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Grounding Mat Chatter

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kf4by

Grounding Mat Chatter

Hi Guys,

I've never posted to this group before but I decided to put in my 2 cents regarding the Grounding Mat discussions. Seems all y'all making this way too scientific......but maybe I'm missing something........

For a grounding mat I simply used the anti-static bag the RF board was packaged in. I clipped my wrist strap to it until the radio grew to be a chassis. At that time I clipped the wrist strap to the chassis but kept the "mat" in place. All sub-assembly components were unwrapped on the "mat". Hence everything was the same potential.

The result: I didn't spend money on a mat I would only occasionally use and #3995 is performing flawlessly. I guess you might call it the "mid-west farm boy" approach, make due with what you have.

Lots of smart folks on this reflector and I really enjoy the technical chatter.

73,
Stan, KF4BY

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

Stan,

Welcome to the Elecraft reflector.

Your techniques may have been just fine, but only time will tell. The
insidious thing about ESD is that it can partially damage components,
which shortens their life. The fact that they do not fail immediately
does not mean that your anti-static measures were effective.

The use of both a wrist strap and an anti-static mat is highly
recommended by Elecraft - what more can I say, it is like an insurance
policy.
Each will have to make their own decisions and take their own chances.
Ask yourself how much you are willing to gamble on your K3 investment?
and then you will have your individual answer to whether to invest in an
anti-static mat or not.

My goal is to provide prospective K3 builders with information like the
above. For myself, I work on other hams gear, so I would be remiss if I
did not use a good anti-static mat on the workbench.

73,
Don W3FPR

kf4by wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I've never posted to this group before but I decided to put in my 2 cents regarding the Grounding Mat discussions. Seems all y'all making this way too scientific......but maybe I'm missing something........
>
> For a grounding mat I simply used the anti-static bag the RF board was packaged in. I clipped my wrist strap to it until the radio grew to be a chassis. At that time I clipped the wrist strap to the chassis but kept the "mat" in place. All sub-assembly components were unwrapped on the "mat". Hence everything was the same potential.
>
> The result: I didn't spend money on a mat I would only occasionally use and #3995 is performing flawlessly. I guess you might call it the "mid-west farm boy" approach, make due with what you have.
>
> Lots of smart folks on this reflector and I really enjoy the technical chatter.
>
> 73,
> Stan, KF4BY
>
>

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David Woolley (E.L)

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

In reply to this post by kf4by

Some of the anti-static bags that Elecraft use are the pink ones. Those
are non-conducting and get their anti-static properties by not
generating static, rather than dissipating it. They would be useless as
an anti-static mat.

kf4by wrote:
>
> For a grounding mat I simply used the anti-static bag the RF board
+ was packaged in. I clipped my wrist strap to it until the radio grew
to be a
+ chassis. At that time I clipped the wrist strap to the chassis but kept
+ the "mat" in place. All sub-assembly components were unwrapped on the
+ "mat". Hence everything was the same potential.

--
David Woolley
"we do not overly restrict the subject matter on the list, and we
encourage postings on a wide range of amateur radio related topics"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
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Dave, G4AON

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

In reply to this post by kf4by

A proper grounding mat costs a fraction of the price of a transceiver,
so why not use a proper mat and avoid the risk? Perhaps Elecraft should
sell anti-static mats and wrist bands.

There have also been complaints that the DSP board upgrade included the
risk of static damaged boards being re-used and shipped to unsuspecting
K3 owners. As has been said on here countless times, static damage
doesn't necessarily show up straight away.

73 Dave, G4AON
-----------------------------
For a grounding mat I simply used the anti-static bag the RF board was
packaged in. I clipped my wrist strap to it until the radio grew to be
a chassis. At that time I clipped the wrist strap to the chassis but
kept the "mat" in place. All sub-assembly components were unwrapped on
the "mat". Hence everything was the same potential.

