Fire in the house li-ion
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Re: Fire in the house li-ion
 
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I have been using charging bags similar to these for over 6 years to charge LiPO batteries for my fleet of RC airplanes. Very prevalent and highly recommended within the RC hobby field. Not necessarily this specific brand, but I've never had an issue.
73, Terry, W0FM -----Original Message----- From: Bill W4ZV [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:08 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fire in the house li-ion N0CE wrote: /"I’d like to know more about the bag someone mentioned"/ 744 hits for "fireproof charging bag lipo": -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Fire-in-the-house-li-ion-tp7630779p7630810.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fire in the house li-ion
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No, I have not seen any fire, smoking or dangerous issues, Ron. But I always use the recommended chargers and charging formats. I always charge them in the fire bag and never indoors or unattended. Like anything else that's dangerous, they demand respect.
73 Terry W0FM -----Original Message----- From: Ron D'Eau Claire [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 12:42 PM To: 'Terry Schieler'; 'Bill W4ZV'; [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Fire in the house li-ion Have you ever had a battery failure and fire in one of them? The ones I've seen on line that state they are tested under actual failure conditions are more than $500 USD. 73, Ron AC7AC -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Terry Schieler Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 9:30 AM To: 'Bill W4ZV'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fire in the house li-ion I have been using charging bags similar to these for over 6 years to charge LiPO batteries for my fleet of RC airplanes. Very prevalent and highly recommended within the RC hobby field. Not necessarily this specific brand, but I've never had an issue. 73, Terry, W0FM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Ditto Terry's comments. I'd add that balanced chargers (<$20) and
inexpensive monitors (<$3) will detect when a cell begins going bad. One cell having a much lower voltage than the others is an immediate flag. http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMax-B6-Digital-LCD-RC-Lipo-NiMh- battery-Balance-Charger-US-STOCK-100-New-/311592092378? hash=item488c5602da:g:mmsAAOSwdpxUWyl3 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lipo-Battery-Voltage-Monitor-Meter- 7-4V-11-1V-22-2V-2S-6S-Cells-LED-Display-/110762643408? hash=item19c9f7cfd0:g:GQ4AAOxyqKVRigvv I also never put any lithium battery (LiPO or Li-Ion) inside my radios. I've seen more bad publicity about Li-Ion batteries (e.g. Samsung S7 phones, Dell laptops, etc) than LiPO batteries but I'm not sure why that is. 73, Bill W4ZV On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Terry Schieler <[hidden email]> wrote: > No, I have not seen any fire, smoking or dangerous issues, Ron. But I > always use the recommended chargers and charging formats. I always charge > them in the fire bag and never indoors or unattended. Like anything else > that's dangerous, they demand respect. > > 73 Terry W0FM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron D'Eau Claire [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 12:42 PM > To: 'Terry Schieler'; 'Bill W4ZV'; [hidden email] > Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Fire in the house li-ion > > Have you ever had a battery failure and fire in one of them? > > The ones I've seen on line that state they are tested under actual failure > conditions are more than $500 USD. > > 73, Ron AC7AC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Terry Schieler > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 9:30 AM > To: 'Bill W4ZV'; [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fire in the house li-ion > > I have been using charging bags similar to these for over 6 years to > charge LiPO batteries for my fleet of RC airplanes. Very prevalent and > highly recommended within the RC hobby field. Not necessarily this > specific brand, but I've never had an issue. > > 73, Terry, W0FM > > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Richard Fjeld-2
Walter, your point is well taken. The original post needs to be studied.
This thread has been good to increase my awareness. Thanks for the bandwidth, Rich, n0ce From: Walter Underwood<mailto:[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 12:29 AM To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fire in the house li-ion Lithium ion batteries which are in a completely controlled charging and discharging environment, like in a phone or laptop, are generally safe. Well, except for the Samsung Galaxy Note S7. The best guess I’ve heard about that problem is that the various functions were so complicated and overlapping that they could overload the battery and overheat it. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
A good friend, colleague, philosopher, and programmer once told meas we
were leaving yet another interminable "Lessons Learned" meeting for yet another troubled project: "The problem with Lessons Learned is that theyrarely are." I brought up my experience because it happened on discharge and the thread had focused on the charge cycle. It may have just been defective. Good lithium chemistry batteries tend to have very flat discharge curves, and because of extremely low internal resistance, can deliver massive amounts of energy with little voltage sag. A lesson from my experience might be, "Never put a lithium<mumble> battery inside your radio." To avoid rapid discharge of your bank account with no return, avoid the really inexpensive [as in cheap] Li-<whatever> batteries available on line from unknown off-shore sources. I fell for onealleged 10 Ah Li-ion. It may have stored 10 Ah of energy, however its discharge curve resembled the glide angle of a brick and I was lucky to get 1 to 1.5 Ah out before the voltage fell to cutoff on my K2. Iwill tire of operating with my K2 well before depleting my 4S1P A123 LiFePO4. 73, Fred ("Skip") K6DGW Sparks NV USA Washoe County DM09dn On 5/18/2017 2:47 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Ouch, Fred! > > One of the standard airline emergency procedures for a smoking/burning/fizzing phone or other personal electronics is to submerge it in water or wrap wet towels around it to reduce the temperature and keep it from igniting nearby flammable materials. > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
Just a note to say I’m still thinking about the information from this thread, and I’m glad to learn of fires while a Lithium type battery discharges. I had no idea they would do that, and it takes the fun out of having them.
