5GE]

On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:07:31 -0700, "Jerry T. Dowell" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>The high prices of the roofing filters for the K3 and optional filters for
>other rigs reminds me of a little history.
>
>In the very early '80s, I desired to purchase a CW filter for an Astro 200,
>long after CIR went out of business. I happened to be visiting Phoenix, AZ
>for a few days, so I dropped by Network Sciences, the company that had made
>the Astro filters and had also been the filter supplier for Drake, Atlas and
>other manufacturers. It was still there, but obviously about to fold. I met
>with Howard Falk, the owner, who said he could supply me with an 8-pole CW
>filter for the Astro. We chatted a bit while a technician, apparently the
>only other person around, checked out my filter. Howard said that he had
>essentially been driven out of business by the Japanese filter
>manufacturers. Drake and others had switched to Japanese suppliers since
>they could get the filters for a little over $1 each, whereas his cost was
>over $2 each. Note that there were no middlemen. Drake was selling their
>filters for $40 or $50 each, I forget which. A tidy profit. Howard charged
>me $40 for that CW filter, by the way. Since Howard's tale was only one data
>point for me, it would be interesting to verify it through other sources.
>

The cost of what you pay for distributed goods doesn't just reflect the
difference between what the manufacturer sells his product for.  There are many
other factors involved, like shipping, packaging, employee wages, warehouse
rent, taxes, OSHA requirements, city and state regulations, federal regulations
and the list goes on and on and on.

It just costs money to stay in business even if you never sell anything, you
still have to file all the paperwork and pay the fees that allow you to be in
business.

I'm surprised Mr. Falk didn't just put adds in the ham magazines selling his
products for $10.00 each and make a healthy profit, unless he had some sort of
agreement not to compete with those distributors buying his products.  If his
products were equal to the ones sold by Drake, etc., once the word got around,
the others would need to reduce their prices or he would capture the after
market trade.

>Inflation since that time has been about a factor of 2.6, according to
>official US Government figures:
>
>http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
>

The cost of goods is rarely reflected by the value of currency.  It is mostly
reflected by what people will pay for the goods.

>Some of us would disagree with the official numbers, putting it closer to a
>factor of 10, but the official factor is close to the actual increase in
>retail prices for the filters. If the costs have gone up in that proportion,
>the profits are huge. Especially if one figures in the interim advances in
>manufacturing, such as monolithic structures, etc. Of course, there is at
>least one middleman involved with the Inrad filters, increasing the cost to
>Elecraft. No doubt high markups are necessary along the line somewhere
>because of the low volumes involved.
>
>Nevertheless, I find it especially disturbing having to pay these modern
>prices considering that the filters have apparently not been designed or
>chosen for good IMD performance or advantageous group delay characteristics.
>Also, some filters are reputed to have been defective. Of course, the
>filters may not be totally to blame for the mediocre front end performance
>of the K3 (compared with the professional-level performance that some of us
>had hoped for.)

So, the real reason for your post was to bash Elecraft's filters.  Right?

How many K3s do you own?  If you don't have any get at least one.

>
>Jerry  AI6L
>
[snip]

73,

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Wow, I wish we could buy 8 pole filters in amateur radio volumes for a
wholesale price 1-5$. Or even $30-$40! They just don't exist. (But let
me know if you find some..)

Our filters -were- designed for their excellent IMD performance. Also,
we have these filters tested for IMD and passband response during
manufacture. Its always possible one can slip through, but not very often.

And the K3 -does- provide top of the line front end performance. Even if
you subtract 5-7 dB from our verified lab test numbers at the ARRL and
Sherwood you are in the top tier of all amateur rigs. Period. All of the
reviewers (ARRL, Sherwood, Radcom etc) have praised the K3 for its top
of the line performance.

Let's also remember that the IMD dynamic range numbers we are now
testing for (95-100 dB+) push the limits of many test lab set ups.
Without careful measurement technique and appropriate gear it is easy to
confuse the IMD limits of the test set up equipment with the rig. I've
personally tripped across that many times here in my lab and have helped
others clean up their lab set ups. Also, there are several methods to
test IMD dynamic range. (IMD product at MDS, at S5 etc.) With a
non-linear device like a crystal filter, the level of test signal is
critical for accurate comparisons. It does not act like a transistor
amplifier does when subjected to signals at its upper limits. We've seen
several folks (including ourselves) test at signal levels way above the
max the filter will ever see and then incorrectly try to extrapolate
back to IMD performance at expected use strong signal levels. Its easy
to get widely varying and inconsistent results when testing that way.