The result: I didn't spend money on a mat I would only occasionally use
and #3995 is performing flawlessly. I guess you might call it the
"mid-west farm boy" approach, make due with what you have.

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Nick Kennedy

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

This thread got me off onto a tangent, trying to measure resistances on
some of these anti-static materials, such as the black foam pad and the
silvery "plastic" envelope. I had a capacitor discharge through the
unknown and used a MOSFET to monitor the capacitor, since a 10 M-ohm DMM
would have discharged it.

I got 33 G-ohms between two electrodes about an inch apart in one of the
black pads and 4.2 G-ohms between two electrodes 1/4 inch apart in one
of those envelopes.

Discussion on my blog - http://wa5bdu.blogspot.com/

73-Nick, WA5BDU

David Woolley (E.L) wrote:
> Some of the anti-static bags that Elecraft use are the pink ones. Those
> are non-conducting and get their anti-static properties by not
> generating static, rather than dissipating it. They would be useless as
> an anti-static mat.
>
>

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Bob Naumann W5OV

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

Despite this "fact", my K3 survived my totally inadequate use of the pink
packing material and the silvery anti-static bags also.

I think this whole issue is being blown way out of proportion.

If these things were indeed that static sensitive, they'd be dropping like
flies all over the world on a daily basis.

Can we go back to talking about how to use these radios better and stop the
arguing about minutiae?

73,

Bob W5OV

P.S. I installed my DVR board 2 weeks ago (without an "approved" static
mat!) and it works perfectly alone and in conjunction with N1MM.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Woolley (E.L)
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 2:35 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounding Mat Chatter

Some of the anti-static bags that Elecraft use are the pink ones. Those
are non-conducting and get their anti-static properties by not
generating static, rather than dissipating it. They would be useless as
an anti-static mat.

kf4by wrote:
>
> For a grounding mat I simply used the anti-static bag the RF board
+ was packaged in. I clipped my wrist strap to it until the radio grew
to be a
+ chassis. At that time I clipped the wrist strap to the chassis but kept
+ the "mat" in place. All sub-assembly components were unwrapped on the
+ "mat". Hence everything was the same potential.

--
David Woolley
"we do not overly restrict the subject matter on the list, and we
encourage postings on a wide range of amateur radio related topics"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
______________________________________________________________
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lstavenhagen

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

Reminds me of some of the aviation newsgroups I follow - some topics go on and on, die down for a few days/weeks and then start back up all over again (props and oil for example). It's generally things that you can't confirm go one way or the other until after a looong time and a lot of money spent, neither of which pilots have in great quantities hi hi.

I will say tho that I have personally made things like computer parts - DIMMS and a few other things - go kapow with ESD especially in carpetted rooms with no precautions taken. So with that in mind I went ahead and invested in a good Desco mat and strap before I did my K2 build. I'll use it with my K3 when it gets here next week too. Fortunately, an anti-stat mat is one of those tools you can buy once and use forever and for a variety of different things, i.e. mine serves as the op. table top when I'm not trying to build something. etc.

So ultimately in the end I think it's a worthwhile tool to invest in even with the initial high cost for a good one. But buying good tools is always a good investment, even if you pinch pennies on the thing you build them with, but that's just my personal philosophy.

73,
LS
W5QD

Hisashi T Fujinaka

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

In reply to this post by Bob Naumann W5OV

Being in the semiconductor business and having sat by a anti-static
crusader in a previous company, I can tell you you're completely wrong
about long-term damage. However, if you want to treat your rig like a
normal computer and get a new one in a couple of years, you'll be fine.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010, Bob Naumann wrote:

