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Paul VanOveren-2

Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

Russian website with claimed scores from last weekend. Very cool video embedded from HI3A, with 2 K3”s prominently displayed... you can look up your score in the search box, for your ranking in the World, North America or just USA....

Subject: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

http://pileup.ru/cqww_cw.php?year=2011
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Cady, Fred

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the
pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s
AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had
to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable.
I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold
cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my
measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4,
S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.

Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
to replace the K3 :-(

73,
Fred
KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul VanOveren
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 6:16 AM
To: elecraft reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed
scores

Russian website with claimed scores from last weekend. Very cool video
embedded from HI3A, with 2 K3"s prominently displayed... you can look up
your score in the search box, for your ranking in the World, North
America or just USA....

Subject: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

http://pileup.ru/cqww_cw.php?year=2011
______________________________________________________________
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w0mu

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

We never saw this at J6 and the pileups were huge. Are you certain that
the radio is not broken in some way? G0DVJ said the K3 was very
impressive in its ability to handle the huge pileups and crowded
conditions. He is probably going to be purchasing one.

Are you using the noise blanker by chance? What is the build out of
that radio. Was this a multi transmitter operation? If so could it be
the other radio is trashing the K3? We used NQN bandpass filters and
never heard each other. Are you close to any high power AM broadcast
stations? Does this happen on all bands or just some?

Many times I had to crank in the filters to widths that other radios
could not possibly handle and I worked my way back into my main pile
picking out calls one at a time. The audio was always crystal clear.

If the K3 can't do it , no radio can. Maybe the FTDX5000 but it is not
a radio that can travel. The TS-590 might if they had bothered to offer
roofing filter options.

W0MU

On 12/4/11 7:11 AM, Cady, Fred wrote:

> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the
> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s
> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had
> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable.
> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold
> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my
> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4,
> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.
>
> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
> to replace the K3 :-(
>
> 73,
> Fred
> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul VanOveren
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 6:16 AM
> To: elecraft reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed
> scores
>
> Russian website with claimed scores from last weekend. Very cool video
> embedded from HI3A, with 2 K3"s prominently displayed... you can look up
> your score in the search box, for your ranking in the World, North
> America or just USA....
>
>
> Subject: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
>
>
> http://pileup.ru/cqww_cw.php?year=2011
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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Merv Schweigert

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by Cady, Fred

Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring
out the
raving crowd of "mine is just fine".
I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the
parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher.
There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of
actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far
enough
in the adjustment ranges.
Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned
the K3,
it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation,
whether its the
audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding
like
rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds
harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how
nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone.
And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried
every setting
and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a
satisfactory
outcome on audio or AGC pileup management.
Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6

w0mu

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

Did you try the DSP upgrade? Have you pulled the front panel off and
cleaned the contacts with Deoxit?

Does age start to factor in to this observation? I know everything in
the past is always better.....Ie we tend to forget how things really
were. At 47 I have some loss of hearing at certain ranges due to
issues with my ears as a child. My FT101EE did not sound better than my K3.

On 12/4/11 8:53 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote:

> Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring
> out the
> raving crowd of "mine is just fine".
> I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the
> parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher.
> There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of
> actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far
> enough
> in the adjustment ranges.
> Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned
> the K3,
> it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation,
> whether its the
> audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding
> like
> rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds
> harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how
> nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone.
> And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried
> every setting
> and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a
> satisfactory
> outcome on audio or AGC pileup management.
> Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6
>> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the
>> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s
>> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had
>> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable.
>> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold
>> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my
>> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4,
>> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
>> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
>> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
>> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
>> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
>> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
>> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.
>>
>> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
>> to replace the K3 :-(
>>
>> 73,
>> Fred
>> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW
>>
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Dave Perry N4QS

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimedscores

In reply to this post by Cady, Fred

Having just operated from V31 with a TS850S and big EU and JA pileups, I
sure wish I would have had my K3 from home. I used a TS850S for twenty
years before purchasing my K3 two years ago. Using one again at a DX
location gave me the opportunity to compare it to the K3. In short, there
is no comparison between that old "analog" radio to the K3. The pileups on
10M and 12M SSB were so huge that all I could hear on the 850 was mush. I
had to spread sigs out over a 10 kHz spectrum to hear anything. I am sure
the K3 would have struggled with the pileups as well, but it would have been
much more manageable. This is not to say that I wouldn't be in favor of
some tweaking of the AGC options within the K3. W2LK and K2SX replaced me
at the V31 location, and they both brought their K3s for the CQ WW DX test.
It would be interesting to get their take on the K3s in action. Of course,
we know that most of the big dxpeditions still chose K3s and I am often
amazed how many of these stations can dig my modest sig out of the huge
pileups.

