Filters for K3
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I'm with Don on this one. In my TS-870, voice modes use Hi/Lo cut and CW and data modes use Width/Shift by default. I wish the K3 did the same.
Wes N7WS --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote: From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 To: "David Gilbert" <[hidden email]> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 3:54 PM Dave and all, Your observation is exactly the reason I use HI and LO CUT for SSB. Typically one only needs to decrease HI CUT and the center frequency takes care of itself. When the HI CUT gets so low that intelligibility is beginning to decay, a slight change upward in LO CUT can improve things, but normally LO CUT is a "set and forget" control for SSB - mine normally stays at 0.15, 0.20 or 0.25. Try it and I would wager that most of you struggling with the WIDTH and SHIFT for SSB will never go back. 73, Don W3FPR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I use the settings I & II to go from normal and shift width for best signal
pullouts when working DX. Please don't suggest this be changed?_(: 73, Bill K9YEQ K2; KX1; K3; mini mods; W2; THP HL-2.5Kfx ATS-3B -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:27 PM To: David Gilbert; [hidden email] Cc: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 I'm with Don on this one. In my TS-870, voice modes use Hi/Lo cut and CW and data modes use Width/Shift by default. I wish the K3 did the same. Wes N7WS --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote: From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 To: "David Gilbert" <[hidden email]> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 3:54 PM Dave and all, Your observation is exactly the reason I use HI and LO CUT for SSB. Typically one only needs to decrease HI CUT and the center frequency takes care of itself. When the HI CUT gets so low that intelligibility is beginning to decay, a slight change upward in LO CUT can improve things, but normally LO CUT is a "set and forget" control for SSB - mine normally stays at 0.15, 0.20 or 0.25. Try it and I would wager that most of you struggling with the WIDTH and SHIFT for SSB will never go back. 73, Don W3FPR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by alorona
--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote: Originally, IF shift was defined as moving one IF passband within another IF passband, making the resulting passband the intersection (not the union) of the two passbands. When you do that, you effectively reduce the width *and* the center frequency of the IF passband... it has nothing to do with manufacturers failing to make it work correctly. That's not the way I understand it. What you describe is a way to narrow the composite filter bandwidth. If done correctly, the center frequency doesn't change. Take two pieces of paper and cut a square in each. Hold them up to a window, and slide one square horizontally across the other one, and note how the width *and* center of the opening shifts left or right. This is what I mean when I say, "IF shift". We might be talking about two different things. If you are trying to adjust bandwidth, then *both* filters are effectively moved in opposite directions, leaving the center frequency fixed. But this isn't "IF Shift". IF Shift is when the pass band of a filter (or composite filter) is effectively moved with respect to the carrier (or suppressed carrier) frequency, i.e. BFO. A better term for this is Passband Tuning, first used AFAIK, in the Collins 75A-4. Since the VFO was very linear in degrees of rotation of the tuning knob with respect to frequency, turning the VFO housing was the same as turning the knob in the opposite direction. The BFO frequency was also linear with respect to knob rotation, so Collins mechanically slaved the rotation of the VFO housing to the rotation of the BFO knob. So the BFO could be moved from one side of the passband of the mechanical filter to the other but since the VFO tracked the frequency change, the beat note of a signal wouild remain constant. This gave the illusion that the mechanical filter passband was being moved with respect to the BFO, which in turn appeared to be fixed in frequency since a signal's beat note did not change*. * Actually, since the two oscillators didn't move exactly the same amount due to minor non-linearities, there was at some frequencies a perceptible beat note change. For those who were not faint of heart (me), the linearizing widgets (have to be seen to understand) in the Collins PTO could be tweaked to improve this. The K3 uses almost simultaneous shifts in the 'BFO" and VFO to do the same thing. I say "almost" because the DDS step size changes with frequency so the shifts aren't exact and a beat note change can be seen when changing filter shift. Wes N7WS ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by n7ws
Wes,
A "tap of the knob" will make it that way for the K3 - and it will be remembered by mode/band. While it is not a default (it is user selectable), one can make the choice and when returning to that band/mode, it will be the same unless one has tapped the knobs again. 73, Don W3FPR Wes Stewart wrote: > I'm with Don on this one. In my TS-870, voice modes use Hi/Lo cut and CW and data modes use Width/Shift by default. I wish the K3 did the same. > > Wes N7WS > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Right you are. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that other than the fact I went into the shack and recalled a memory and it was "wrong" for the mode and I ran with it.