But the bottom line is: How does a radio perform in actual use? I'll let
our customers past and future postings speak for that. :-)

73, Eric   WA6HHQ
-----

Jerry T. Dowell wrote:

> The high prices of the roofing filters for the K3 and optional filters for
> other rigs reminds me of a little history.
> ..... Drake and others had switched to Japanese suppliers since
> they could get the filters for a little over $1 each, whereas his cost was
> over $2 each. Note that there were no middlemen. Drake was selling their
> filters for $40 or $50 each, I forget which. A tidy profit. Howard charged
> me $40 for that CW filter, by the way. Inflation since that time has been about a factor of 2.6, according to official US Government figures:
>
> Some of us would disagree with the official numbers, putting it closer to a
> factor of 10,
>  
> Nevertheless, I find it especially disturbing having to pay these modern
> prices considering that the filters have apparently not been designed or
> chosen for good IMD performance or advantageous group delay characteristics.
> Also, some filters are reputed to have been defective. Of course, the
> filters may not be totally to blame for the mediocre front end performance
> of the K3 (compared with the professional-level performance that some of us
> had hoped for.)
>
>  

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[Julian, G4ILO]

Lennart Michaëlsson wrote

Also, some filters are reputed to have been defective. Of course, the
filters may not be totally to blame for the mediocre front end performance
of the K3 (compared with the professional-level performance that some of us
had hoped for.)

I must have been asleep. Can someone point me to the reports of mediocre front end performance, please? I hadn't noticed any criticisms, apart from this one.

In the reviews of "professional" grade receivers I've seen, such as the Icom professional receiver, the performance was actually worse than many amateur transceivers, and certainly worse than the K3.

I suppose Elecraft must be doing something right if people have to make things up to find something to complain about...

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Guys - Jerry does indeed own a K2 and a K3 and is a long time Elecraft
customer. He certainly is allowed to state his opinion. In -my- opinion
he stated it fairly, even though I disagreed with him on the pricing and
technical points.

Its OK to argue in a polite manner, but please do not jump on anyone
personally for stating their opinion. If its out of line I'll jump in
and address them directly. Personal attacks in either direction are
outside of the reflector guidelines.

Please remember that this is just a hobby and we're all here to have
some fun. (Even those of us designing and manufacturing the K3! ;-)

73,
Eric  WA6HHQ
------

Tom Childers, N5GE wrote:
> So, the real reason for your post was to bash Elecraft's filters.  Right?
> How many K3s do you own?  If you don't have any get at least one.
>
> 73,
> Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq
>
>  
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[Fern Rivard]

Jerry:

    I don't know if you own a K3 or not but if you don't then you should invest in one before knocking the K3 down. The fact that Sherwood Engineering and others have found the K3 to surpass the receivers in those expensive radios like the IC-7800 and the FTDX-9000,  should be enough proof of the performance of the K3.  I have owned many different receivers/transceivers over my ham career and I honestly have not found anything yet to be the receiver in the K3.
    Just my 2 cents worth from Fern with K3 #412.






The high prices of the roofing filters for the K3 and optional filters for
other rigs reminds me of a little history.



Nevertheless, I find it especially disturbing having to pay these modern
prices considering that the filters have apparently not been designed or
chosen for good IMD performance or advantageous group delay characteristics.
Also, some filters are reputed to have been defective. Of course, the
filters may not be totally to blame for the mediocre front end performance
of the K3 (compared with the professional-level performance that some of us
had hoped for.)

Jerry  AI6L




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[Paul-285]

>The high prices of the roofing filters for the K3 and optional filters for
>other rigs reminds me of a little history.

I want Elecraft to make a good profit so they'll remain in business
to support me, if needed, down the road.

You can't remain in business without making a good profit.

Again, unless you're a contester or a pile-up DX'er, you may not need
any optional filters.

Paul

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