Dave, N4QS - V31QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cady, Fred" <[hidden email]>
To: "Paul VanOveren" <[hidden email]>; "elecraft reflector"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial
claimedscores

Jan Erik Holm-2

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by Cady, Fred

Indeed! This was reported many many moons ago, also by me.
No fix I guess, just the way the K3 is.
/SM2EKM
On 2011-12-04 15:11, Cady, Fred wrote:

> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.
>
> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
> to replace the K3 :-(
>
> 73,
> Fred
> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW

Jan Erik Holm-2

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

Oh by the way, this "thing" is not an audio thing. It is
something totally different.

Think this issue was discussed last year. There where
some leads on it but don´t know the outcome, if any.

/Jim SM2EKM
---------------
On 2011-12-04 18:05, Jan Erik Holm wrote:

> Indeed! This was reported many many moons ago, also by me.
> No fix I guess, just the way the K3 is.
> /SM2EKM
> On 2011-12-04 15:11, Cady, Fred wrote:
>> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
>> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
>> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
>> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
>> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
>> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
>> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.
>>
>> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
>> to replace the K3 :-(
>>
>> 73,
>> Fred
>> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW

David Gilbert

Re: K3 AGC Mush

In reply to this post by Cady, Fred

This has been a very real problem for serious contesters and is the
number one dissatisfaction I have with the K3 ... and with Elecraft.

Multiple low level CW signals within a narrow passband simply turn to
mush and are very difficult to distinguish. I use the bare minimum AGC
settings in an attempt to cope since turning AGC completely off during a
contest can be painful to both the ears and the K3 itself (as those who
have had to replace their audio ICs can attest) but that often does not
adequately deal with the problem. I have had little doubt that the
culprit is some kind of low end nonlinearity and it is nice to know that
your measurements tend to confirm that, but what I simply don't
understand is why we have heard so little from Elecraft on this topic.
On just about every other issue (even mind-blowingly trivial ones)
Elecraft has responded quickly and effectively with both an explanation
and a solution, but on this very important one we have heard virtually
nothing and there seems to be no viable solution on the horizon. I
don't know if Elecraft doesn't believe the problem actually exists
(possible, since I don't think any of the principle players consider
themselves contesters first and foremost) or if they don't believe it is
important or if they simply don't have a solution. The silence has been
deafening, though.

I personally know at least two top-tier contesters that are seriously
considering replacing their K3s with a different rig because of this
single issue, and I personally know two others who did not buy a K3
because of it. If I knew then what I know now I would not have bought
my K3 either. I spent a lot of money (tower, antennas, amplifiier) to
be able to put a strong signal into various DX locations, and it is
simply embarrassing to be working a pileup with a half dozen weak
callers that obviously can hear me fine and not be able to pick their
callsigns out of the mush.

No, it is not my ears and no, it is not my ability to copy CW.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm really really really tired of this
fundamental problem being ignored. We at least deserve some sort of
explanation.

Dave AB7E

On 12/4/2011 7:11 AM, Cady, Fred wrote:

Doug Turnbull

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

Guys,
I believe we should pay attention to Fred Cady, KE7X who is author of
The Elecraft K3 Design, Configuration and Operation. He is also a retired
Professor of EE. Maybe there is something here which can be defined and
sorted. This is an interesting topic for me and I wonder if it is possible
to do still better things with the K3.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jan Erik Holm
Sent: 04 December 2011 17:50
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed
scores

Oh by the way, this "thing" is not an audio thing. It is
something totally different.

Think this issue was discussed last year. There where
some leads on it but don´t know the outcome, if any.

/Jim SM2EKM
---------------
On 2011-12-04 18:05, Jan Erik Holm wrote:

______________________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Merv Schweigert

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by w0mu

> Did you try the DSP upgrade? Have you pulled the front panel off and
> cleaned the contacts with Deoxit?
>
Yes to all the above, and those things have nothing to do with the AGC
problems, and
little if any to do with audio harshness.. my K3 is up to date as it comes.
> Does age start to factor in to this observation? I know everything in
> the past is always better.....Ie we tend to forget how things really
> were. At 47 I have some loss of hearing at certain ranges due to
> issues with my ears as a child. My FT101EE did not sound better than my K3.
>
I have the analog radios sitting right beside the K3 so comparison is
now today A=B I have
them hooked to the same antennas same speakers etc all through switching
so can compare
apples to apples.
I have more hearing loss I am sure at 67 than you do, so my comparison
would probably be
more critical if I had better hearing.
I am talking good analog radios, not some old obsolete boatanchor.
73 Merv