I guess it's because I was away for the holidays and if I don't use the radio every day I forget all of the nuances. Wes --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote: From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 To: "Wes Stewart" <[hidden email]> Cc: "David Gilbert" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email], "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 7:38 PM Wes, A "tap of the knob" will make it that way for the K3 - and it will be remembered by mode/band. While it is not a default (it is user selectable), one can make the choice and when returning to that band/mode, it will be the same unless one has tapped the knobs again. 73, Don W3FPR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Merv Schweigert
> Drake?? What about Collins and the 75A4 that had a fine shift > control on the front panel, done mechanically/electrically > but was well before Drake had a radio.. Width was controlled > by filters. I don't know when the 75A4 was introduced but the shift control was present on the Drake 2B, probably the 2A and maybe even the 1A. In any case, independent shift and width controls certainly go back into the 60's if not earlier ... long before high cut and low cut were mis-identified as shift and width. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -----Original Message----- > From: Merv Schweigert [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:22 PM > To: [hidden email] > Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 > > > Drake?? What about Collins and the 75A4 that had a fine shift > control on the front panel, done mechanically/electrically > but was well before Drake had a radio.. Width was controlled > by filters. > Merv KH7C > > > Originally, IF shift was defined as moving one IF passband > within another IF passband, making the resulting passband the > intersection (not the union) of the two passbands. > > > Again, you are incorrect. Drake implemented a shift control long > before any of the Japanese imports and its shift moved the entire > passband without changing the width. Width was controlled > separately, in discrete steps. > > Many of Yaesu's transceivers ... going back to the 1970's ... > also had independent shift and width controls. Even today > the FT-1000D, FT-1000MP, Mark V, FT-2000, FT-9000, etc. have > width and shift controls that are independent and behave > exactly like the K3 in Width/shift mode. > > It was only when Kenwood eliminated the third filter and > failed to link the mixers that shift/width became effectively > a high cut or low cut filter. > > Like so many other features of the radio, what you prefer > depends on what you first used. For me, the current Elecraft > design is the right way to do shift and width. Even better, > I can select independent shift and width for CW and digital > operation or high/low cut for SSB operation at the press of > the encoder (or if I select 10 Hz steps for shift the behavior > can change automatically as I change between voice and CW/data > modes). > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Al Lorona > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:18 PM > To: Elecraft Reflector > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 > > > > It depends entirely on which brand of radio you were using > and how the manufacturer implemented IF shift and/or width. > > Originally, IF shift was defined as moving one IF passband > within another IF passband, making the resulting passband the > intersection (not the union) of the two passbands. > > When you do that, you effectively reduce the width *and* the > center frequency of the IF passband... it has nothing to do > with manufacturers failing to make it work correctly. > > Take two pieces of paper and cut a square in each. Hold them > up to a window, and slide one square horizontally across the > other one, and note how the width *and* center of the opening > shifts left or right. This is what I mean when I say, "IF > shift". We might be talking about two different things. > > Regards, > > Al W6LX ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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One of my neighbor hams had a 75A4 when I was in high school - no later
than 1957. Dunc, W5DC Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > >> Drake?? What about Collins and the 75A4 that had a fine shift >> control on the front panel, done mechanically/electrically >> but was well before Drake had a radio.. Width was controlled >> by filters. >> > > I don't know when the 75A4 was introduced but the shift control > was present on the Drake 2B, probably the 2A and maybe even > the 1A. In any case, independent shift and width controls > certainly go back into the 60's if not earlier ... long before > high cut and low cut were mis-identified as shift and width. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Merv Schweigert [mailto:[hidden email]] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:22 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 >> >> >> Drake?? What about Collins and the 75A4 that had a fine shift >> control on the front panel, done mechanically/electrically >> but was well before Drake had a radio.. Width was controlled >> by filters. >> Merv KH7C >> >> >> Originally, IF shift was defined as moving one IF passband >> within another IF passband, making the resulting passband the >> intersection (not the union) of the two passbands. >> >> >> Again, you are incorrect. Drake implemented a shift control long >> before any of the Japanese imports and its shift moved the entire >> passband without changing the width. Width was controlled >> separately, in discrete steps. >> >> Many of Yaesu's transceivers ... going back to the 1970's ... >> also had independent shift and width controls. Even today >> the FT-1000D, FT-1000MP, Mark V, FT-2000, FT-9000, etc. have >> width and shift controls that are independent and behave >> exactly like the K3 in Width/shift mode. >> >> It was only when Kenwood eliminated the third filter and >> failed to link the mixers that shift/width became effectively >> a high cut or low cut filter. >> >> Like so many other features of the radio, what you prefer >> depends on what you first used. For me, the current Elecraft >> design is the right way to do shift and width. Even better, >> I can select independent shift and width for CW and digital >> operation or high/low cut for SSB operation at the press of >> the encoder (or if I select 10 Hz steps for shift the behavior >> can change automatically as I change between voice and CW/data >> modes). >> >> 73, >> >> ... Joe, W4TV >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Al Lorona >> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:18 PM >> To: Elecraft Reflector >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 >> >> >> >> It depends entirely on which brand of radio you were using >> and how the manufacturer implemented IF shift and/or width. >> >> Originally, IF shift was defined as moving one IF passband >> within another IF passband, making the resulting passband the >> intersection (not the union) of the two passbands. >> >> When you do that, you effectively reduce the width *and* the >> center frequency of the IF passband... it has nothing to do >> with manufacturers failing to make it work correctly. >> >> Take two pieces of paper and cut a square in each. Hold them >> up to a window, and slide one square horizontally across the >> other one, and note how the width *and* center of the opening >> shifts left or right. This is what I mean when I say, "IF >> shift". We might be talking about two different things. >> >> Regards, >> >> Al W6LX ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> >> >> > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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My Elmer, W7UVR, (http://www.k0bg.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1039) had one before I was licensed in 1958. I could only dream.
