Hakko 808 tips

[Jeremiah McCarthy]

I get the reflector in digest form and did not get to read some of the past week's input until this morning...There is a chemical called "sal ammoniac" (ammonium chloride)...It comes in small white blocks and is sold in hardware stores and tin smith supplyers...I have a block that is probably 40 years old...Sal ammoniac is used to tin soldering iron tips...I use my Hakko 808 quite a lot for stripping and tinning the enamel coated wire in toroids, so the 808 sits cooking in the holder for hours...When my 808 tips start to discolor and reject solder, I re-tin them with sal ammoniac and they are restored to as good as new...These tips are QUITE expensive and we don't want to have to be throwing them out when they are still useful...

Soldering iron tips and de-soldering tips are usually iron plated copper, and they are factory tinned near the tip only...Sometimes the iron coating becomes discolored and will not tin anymore...Filing it will remove the iron plating and ruin the tip...This is where sal ammoniac can be used...If you are not careful, it will tin the ENTIRE tip, even the part that was not factory tinned...

Jerry, wa2dkg
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[Stephen W. Kercel]

Jerry:

I'd be very reluctant to use a soldering iron tip cleaned with sal ammoniac
on electronic equipment. For some manufacturers, it will void the warranty.

I do not recall Elecraft's policy on sal ammoniac, but I'd check with them
before using a soldering iron tip cleaned with sal ammoniac on Elecraft
products.

Steve
AA4AK


At 02:35 PM 10/7/2005 -0500, Jeremiah McCarthy wrote:

>I get the reflector in digest form and did not get to read some of the
>past week's input until this morning...There is a chemical called "sal
>ammoniac" (ammonium chloride)...It comes in small white blocks and is sold
>in hardware stores and tin smith supplyers...I have a block that is
>probably 40 years old...Sal ammoniac is used to tin soldering iron
>tips...I use my Hakko 808 quite a lot for stripping and tinning the enamel
>coated wire in toroids, so the 808 sits cooking in the holder for
>hours...When my 808 tips start to discolor and reject solder, I re-tin
>them with sal ammoniac and they are restored to as good as new...These
>tips are QUITE expensive and we don't want to have to be throwing them out
>when they are still useful...
>
>Soldering iron tips and de-soldering tips are usually iron plated copper,
>and they are factory tinned near the tip only...Sometimes the iron coating
>becomes discolored and will not tin anymore...Filing it will remove the
>iron plating and ruin the tip...This is where sal ammoniac can be
>used...If you are not careful, it will tin the ENTIRE tip, even the part
>that was not factory tinned...
>
>Jerry, wa2dkg
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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Steve, AA4K wrote:

I'd be very reluctant to use a soldering iron tip cleaned with sal ammoniac
on electronic equipment. For some manufacturers, it will void the warranty.

----------------------

Now that's an interesting thought. What possible harm does a common salt
(NH4)Cl do, especially if it's used as a cleaner that is long gone before
the iron ever approaches an electronic component, not as a soldering aid.

It's been a long time since I fiddled with that strange stuff, but Jerry
reminds me that it is an excellent de-oxidizer. One of its interesting
properties is that it is NEVER a liquid. It is either a solid or a gas,
depending upon the temperature. It's the gas boiling off of the solid
material when heated that provides the cleaning action.

I've never seen an electronics company that worried about irons that had
been cleaned with the stuff, Steve. Please fill us in!

Ron AC7AC


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[Andrey Stoev]

Hi Ron,

The sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride) which was widely used back in the days
to clean the soldering iron tips is very corrosive agent when heated.
Under hight temperature the ammonium chloride breaks down as NH4CL + heat
to NH3 (ammonia) and HCL (Hydrocloride, which when solved in water is known
as Murratic acid).
The HCL does the cleaning of the soldering iron tip and it  is an extremly
corrosive agent (not to mentioned what will do to your lungs - it turns into
murratic acid and can cause swelling, inflamation, etc). Just the vapours
and the particles on the soldering iron tip will cause corrosion to the
electronics if used during the soldering process.

Its OK to clean the iron every once in awhile but its very BAD idea to use
it as soldering aid (as flux). On other hand it is used as a component of
the flux in the plumbing.


73s
KB1FZA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 10:38 PM
Subject: Sal Ammoniac (WAS: [Elecraft] Hakko 808 tips)


Steve, AA4K wrote:

I'd be very reluctant to use a soldering iron tip cleaned with sal ammoniac
on electronic equipment. For some manufacturers, it will void the warranty.

----------------------

Now that's an interesting thought. What possible harm does a common salt
(NH4)Cl do, especially if it's used as a cleaner that is long gone before
the iron ever approaches an electronic component, not as a soldering aid.