> On 12/4/11 8:53 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote:
>
>> Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring
>> out the
>> raving crowd of "mine is just fine".
>> I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the
>> parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher.
>> There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of
>> actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far
>> enough
>> in the adjustment ranges.
>> Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned
>> the K3,
>> it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation,
>> whether its the
>> audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding
>> like
>> rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds
>> harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how
>> nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone.
>> And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried
>> every setting
>> and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a
>> satisfactory
>> outcome on audio or AGC pileup management.
>> Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6
>>
>>> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the
>>> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s
>>> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had
>>> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable.
>>> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold
>>> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my
>>> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4,
>>> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
>>> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
>>> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
>>> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
>>> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
>>> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
>>> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.
>>>
>>> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
>>> to replace the K3 :-(
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Fred
>>> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

David Gilbert

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by w0mu

Pileups with strong signals are not the problem, at least if you
optimize the AGC settings. The K3 works quite well in those situations,
in my opinion. It's the pileups with several low level signals that are
the problem, and I never use the noise blanker. I don't need to since
I'm in a semi-rural location with almost zero noise. I only use one
radio and the nearest commercial station of any sort is 20 miles away.

The problem is real.

Dave AB7E

On 12/4/2011 8:48 AM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:

> We never saw this at J6 and the pileups were huge. Are you certain that
> the radio is not broken in some way? G0DVJ said the K3 was very
> impressive in its ability to handle the huge pileups and crowded
> conditions. He is probably going to be purchasing one.
>
> Are you using the noise blanker by chance? What is the build out of
> that radio. Was this a multi transmitter operation? If so could it be
> the other radio is trashing the K3? We used NQN bandpass filters and
> never heard each other. Are you close to any high power AM broadcast
> stations? Does this happen on all bands or just some?
>
> Many times I had to crank in the filters to widths that other radios
> could not possibly handle and I worked my way back into my main pile
> picking out calls one at a time. The audio was always crystal clear.
>
> If the K3 can't do it , no radio can. Maybe the FTDX5000 but it is not
> a radio that can travel. The TS-590 might if they had bothered to offer
> roofing filter options.
>
> W0MU
>
>
>
> On 12/4/11 7:11 AM, Cady, Fred wrote:
>> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the
>> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s
>> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had
>> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable.
>> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold
>> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my
>> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4,
>> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
>> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
>> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
>> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
>> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
>> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
>> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.
>>
>> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
>> to replace the K3 :-(
>>
>> 73,
>> Fred
>> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul VanOveren
>> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 6:16 AM
>> To: elecraft reflector
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed
>> scores
>>
>> Russian website with claimed scores from last weekend. Very cool video
>> embedded from HI3A, with 2 K3"s prominently displayed... you can look up
>> your score in the search box, for your ranking in the World, North
>> America or just USA....
>>
>>
>> Subject: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
>>
>>
>> http://pileup.ru/cqww_cw.php?year=2011
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

David Gilbert

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by w0mu

Condescending remarks are not helpful.

Dave AB7E

On 12/4/2011 9:00 AM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:

> Did you try the DSP upgrade? Have you pulled the front panel off and
> cleaned the contacts with Deoxit?
>
> Does age start to factor in to this observation? I know everything in
> the past is always better.....Ie we tend to forget how things really
> were. At 47 I have some loss of hearing at certain ranges due to
> issues with my ears as a child. My FT101EE did not sound better than my K3.
>
> On 12/4/11 8:53 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote:
>> Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring
>> out the
>> raving crowd of "mine is just fine".
>> I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the
>> parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher.
>> There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of
>> actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far
>> enough
>> in the adjustment ranges.
>> Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned
>> the K3,
>> it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation,
>> whether its the
>> audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding
>> like
>> rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds
>> harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how
>> nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone.
>> And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried
>> every setting
>> and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a
>> satisfactory
>> outcome on audio or AGC pileup management.
>> Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6
>>> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the
>>> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s
>>> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had
>>> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable.
>>> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold
>>> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my
>>> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4,
>>> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
>>> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
>>> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
>>> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
>>> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
>>> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
>>> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.
>>>
>>> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
>>> to replace the K3 :-(
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Fred
>>> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW
>>>
>>>
>>>

Tony Estep

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

I sort of thought I was the only one who noticed this. Weak stations in
Missouri don't generate pileups, so I encounter this only in certain
situations when a lot of U.S. stations are trying to work a DX station on
or around his frequency. Recently there have been quite a few situations
when the DX station is about 1 s-unit stronger than the callers, but even
so it the mush makes it hard or impossible to tell who he's answering. I've
found it frustrating because it's happened with A52PP and XW3DT, important
DX that is rarely heard in this part of the country. Because it happens
only occasionally, I didn't consider Fred's diagnosis of the problem; I
just figured it was one of the travails of our mortal existence. But those
contesters who encounter it over and over are in a much better position to
judge. I would love it if the K3's performance in this situation could
magically ameliorate the problem.