> Despite this "fact", my K3 survived my totally inadequate use of the pink
> packing material and the silvery anti-static bags also.
>
> I think this whole issue is being blown way out of proportion.
>
> If these things were indeed that static sensitive, they'd be dropping like
> flies all over the world on a daily basis.
>
> Can we go back to talking about how to use these radios better and stop the
> arguing about minutiae?
>
> 73,
>
> Bob W5OV
>
> P.S. I installed my DVR board 2 weeks ago (without an "approved" static
> mat!) and it works perfectly alone and in conjunction with N1MM.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Woolley (E.L)
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 2:35 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounding Mat Chatter
>
> Some of the anti-static bags that Elecraft use are the pink ones. Those
> are non-conducting and get their anti-static properties by not
> generating static, rather than dissipating it. They would be useless as
> an anti-static mat.
>
> kf4by wrote:
>>
>> For a grounding mat I simply used the anti-static bag the RF board
> + was packaged in. I clipped my wrist strap to it until the radio grew
> to be a
> + chassis. At that time I clipped the wrist strap to the chassis but kept
> + the "mat" in place. All sub-assembly components were unwrapped on the
> + "mat". Hence everything was the same potential.
>
>
>

Chris W7CTH

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

This would be like buying a new Apple computer every 2 years.
Chris W7CTH

________________________________
From: Hisashi T Fujinaka <[hidden email]>
To: Bob Naumann <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Sun, March 28, 2010 10:11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounding Mat Chatter

Being in the semiconductor business and having sat by a anti-static
crusader in a previous company, I can tell you you're completely wrong
about long-term damage. However, if you want to treat your rig like a
normal computer and get a new one in a couple of years, you'll be fine.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010, Bob Naumann wrote:

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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The Smiths

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

In reply to this post by Dave, G4AON

Who thought that a Grounding Mat could generate over 100 emails. People, it's a grounding mat. Seriously...

> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:49:10 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounding Mat Chatter
>
> A proper grounding mat costs a fraction of the price of a transceiver,
> so why not use a proper mat and avoid the risk? Perhaps Elecraft should
> sell anti-static mats and wrist bands.
>
> There have also been complaints that the DSP board upgrade included the
> risk of static damaged boards being re-used and shipped to unsuspecting
> K3 owners. As has been said on here countless times, static damage
> doesn't necessarily show up straight away.
>
> 73 Dave, G4AON
> -----------------------------
> For a grounding mat I simply used the anti-static bag the RF board was
> packaged in. I clipped my wrist strap to it until the radio grew to be
> a chassis. At that time I clipped the wrist strap to the chassis but
> kept the "mat" in place. All sub-assembly components were unwrapped on
> the "mat". Hence everything was the same potential.
>
> The result: I didn't spend money on a mat I would only occasionally use
> and #3995 is performing flawlessly. I guess you might call it the
> "mid-west farm boy" approach, make due with what you have.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

_________________________________________________________________
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Jeff Herr

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

In reply to this post by Hisashi T Fujinaka

There is a lot of difference between exposing the radio, i.e. the finished
product (all buttoned up), and the components INSIDE the unit, to static.

The external interface signals are driven by different types of circuits
where the internal logic is least resistant.

Static damage can be long term, as anyone who had tracked product quality
via failure returns can tell you.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Hisashi T Fujinaka
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:12 AM
To: Bob Naumann
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounding Mat Chatter

Being in the semiconductor business and having sat by a anti-static
crusader in a previous company, I can tell you you're completely wrong
about long-term damage. However, if you want to treat your rig like a
normal computer and get a new one in a couple of years, you'll be fine.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010, Bob Naumann wrote:

> Despite this "fact", my K3 survived my totally inadequate use of the pink
> packing material and the silvery anti-static bags also.
>
> I think this whole issue is being blown way out of proportion.
>
> If these things were indeed that static sensitive, they'd be dropping like
> flies all over the world on a daily basis.
>
> Can we go back to talking about how to use these radios better and stop
the

