Give us a network interface

[Brendan Minish]

USB  has it place but if it's 'just' to get rid of the serial port by
moving the Serial/USB conversion inside the radio then I don't see the
point

On Mon, 2010-08-30 at 15:44 -0400, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> The problem of insisting on Ham radio equipment manufactures
> supporting the patently NON-standard USB standard is driving up
> mamufacturer's costs and running into problems every time the OS has
> to be patched to get around some security hack. Followed by Wayne
> having to upgrade and recertify the Elecraft drivers before the fix
> can be distributed.  Microsoft is NOT paying for this stuff.

What's Microsoft got to do with it ;-)
In linux USB hardware support is in general very good indeed where
vendors publish in full the specs needed to create a driver, it's a bit
less good (to non-existent) where vendors treat the interface spec as
proprietary.
With USB serial adapters (and USB soundcards ) I haven't yet met a
single one that does not 'just work' with recent kernels. Windows on the
other hand is a bloody nightmare with many USB devices and usb serial
converters.

--
73
Brendan EI6IZ

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

  Lets end this recurring thread for now.
Please search the Nabble Archives at
http://www.elecraft.com/elist.html for prior conversations on this topic.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
Elecraft list Modulator
---


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[Nicholas Farrar]

My thought exactly. I think we would rather be ahead of the curve on this
one. Serial(RS-232) will become more and more difficult on the x86-64
platform. It might not be the most cost effective but what about fiber
optics? Fiber optic PC cards are getting cheaper($100-$200) and fiber would
introduce no RFI into the K3. That is just one idea. I personally would be
happy with CAT6 cable.


Re: [Elecraft] Give us a network interface

>From  my perspective, I see serial interfaces as increasingly
problematic due to unavailability.

PC motherboard manufacturers are dropping serial ports due to a
widespread lack of use and interest.   And as many have noted, USB to
serial converters can be a PITA.

My current Mobo, which is about 3 years old and due for replacement this
winter, has one serial port that exists on some header that is not
brought out to the rear panel.   Finding a PCI RS-232 serial board for
it that had Win 7-64 drivers was a challenge.    I only found one.  When
Win 8 comes around next year the number of supported serial boards could
easily become zero.  PCI slots are also on the way out, many current
high end boards now only include one "token" PCI slot with the rest of
the slots being some flavor of PCI-E

None of the current issue motherboards I'm considering for my next
station PC include a serial port or more than one PCI slot.

So, I'm sorry for those who find serial ports warm and comforting, but
they a about to join paper tape punches/readers, 8 inch floppys, and
CRTs on the list of quaint old technologies that are no longer
manufactured or supportable.

In the meanwhile, rigs and other station equipment are ever increasingly
interconnected and interdependent (read "networked").

Clinging to serial ports is not really a viable option going forward,
neither in terms of providing the desired functionality nor of being
supported by general market hardware/software suppliers.   TCP/IP over
Ethernet wouldn't exactly be a giant leap into the future but it is
already supported by any number of ham applications for networking and
for internal communications between modules.

In the meanwhile I'm really glad to have LP_Bridge and the MicroHam
Router so the station works almost like it had a real network.


73 Jack KZ5A
K3 #4165

--
Nicholas W. Farrar
Network Engineer / IT Coordinator

Brown Folse PACS
[hidden email]

Office  318-595-0451
Mobile [phone]
Fax     [phone]
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[wayne burdick]

As long as PCs have USB ports, and as long as there are USB to RS232  
adapters available, then the K2, K3, and other rigs having RS232  
control will be 100% supported. No one need worry about installing an  
RS232 card in their computer.

Future Elecraft products will have additional I/O options, possibly  
including USB and/or Ethernet, but I can't make predictions beyond that.

It is also possible for the K3's present digital daughter board to be  
replaced with one having USB, Ethernet, or a combination of I/O ports.  
We might look at this. Of course we would continue to offer the  
existing unit, with RS232, as long as there is a need for it.

Thanks for all your thoughts on the matter.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:16 AM, Nicholas Farrar wrote:

> My thought exactly. I think we would rather be ahead of the curve on  
> this
> one. Serial(RS-232) will become more and more difficult on the x86-64
> platform. It might not be the most cost effective but what about fiber
> optics? Fiber optic PC cards are getting cheaper($100-$200) and  
> fiber would
> introduce no RFI into the K3. That is just one idea. I personally  
> would be
> happy with CAT6 cable.