Tony KT0NY

--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K3 AGC Mush

Administrator

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

Hi David,

We're keenly aware of this and have been trying to reproduce this here
in the lab for a long time without success.

This is an issue that has been reported for years on a wide range of
radios from all of the manufacturers, with conflicting reports pro/con
on each radio. Each person reporting mush on RX has a different idea of
what they are hearing too. We have received anecdotal reports of RX mush
on huge pile-ups from some stations, and reports of absolutely no mush
from others who are operating in the same situations at the receiving
end of the pile-ups. (including from the recent CQWW contest.)

We are working directly with a number of contesters and DXers to see
what can be done to parametrize what is actually happening and to make
this easier to reproduce in a testable situation. We've tested versus
other radios here and have worked with a number of those who have
reported this issue. Its frustrating as we are unable to create a
repeatable stimulus situation where we can test and evaluate different
approaches to AGC and other areas that might impact 'mush'.

Also of interest is the rise of reverse spotting networks and the
resulting high number of stations calling DX on -exactly- the same
frequency, which is a huge problem for any radio. This may be increasing
the reports of RX pile-up mush as large numbers of callers follow the
packet and reverse spotting network reports.

Also, in the heat of the contest or DX pile up most reporters do not
recall how they had their AGC parameters set (threshold, slope, AGC
decay soft/hard, fast or slow, and fast/slow settings etc. If you can
let us know your complete set up for AGC parameters, if you are using
headphones or speakers, the signal strengths, CW or SSB, RX b/w, what
different settings you tried etc., that will be extremely helpful.

One note - If signals are below S9+20 and turning AGC off does not help,
its probably not a DSP AGC or H/W AGC issue.

Also, make sure to use the AGC Limiter menu setting to hard limit audio
levels if you use AGC OFF.

We're in the process of trying a number of items and here will post here
as soon as we have something definitive. Please feel free to email us
directly with anything you think might help us get a handle on this.

73, Eric
www.elecraft.com

_..._

On 12/4/2011 9:55 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
> This has been a very real problem for serious contesters and is the
> number one dissatisfaction I have with the K3 ... and with Elecraft.
>
> Multiple low level CW signals within a narrow passband simply turn to
> mush and are very difficult to distinguish. I use the bare minimum AGC
> settings in an attempt to cope since turning AGC completely off during a
> contest can be painful to both the ears and the K3 itself (as those who
> have had to replace their audio ICs can attest) but that often does not
> adequately deal with the problem.
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LA8AW

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

ZK2V seems to have some 'experience' AGC as well.

Check out his homepage, http://www.zk2v.com/ and read Chris comments from
Nov.4th.

And he - probably more than anyone else - experience the issue - with
38500+ QSO's in the log from the DX side since end of October.

_____________________

73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil
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w0mu

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

What was condescending? Hearing loss could be a factor especially with
a ham population that is not getting younger. Sorry if you felt
slighted. My grandfather could never pass the 20wpm code test because
of hearing loss and his description is very similar to many of the
comments made here in the forum it all becomes muddled and he was unable
to determine how many dits or dahs were sent. Lets eliminate all the
easy reasons before diving into the most complex solutions.

Hams are always looking for the next best rig. Maybe the new Kenwood
will be better at some things but worse at others. There is no perfect
rig they all have their ups and downs.

I am glad Elecraft is attempting to isolate this with more scientific
data instead of anecdotal comments. Did anyone bother to record any of
the mushiness they are describing? Use the line out and an audio
capture program. I would love to hear what you are hearing.

On 12/4/11 11:08 AM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> Condescending remarks are not helpful.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
> On 12/4/2011 9:00 AM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:
>> Did you try the DSP upgrade? Have you pulled the front panel off and
>> cleaned the contacts with Deoxit?
>>
>> Does age start to factor in to this observation? I know everything in
>> the past is always better.....Ie we tend to forget how things really
>> were. At 47 I have some loss of hearing at certain ranges due to
>> issues with my ears as a child. My FT101EE did not sound better than my K3.
>>
>> On 12/4/11 8:53 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote:
>>> Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring
>>> out the
>>> raving crowd of "mine is just fine".
>>> I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the
>>> parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher.
>>> There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of
>>> actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far
>>> enough
>>> in the adjustment ranges.
>>> Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned
>>> the K3,
>>> it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation,
>>> whether its the
>>> audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding
>>> like
>>> rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds
>>> harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how
>>> nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone.
>>> And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried
>>> every setting
>>> and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a
>>> satisfactory
>>> outcome on audio or AGC pileup management.
>>> Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6
>>>> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the
>>>> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s
>>>> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had
>>>> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable.
>>>> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold
>>>> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my
>>>> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4,
>>>> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC
>>>> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve
>>>> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to
>>>> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio
>>>> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I
>>>> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced
>>>> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure.
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio
>>>> to replace the K3 :-(
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Fred
>>>> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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w0mu