> arguing about minutiae?
>
> 73,
>
> Bob W5OV
>
> P.S. I installed my DVR board 2 weeks ago (without an "approved" static
> mat!) and it works perfectly alone and in conjunction with N1MM.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Woolley (E.L)
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 2:35 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounding Mat Chatter
>
> Some of the anti-static bags that Elecraft use are the pink ones. Those
> are non-conducting and get their anti-static properties by not
> generating static, rather than dissipating it. They would be useless as
> an anti-static mat.
>
> kf4by wrote:
>>
>> For a grounding mat I simply used the anti-static bag the RF board
> + was packaged in. I clipped my wrist strap to it until the radio grew
> to be a
> + chassis. At that time I clipped the wrist strap to the chassis but kept
> + the "mat" in place. All sub-assembly components were unwrapped on the
> + "mat". Hence everything was the same potential.
>
>
>

Ken Alexander-2

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

In reply to this post by Bob Naumann W5OV

Just checking my records here Bob. I think "Obsessimg About Grounding Matts" runs on a quarterly cycle around here. It seems to be winding down now, so you can expect it to start all over again around the end of June.

Too bad Elecraft doesn't included an "approved" grounding matt with each of their kits. It would reduce traffic on the reflector by 20%!

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS

P.S. "Obsessing Over Soldering Irons" should be starting again soon 8-)

--- On Sun, 3/28/10, Bob Naumann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If these things were indeed that static sensitive, they'd be dropping
> like flies all over the world on a daily basis.
>
> Can we go back to talking about how to use these radios better and stop
> the arguing about minutiae?

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lstavenhagen

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

Well you can just imagine the problem for Elecraft if they decided to "approve" a particular ESD mat:
- they'd have to choose one or two out of the bunches of the ones available
- offer some reason they preferred these one or two over the others.
- get them in stock, set a price for them.
- endlessly dodge emails, phone calls about why they chose the ones they did.
- more endless emails, phone calls about what's wrong with the ones they didn't choose.
- try to make money reselling the mats they chose. Reselling something even at break-even doesn't make good business sense, in fact that's kind of a dumb thing to do. A lot of work for no gain.
- more endless emails, phone calls about how they're now charging too much for the mats, we can get the same ones from Mouser for X instead of Y that you're charging,

etc. etc.......

C'mon fellers, lets use our heads on this one hi hi.... Just get a mat and ESD strap from Mouser or etc., read the archives on the reflector and etc. for proper ESD procedures and don't worry about it. I also wouldn't bother pestering Elecraft on this - they know what they're doing. And the precautions we need to take are in the manuals already. etc.....

Just my .02,

73,
LS
W5QD (K3 arrives tomorrow according to UPS)

Terry Schieler

Re: Grounding Mat Chatter

And, hopefully, the UPS truck that delivers your new K3 will have an
anti-static grounding strap dangling from the rear axle. ;o)

Terry, W0FM

-----Original Message-----
From: lstavenhagen [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 9:16 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounding Mat Chatter

Well you can just imagine the problem for Elecraft if they decided to
"approve" a particular ESD mat:
- they'd have to choose one or two out of the bunches of the ones available
- offer some reason they preferred these one or two over the others.
- get them in stock, set a price for them.
- endlessly dodge emails, phone calls about why they chose the ones they
did.
- more endless emails, phone calls about what's wrong with the ones they
didn't choose.
- try to make money reselling the mats they chose. Reselling something even
at break-even doesn't make good business sense, in fact that's kind of a
dumb thing to do. A lot of work for no gain.
- more endless emails, phone calls about how they're now charging too much
for the mats, we can get the same ones from Mouser for X instead of Y that
you're charging,

etc. etc.......

C'mon fellers, lets use our heads on this one hi hi.... Just get a mat and
ESD strap from Mouser or etc., read the archives on the reflector and etc.
for proper ESD procedures and don't worry about it. I also wouldn't bother
pestering Elecraft on this - they know what they're doing. And the
precautions we need to take are in the manuals already. etc.....

Just my .02,

73,
LS
W5QD (K3 arrives tomorrow according to UPS)

--
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