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[w9gb]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Guy, K2AV]

There are PCI-X multiserial cards available that plug into the forward
section of PCIx16 video slots.  These are readily available and PCIx16
is not going away anytime soon being a very popular video format.  The
demise of serial ports is overstated. Thankfully the serial port is
not being pushed by new game designers, extending speed and changing
behavior to suit a new game every other week like USB.   Worry about
this interface when video card people give up on PCIXnn slots.
Industrial users are interested in spending money on new equipment and
then using it for free for twenty or thirty years.  It is the
extremely expensive industrial peripheral equipment that will keep
serial ports in use for another decade or two.  If it costs them
money, industrial users would just as soon Microsoft walked off a
cliff.  Their engineers are really nasty about spending money based on
someone else's consumer-grade eye-candy.  There's
hope-you-will-buy-my-new-gizmo salesmen TRYING to drive a market, and
there's financial reality.

There is a REASON why TV graphics are confined to a 4x3 box on a high
def 16x9 presentation of a sports game.  MOST people are watching on a
converter ahead of a 4x3 box.  My wife has our 16x9 TV in the game
room on the PS3.  According to her, I have to wait for the big 31 inch
4x3 to fail before putting up a 50 inch in the living room.  The set
has a super-video input fed with a digital converter that has S-video
out, and it is actually very sharp.  The marketeers don't want you to
know what you can so with S-video and a converter box.  They don't
want you to know about serial ports either.  No volume in it. No
money.

Wierdness with my K3 connected to my computer went away when I quit
using USB in favor of a PCIX serial card.  I picked serial 1 and 2
which are assigned by the OS at bootup, not juggled in the air,
depending on whatever in the USB way.  A whole bunch of now and then
weirdness that would never trouble-shoot just went away and the serial
ports just run.  No wheezes, no dropouts, no weirdness, no drop
connects, no freezeups, no nuthin.  Just run.  What a concept.

These are cheap cards.  Do a google search on "PCIX serial card".
Over 1.8 million hits.  Many manufacturers.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:08 PM, G. Beat <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> There are Ethernet (TCP/IP) terminal servers supporting at least one RS-232 port
>
> as well as additional A/D lines readily available on market for less then $100 (proper qty).
>
> Some even support two RS-232 ports.
>
>
>
> Just need to look at inside cover of Circuit Cellar monthly magazine or
>
> a recent issue of Elector magazine (now available in the USA)
>
>
>
> The chips are inexpensive -- typical radio amateur knowledge to use them -- rare !
>
>
>
> Greg
>
> w9gb
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [hidden email]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:00:05 AM
> Subject: Give us a network interface (Wayne Burdick)
>
>
>
> As long as PCs have USB ports, and as long as there are USB to RS232
> adapters available, then the K2, K3, and other rigs having RS232
> control will be 100% supported. No one need worry about installing an
> RS232 card in their computer.
>
> Future Elecraft products will have additional I/O options, possibly
> including USB and/or Ethernet, but I can't make predictions beyond that.
>
> It is also possible for the K3's present digital daughter board to be
> replaced with one having USB, Ethernet, or a combination of I/O ports.
> We might look at this. Of course we would continue to offer the
> existing unit, with RS232, as long as there is a need for it.
>
> Thanks for all your thoughts on the matter.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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[rlindzen]

I have noticed that most motherboards still have a serial port if the
user provides the jack.

Dick WO1I #911

At 01:53 PM 8/31/2010, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

>There are PCI-X multiserial cards available that plug into the forward
>section of PCIx16 video slots.  These are readily available and PCIx16
>is not going away anytime soon being a very popular video format.  The
>demise of serial ports is overstated. Thankfully the serial port is
>not being pushed by new game designers, extending speed and changing
>behavior to suit a new game every other week like USB.   Worry about
>this interface when video card people give up on PCIXnn slots.
>Industrial users are interested in spending money on new equipment and
>then using it for free for twenty or thirty years.  It is the
>extremely expensive industrial peripheral equipment that will keep
>serial ports in use for another decade or two.  If it costs them
>money, industrial users would just as soon Microsoft walked off a
>cliff.  Their engineers are really nasty about spending money based on
>someone else's consumer-grade eye-candy.  There's
>hope-you-will-buy-my-new-gizmo salesmen TRYING to drive a market, and
>there's financial reality.
>
>There is a REASON why TV graphics are confined to a 4x3 box on a high
>def 16x9 presentation of a sports game.  MOST people are watching on a
>converter ahead of a 4x3 box.  My wife has our 16x9 TV in the game
>room on the PS3.  According to her, I have to wait for the big 31 inch
>4x3 to fail before putting up a 50 inch in the living room.  The set
>has a super-video input fed with a digital converter that has S-video
>out, and it is actually very sharp.  The marketeers don't want you to
>know what you can so with S-video and a converter box.  They don't
>want you to know about serial ports either.  No volume in it. No
>money.
>
>Wierdness with my K3 connected to my computer went away when I quit
>using USB in favor of a PCIX serial card.  I picked serial 1 and 2
>which are assigned by the OS at bootup, not juggled in the air,
>depending on whatever in the USB way.  A whole bunch of now and then
>weirdness that would never trouble-shoot just went away and the serial
>ports just run.  No wheezes, no dropouts, no weirdness, no drop
>connects, no freezeups, no nuthin.  Just run.  What a concept.
>
>These are cheap cards.  Do a google search on "PCIX serial card".
>Over 1.8 million hits.  Many manufacturers.
>
>73, Guy.
>
>On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:08 PM, G. Beat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > There are Ethernet (TCP/IP) terminal servers supporting at least
> one RS-232 port
> >
> > as well as additional A/D lines readily available on market for
> less then $100 (proper qty).
> >
> > Some even support two RS-232 ports.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just need to look at inside cover of Circuit Cellar monthly magazine or
> >
> > a recent issue of Elector magazine (now available in the USA)
> >
> >
> >
> > The chips are inexpensive -- typical radio amateur knowledge to
> use them -- rare !
> >
> >
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > w9gb
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:00:05 AM
> > Subject: Give us a network interface (Wayne Burdick)
> >
> >
> >
> > As long as PCs have USB ports, and as long as there are USB to RS232
> > adapters available, then the K2, K3, and other rigs having RS232
> > control will be 100% supported. No one need worry about installing an
> > RS232 card in their computer.
> >
> > Future Elecraft products will have additional I/O options, possibly
> > including USB and/or Ethernet, but I can't make predictions beyond that.
> >
> > It is also possible for the K3's present digital daughter board to be
> > replaced with one having USB, Ethernet, or a combination of I/O ports.
> > We might look at this. Of course we would continue to offer the
> > existing unit, with RS232, as long as there is a need for it.
> >
> > Thanks for all your thoughts on the matter.
> >
> > 73,
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>______________________________________________________________
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[alsopb]