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by LA8AW

5khz listening split is very small for an SSB pileup as most signals
occupy 3kz so a 5khz split allows for little separation. The European
and Asian pileups at J6 on 12 and 10m were monstrous yet we worked many
stations. If you have 200 people calling in a 5khz range do you really
expect to get much more than a letter here or there except for the
really loud stations? When the pileup was huge I would simply turn
down the power and fewer people would call. Work those off and turn the
power back up and work the next wave.

On 12/4/11 12:39 PM, LA8AW wrote:

> ZK2V seems to have some 'experience' AGC as well.
>
> Check out his homepage, http://www.zk2v.com/ and read Chris comments from
> Nov.4th.
>
> And he - probably more than anyone else - experience the issue - with
> 38500+ QSO's in the log from the DX side since end of October.
>
> _____________________
>
> 73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil
> _____________________
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Merv Schweigert

Re: K3 AGC Mush

In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

> Also, in the heat of the contest or DX pile up most reporters do not
> recall how they had their AGC parameters set (threshold, slope, AGC
> decay soft/hard, fast or slow, and fast/slow settings etc. If you can
> let us know your complete set up for AGC parameters, if you are using
> headphones or speakers, the signal strengths, CW or SSB, RX b/w, what
> different settings you tried etc., that will be extremely helpful.
>
AGC DCY = NOR
AGG HLD = 20
AGC PLS = NOR
AGC SLP = 000
AGC THR = 008
AGC F = 200
AGC S = 020

Headphones and speaker, no difference
signals S3-S4 range
CW
all bandwidths, use mostly 400hz and narrower.
Tried AGC DCY = SOFT (have PF1 programmed to switch that in and out fast)
ALL settings of SLP and THR
Turning off the AGC improves the "mush".
Loud signals are no problem at all, the K3 handles loud signals better than
any radio.. its when multiple signals of about S-4 are on this occurs,
more
than two or three, a pile up of same strength signals.
I can understand it may difficult to reproduce unless you have a way to
have
10 signals of the same strength, close to the same freq, and keying, just a
carrier will not reproduce the effect, has to be keyed signals you are
trying
to copy. They turn into a single level buzz of sorts.

One note - If signals are below S9+20 and turning AGC off does not help,
> its probably not a DSP AGC or H/W AGC issue.
>
> Also, make sure to use the AGC Limiter menu setting to hard limit audio
> levels if you use AGC OFF.
>
Never use NR or NB and have the AGC limiter set for no AGC times.

In my rough gestimation it seems that signals in the S3-S4 range need to
not trigger
the AGC as they do, if one could set the THR to higher level? perhaps
it would stop the
problem.
Is it possible to increase the range of SLP and THR to move the point
where S-3 or S-4
signals trigger the AGC?
Thanks much Eric. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6
>

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Grant Youngman

Re: Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores

In reply to this post by w0mu

What I find most bothersome about these rants, is that somehow certain of the owner class seems to think that Elecraft OWES them a solution or an explanation. As though "mush" is enough of a description for a DSP wizard to have an epiphany and write a few lines of code and fix the problem, which is ill defined and probably difficult to reproduce in the lab.

More telling is that it has been pointed out that turning off AGC eliminates the effects. I don't know about these guys, but turning off AGC when the issue is recognized -- since they can clearly recognize it -- sounds like a far more sane and reasonable solution than blaming their contest scores and apparent 'embarrassment' on 'mush' and trying to get some other radio vendor to fix whatever problem shows up in THAT radio.

Isn't it reasonable to assume that a 'top contester' should know how to utilize his equipment beyond turning it on and twisting the dial? Geez.

Grant/NQ5T

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2011, at 1:44 PM, Mike Fatchett W0MU <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> I am glad Elecraft is attempting to isolate this with more scientific
> data instead of anecdotal comments. Did anyone bother to record any of
> the mushiness they are describing? Use the line out and an audio
> capture program. I would love to hear what you are hearing.
>
>
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1234