Later in life I did own one as well as a 75A(1), KWM-1, 51S-1 and ARR-41, just not all at the same time. Wes --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Duncan Carter <[hidden email]> wrote: From: Duncan Carter <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 To: [hidden email] Cc: "'Elecraft Reflector'" <[hidden email]> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 11:47 PM One of my neighbor hams had a 75A4 when I was in high school - no later than 1957. Dunc, W5DC Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > >> Drake?? What about Collins and the 75A4 that had a fine shift >> control on the front panel, done mechanically/electrically >> but was well before Drake had a radio.. Width was controlled >> by filters. >> > > I don't know when the 75A4 was introduced but the shift control > was present on the Drake 2B, probably the 2A and maybe even > the 1A. In any case, independent shift and width controls > certainly go back into the 60's if not earlier ... long before > high cut and low cut were mis-identified as shift and width. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Merv Schweigert [mailto:[hidden email]] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:22 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 >> >> >> Drake?? What about Collins and the 75A4 that had a fine shift >> control on the front panel, done mechanically/electrically >> but was well before Drake had a radio.. Width was controlled >> by filters. >> Merv KH7C >> >> >> Originally, IF shift was defined as moving one IF passband >> within another IF passband, making the resulting passband the >> intersection (not the union) of the two passbands. >> >> >> Again, you are incorrect. Drake implemented a shift control long >> before any of the Japanese imports and its shift moved the entire >> passband without changing the width. Width was controlled >> separately, in discrete steps. >> >> Many of Yaesu's transceivers ... going back to the 1970's ... >> also had independent shift and width controls. Even today >> the FT-1000D, FT-1000MP, Mark V, FT-2000, FT-9000, etc. have >> width and shift controls that are independent and behave >> exactly like the K3 in Width/shift mode. >> >> It was only when Kenwood eliminated the third filter and >> failed to link the mixers that shift/width became effectively >> a high cut or low cut filter. >> >> Like so many other features of the radio, what you prefer >> depends on what you first used. For me, the current Elecraft >> design is the right way to do shift and width. Even better, >> I can select independent shift and width for CW and digital >> operation or high/low cut for SSB operation at the press of >> the encoder (or if I select 10 Hz steps for shift the behavior >> can change automatically as I change between voice and CW/data >> modes). >> >> 73, >> >> ... Joe, W4TV >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Al Lorona >> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:18 PM >> To: Elecraft Reflector >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filters for K3 >> >> >> >> It depends entirely on which brand of radio you were using >> and how the manufacturer implemented IF shift and/or width. >> >> Originally, IF shift was defined as moving one IF passband >> within another IF passband, making the resulting passband the >> intersection (not the union) of the two passbands. >> >> When you do that, you effectively reduce the width *and* the >> center frequency of the IF passband... it has nothing to do >> with manufacturers failing to make it work correctly. >> >> Take two pieces of paper and cut a square in each. Hold them >> up to a window, and slide one square horizontally across the >> other one, and note how the width *and* center of the opening >> shifts left or right. This is what I mean when I say, "IF >> shift". We might be talking about two different things. >> >> Regards, >> >> Al W6LX ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> >> >> > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by KARL MARDERIAN
Elecrafters,
thanks a lot for all the input. Not only did we discuss the filters, we also discussed on shift, width and passband-tuning. The different approaches to eliminate qrm *and* keep the signals readable were very informative. I learned a lot. HNY Martin -- 73, DM4iM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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