Richard S. Lindzen wrote:
> I have noticed that most motherboards still have a serial port if the
> user provides the jack.
>
 >
Yeah but be careful, the dongles that plug into the motherboard come
with two different wiring patterns.   You have to know which or buy one
of each and try each.  Been there.

73 de Brian/K3KO
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

  folks - this topic was closed yesterday. Please respect the
moderator's request.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
Elecraft moderator, modulator etc.

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[Eugene Balinski]

How about Firewire ?  

73
Gene K1NR

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 08:41:44 -0700
 Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As long as PCs have USB ports, and as long as there are
> USB to RS232  
> adapters available, then the K2, K3, and other rigs
> having RS232  
> control will be 100% supported. No one need worry about
> installing an  
> RS232 card in their computer.
>
> Future Elecraft products will have additional I/O
> options, possibly  
> including USB and/or Ethernet, but I can't make
> predictions beyond that.
>
> It is also possible for the K3's present digital daughter
> board to be  
> replaced with one having USB, Ethernet, or a combination
> of I/O ports.  
> We might look at this. Of course we would continue to
> offer the  
> existing unit, with RS232, as long as there is a need for
> it.
>
> Thanks for all your thoughts on the matter.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:16 AM, Nicholas Farrar wrote:
>
> > My thought exactly. I think we would rather be ahead of
> the curve on  
> > this
> > one. Serial(RS-232) will become more and more difficult
> on the x86-64
> > platform. It might not be the most cost effective but
> what about fiber
> > optics? Fiber optic PC cards are getting
> cheaper($100-$200) and  
> > fiber would
> > introduce no RFI into the K3. That is just one idea. I
> personally  
> > would be
> > happy with CAT6 cable.
>
>
>

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[Eugene Balinski]

Subject was closed.  Did not see it before posting
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[Edward R Cole]

Wayne,

I am concerned about any modifications that impact low-noise and MDS
performance, but can see advantages of Ethernet connection for future
applications.  I would entertain an external Ethernet module that
would talk thru the existing K3 RS-232 interface if this is
practical.  I am not knowledgeable of computer communications (just a
user) to know if this is a good approach.

I currently have both a computer with serial port and use the
prolific USB/serial cable with another computer (with no
problems).  Last week I uploaded new firmware using the USB cable.

Computer technology is moving quickly, so I would not be surprised to
see USB use fading and some more advanced interface take its
place.  A real challenge in the SDR environment.

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 08:41:44 -0700
From: Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Give us a network interface
To: Nicholas Farrar <[hidden email]>
Cc: elecraft <[hidden email]>
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

As long as PCs have USB ports, and as long as there are USB to RS232
adapters available, then the K2, K3, and other rigs having RS232
control will be 100% supported. No one need worry about installing an
RS232 card in their computer.

Future Elecraft products will have additional I/O options, possibly
including USB and/or Ethernet, but I can't make predictions beyond that.

It is also possible for the K3's present digital daughter board to be
replaced with one having USB, Ethernet, or a combination of I/O ports.
We might look at this. Of course we would continue to offer the
existing unit, with RS232, as long as there is a need for it.

Thanks for all your thoughts on the matter.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
EME: 144-QRT*, 432-100w, 1296-QRT*, 3400-fall 2010
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
======================================
*temp
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