It's been a long time since I fiddled with that strange stuff, but Jerry
reminds me that it is an excellent de-oxidizer. One of its interesting
properties is that it is NEVER a liquid. It is either a solid or a gas,
depending upon the temperature. It's the gas boiling off of the solid
material when heated that provides the cleaning action.

I've never seen an electronics company that worried about irons that had
been cleaned with the stuff, Steve. Please fill us in!

Ron AC7AC
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[Andrey Stoev]

Hey guys,

I am looking for a scan (JPG file would be perfect - 300 dpi will work the
best for me) on the front panel of the K2.

Any help will be apreicated

73s
KB1FZA
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[Stephen W. Kercel]

Ron:

Although it has been a very long time since I've built a Heathkit, I'm
pretty sure recalling that Heath had a disclaimer that both acid core
solder or a soldering iron cleaned with sal ammoniac would void their warranty.

It is enough of a concern that I would not use it on an Elecraft product
unless Elecraft says it is OK.

As for the harm it might do, I note that another poster has addressed that.

73,

Steve
AA4AK


At 07:38 PM 10/7/2005 -0700, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

>Steve, AA4K wrote:
>
>I'd be very reluctant to use a soldering iron tip cleaned with sal ammoniac
>on electronic equipment. For some manufacturers, it will void the warranty.
>
>----------------------
>
>Now that's an interesting thought. What possible harm does a common salt
>(NH4)Cl do, especially if it's used as a cleaner that is long gone before
>the iron ever approaches an electronic component, not as a soldering aid.
>
>It's been a long time since I fiddled with that strange stuff, but Jerry
>reminds me that it is an excellent de-oxidizer. One of its interesting
>properties is that it is NEVER a liquid. It is either a solid or a gas,
>depending upon the temperature. It's the gas boiling off of the solid
>material when heated that provides the cleaning action.
>
>I've never seen an electronics company that worried about irons that had
>been cleaned with the stuff, Steve. Please fill us in!
>
>Ron AC7AC
>
>
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[Bob Nielsen]

On Oct 7, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Steve, AA4K wrote:
>
> I'd be very reluctant to use a soldering iron tip cleaned with sal  
> ammoniac
> on electronic equipment. For some manufacturers, it will void the  
> warranty.
>
> ----------------------
>
> Now that's an interesting thought. What possible harm does a common  
> salt
> (NH4)Cl do, especially if it's used as a cleaner that is long gone  
> before
> the iron ever approaches an electronic component, not as a  
> soldering aid.
>
> It's been a long time since I fiddled with that strange stuff, but  
> Jerry
> reminds me that it is an excellent de-oxidizer. One of its interesting
> properties is that it is NEVER a liquid. It is either a solid or a  
> gas,
> depending upon the temperature. It's the gas boiling off of the solid
> material when heated that provides the cleaning action.

How sublime (sorry, I couldn't resist).

Bob, N7XY


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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Steve, AA4AK wrote:
Although it has been a very long time since I've built a Heathkit, I'm
pretty sure recalling that Heath had a disclaimer that both acid core
solder or a soldering iron cleaned with sal ammoniac would void their
warranty.

It is enough of a concern that I would not use it on an Elecraft product
unless Elecraft says it is OK.

As for the harm it might do, I note that another poster has addressed that.

----------------------------------

Thanks, Steve. I agree with your concerns. Elecraft makes specific solder
recommendations, and any deviation from those recommendations should only be
done with full knowledge of why certain solders are recommended.

I wasn't asking about the fumes! That's obvious. Indeed, rosin fumes should
not be inhaled either, and as long as we're using solder with lead in it,
ALWAYS wash your hands after handling it before picking up food! And wash
them anyway because lead migrates through the skin.

But the idea of a gas being able to contaminate a surface so that it's not
safe to use for soldering later, long after the gas has dissipated - that's
what I found odd. Normally the process of cleaning and tinning an iron does
not leave any trace of the cleaning agent on the tip after it's done, even
if liquids or pastes are used. Indeed, the whole idea is that all that
remains on the tip is a thin coat of solder.

There are Sal Ammoniac based fluxes that are used in plumbing, and as others
pointed out they must NEVER be used for electronic soldering because the
flux stays active at room temperature!

The beauty of rosin is that it is totally inert at room temperature. Indeed,
it's inert until it gets nearly hot enough to melt solder. So the rosin
cannot hurt anything (except the aesthetic sensibilities of those who hate
to see a little rosin residue) unless the circuit gets hot enough to melt
the solder. In that case, I suspect other component failures will exceed any
damage the hot rosin could ever do <G>

Along that same line, there are some new fluxes sold specifically for
electronic use that are advertised at "no clean" that are also very
dangerous. These fluxes, like acid fluxes used by plumbers and the like,
remain active at room temperature. They are sold for use in mass production
where the boards are thoroughly washed after soldering to remove the
remaining flux immediately. Most of these fluxes are water-soluble so the
washing doesn't involve dangerous chemicals, but it's absolutely critical
that be done, and done thoroughly and properly. If not, the joints will be
eaten through by the flux after a few months, destroying the entire circuit
board. The message is that not all 'electronic' solders are safe to use on
the bench.