I had bought a balance charger and a voltage monitor, and low voltage alarms, but I have made battery packs that wouldn’t be practical to attach a monitor to. Example, I have an old Kenwood hand-held that hasn’t had a battery pack for years. Now, for a few dollars, I had made a battery pack for it. I also have CREE flashlights made for the 18650, and 14500 batteries. There is no way to monitor the voltage in this application. I tested one yesterday and found it was down to 2.0 volts. (Also being marketed today, are packs to jump-start cars and trucks. That will be interesting!) This thread has made gel-cells look pretty good to me again. Thanks to all, Rich, n0ce From: Bill Tippett<mailto:[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 1:31 PM To: Terry Schieler<mailto:[hidden email]> Cc: Elecraft Reflector<mailto:[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fire in the house li-ion Ditto Terry's comments. I'd add that balanced chargers (<$20) and inexpensive monitors (<$3) will detect when a cell begins going bad. One cell having a much lower voltage than the others is an immediate flag. http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMax-B6-Digital-LCD-RC-Lipo-NiMh- battery-Balance-Charger-US-STOCK-100-New-/311592092378? hash=item488c5602da:g:mmsAAOSwdpxUWyl3 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lipo-Battery-Voltage-Monitor-Meter- 7-4V-11-1V-22-2V-2S-6S-Cells-LED-Display-/110762643408? hash=item19c9f7cfd0:g:GQ4AAOxyqKVRigvv I also never put any lithium battery (LiPO or Li-Ion) inside my radios. I've seen more bad publicity about Li-Ion batteries (e.g. Samsung S7 phones, Dell laptops, etc) than LiPO batteries but I'm not sure why that is. 73, Bill W4ZV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
LiIon types, and safety (was: Fire in the house li-ion)
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> On 24 May 2017, at 15:20, Richard Fjeld <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I had bought a balance charger and a voltage monitor, and low voltage alarms, but I have made battery packs that wouldn’t be practical to attach a monitor to. Example, I have an old Kenwood hand-held that hasn’t had a battery pack for years. Now, for a few dollars, I had made a battery pack for it. > > I also have CREE flashlights made for the 18650, and 14500 batteries. There is no way to monitor the voltage in this application. I tested one yesterday and found it was down to 2.0 volts. There are LiIons out there (18650 and maybe also 14500) that have built-in protections against all sorts of things, including both under- and overvoltage. That can significantly reduce various risks associated with them. There are a few downsides: - They can be longer, might not fit in all equipment - They can have current-limits, typically not a problem with flashlights, but can be with higher power radios (a few amps is certainly fine, I’d expect no issues for QRP). - They can appear “dead” if the voltage ever drops too low. About the last part… Sorry if it’s been already mentioned in this thread, but LiIons can become more dangerous if they stay completely depleted for a long time. Best for storage of regular LiIons is probably around 3.6V, but if you have a choice between fully charged or fully depleted, go with the fully charged. > (Also being marketed today, are packs to jump-start cars and trucks. That will be interesting!) > > This thread has made gel-cells look pretty good to me again. There’s a lot of different chemistries when it comes to LiIon batteries, and they each have different tradeoffs. If you’d like to gain a little bit in safety, consider IMR, INR or NCR batteries. They are intrinsically a bit less scary than some of the other chemistries, like ICR. Googling a battery will typically lead you to a data sheet about this kind of information. Not only is it harder to get an incident from these, but the incident would be less severe as well. All of those batteries operate with the same voltage range, but the mentioned types typically have a bit less capacity (for an 186500, that might be 2000 - 3000mAh, where ICR can be up towards 3400mAh). Those batteries can often provide more current safely though, and can also have less of a voltage drop. That in turn, means you won’t get to battery low as fast (caused by the voltage having dropped low enough). Bottom line to that is that at higher currents (couple of amps and up) you might get similar real runtime from a 3000mAh IMR battery, as from a 3400mAh ICR battery. Then there’s LiFePo4. These have a different (lower) voltage range, and you’d need a charger with specific support for them. That used to be a problem, but it’s not anymore. You can find chargers in all price ranges for these. They are a lot safer than other Li-chemistries, and they’ll survive something like 10 times the number of cycles (ballpark of 2000 vs 200). They can often support a higher current, they’re more forgiving on overcharging, and so on and so forth. You’re paying the same tradeoff as the other chemistries though, with less energy density, but better safety and higher current. They do have another property that makes them really nice for radios though, which is a fairly flat discharge curve, spending most of their time around 3.2V. Four of them in series would give you about 12.8V for most of the discharge, a much better voltage for our needs, than “regular” LiIon which would be between 9.9V and 12.6V for a 3-cell, or 13.2V and 16.8V for a 4-cell battery. Yeah, Li-batteries can be scary, but so can any other high concentration of energy. If you pick your cells carefully, protect them physically and electrically (charging, usage, fuse, etc), keep a watchful eye on them (temperature? signs of damage?), then you can greatly reduce any risk, even to a lower level than the LiPo you probably have in your cellphone. Personally I’m probably going to go with 18650 or 26650 LiFePo4 batteries, two packs of 4S1P. Just haven’t decided yet if I want a read made pack, or if I want to set the pack up myself. The latter would probably allow for easier removal of the cells, to charge them externally. For those of you in Europe, nkon.nl is a trusted supplier with good prices (though currently not shipping to Norway last I checked).. 73, Terje Elde / LB8KH ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: LiIon types, and safety (was: Fire in the house li-ion)
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> On May 24, 2017, at 1:31 PM, Terje Elde <[hidden email]> wrote: > > There are LiIons out there (18650 and maybe also 14500) that have built-in protections against all sorts of things, including both under- and overvoltage. That can significantly reduce various risks associated with them. The custom battery pack for the KX2 (KXBT2) is one of these. Our pack includes the protection module inside the shrink-wrap. We allowed for this in dimensioning the radio. We extensively tested 20 prototypes of the battery and charger, and were very thorough in ensuring they were safe to use. That said, we also provide a comprehensive list of guidelines for battery pack charging, storage and use, in the documentation that comes with the pack. 73, Wayne N6KR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: LiIon types, and safety (was: Fire in the house li-ion)
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Which is why I've given up on homebrewing an extra pack - albeit for
external use - I have bought another KXBT2! I have to say though, that I'm still not finding it totally straightforward getting the two halves of the KX2 back together again after replacing the battery. When I received the KX2, the battery wires were pinched between the case and the edge of the vertical filter board and were already showing chafing of the insulation. Having removed and reinstalled the filter board in installing the ATU, I now no longer have the speaker cables pinched, but I have to be very careful how I dress the speaker cables before putting the two halves of the case back together. I wonder if there could be some further guidance from Elecraft on this? On a different topic, having now bought the option which includes the clock module, I'm looking forward to the firmware update which will provide us with the logbook data based upon transmitted CW text! Thanks in anticipation Wayne! 73 Stephen, G4SJP On 24 May 2017 at 22:01, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > On May 24, 2017, at 1:31 PM, Terje Elde <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > There are LiIons out there (18650 and maybe also 14500) that have > built-in protections against all sorts of things, including both under- and > overvoltage. That can significantly reduce various risks associated with > them. > > > The custom battery pack for the KX2 (KXBT2) is one of these. Our pack > includes the protection module inside the shrink-wrap. We allowed for this > in dimensioning the radio. > > We extensively tested 20 prototypes of the battery and charger, and were > very thorough in ensuring they were safe to use. That said, we also provide > a comprehensive list of guidelines for battery pack charging, storage and > use, in the documentation that comes with the pack. > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: LiIon types, and safety (was: Fire in the house li-ion)
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
> On 24 May 2017, at 23:01, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >> On May 24, 2017, at 1:31 PM, Terje Elde <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> There are LiIons out there (18650 and maybe also 14500) that have built-in protections against all sorts of things, including both under- and overvoltage. That can significantly reduce various risks associated with them. > > > The custom battery pack for the KX2 (KXBT2) is one of these. Our pack includes the protection module inside the shrink-wrap. We allowed for this in dimensioning the radio. > > We extensively tested 20 prototypes of the battery and charger, and were very thorough in ensuring they were safe to use. That said, we also provide a comprehensive list of guidelines for battery pack charging, storage and use, in the documentation that comes with the pack. Hi list, When I did the quick writeup on battery chemistries etc, I was thinking mostly about situations where you pick batteries yourself, for external batteries. While I came out recommending LiFePo4 for that, I didn’t really have internal batteries like in the KX2 in mind. Internal batteries are a different ballgame, for the reasons Wayne mentioned. They’re often matched to a unit, provided with a lot of safety features, and then finally protected by a hard shell securing the physical package. Also, LiFePo4s wouldn’t make sense in such a miniaturised setup, due to the lower energy density. You’d trade up in size and weight, or down in runtime. Such packages as in the KX2, with internal safety features are commonly used by a lot of makers with comparatively little knowledge compared to HAMs, and they are fairly safe. LiIon is scary enough to be cautions, but so is lead acid, gasoline, and any other high energy density thing. Stay on the safe side, make good choices and buy from reputable brands and vendors, protect things and be careful, and you should be just fine. Terje ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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