Personally, I stick with the lead/tin rosin-core solder, and I've got
equipment that I built half a century ago that still functions just fine. I
might make the transition, with care, to lead-free solder one day if leaded
solder becomes hard to find in the USA. We'll see <G>.

Ron AC7AC

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[Ingo Meyer DK3RED]

Hello Andrey,

 > I am looking for a scan (JPG file would be perfect - 300 dpi will work
 > the best for me) on the front panel of the K2.

www.elecraft.com
   -> (left menu)
     ->  Manuals & Downloads
       -> K2 High Resolution Drawing

or direct

www.elecraft.com/images/k2%20drawing%20x2.jpg
--
72/73 de Ingo, DK3RED   Don't forget: the fun is the power!

    [hidden email]   www.dk3red.homepage.t-online.de
      DL-QRP-AG   #824   www.dl-qrp-ag.de
       QRP ARCI #11295   www.qrparci.org
         DARC #2360404   www.darc.de

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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Ingo already provided the answer if you were looking for the front panel
layout and artwork, but if what you meant was the FP board itself, you can
find scans of most all the Elecraft boards at Tom Hammond's website
(www.n0ss.net).

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----

> I am looking for a scan (JPG file would be perfect - 300 dpi will
> work the
> best for me) on the front panel of the K2.
>
> Any help will be apreicated
>
> 73s
> KB1FZA
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005

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[Andrey Stoev]

Hi guys,

I am sorry for not beeing very specific - I need a scan of the actual
faceplate - the image on elecraft.com is a drawing. I am looking for a
scanned image of the faceplate - not the front panel PCB, should someone has
it handy or has an unassembled kit and he is willing to scan the faceplate
for me!

Thanks in advance!!!

73s
KB1FZA

----- Original Message -----
From: "W3FPR - Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: "Andrey Stoev" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Need K2 Front panel scan

> Ingo already provided the answer if you were looking for the front panel
> layout and artwork, but if what you meant was the FP board itself, you can
> find scans of most all the Elecraft boards at Tom Hammond's website
> (www.n0ss.net).
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> I am looking for a scan (JPG file would be perfect - 300 dpi will
>> work the
>> best for me) on the front panel of the K2.
>>
>> Any help will be apreicated
>>
>> 73s
>> KB1FZA
>>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005
>

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[JEAN-FRANCOIS MENARD-3]

like this one...

http://homepage.mac.com/jfmenard/.Pictures/K2/k2-05.jpg

Le 05-10-08 à 09:19, Andrey Stoev a écrit :

> Hi guys,
>
> I am sorry for not beeing very specific - I need a scan of the  
> actual faceplate - the image on elecraft.com is a drawing. I am  
> looking for a scanned image of the faceplate - not the front panel  
> PCB, should someone has it handy or has an unassembled kit and he  
> is willing to scan the faceplate for me!
>
> Thanks in advance!!!
>
> 73s
> KB1FZA
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "W3FPR - Don Wilhelm"  
> <[hidden email]>
> To: "Andrey Stoev" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 8:06 AM
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Need K2 Front panel scan
>
>
>
>> Ingo already provided the answer if you were looking for the front  
>> panel
>> layout and artwork, but if what you meant was the FP board itself,  
>> you can
>> find scans of most all the Elecraft boards at Tom Hammond's website
>> (www.n0ss.net).
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>
>>
>>> I am looking for a scan (JPG file would be perfect - 300 dpi will
>>> work the
>>> best for me) on the front panel of the K2.
>>>
>>> Any help will be apreicated
>>>
>>> 73s
>>> KB1FZA
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date:  
>> 10/6/2005
>>
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>

=============================================
/¯\/¯\/¯\/¯\/¯\/¯\   JEAN-FRANCOIS MENARD
  V  A  2  V  Y  Z       [hidden email]
\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/

Elecraft K2 #4130
Elecraft KX1 #999

http://homepage.mac.com/jfmenard
=============================================


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[WØIFL]

How about Kester's NO CLEAN ?  I used that to build my entire K2 as well as
several other kits and 'projects' .  The only drawback I noticed is that
removing something after it is soldered in place requires a little extra
care and time.  My solder joints still appear fine after a couple of years
anyway.  I hope not to wake up one day to find them all eaten through!   I
didn't do any extra cleaning steps after soldering, that's WHY I bought the
NO CLEAN.

RonE.

====
Along that same line, there are some new fluxes sold specifically for
electronic use that are advertised at "no clean" that are also very
dangerous. These fluxes, like acid fluxes used by plumbers and the like,
remain active at room temperature. They are sold for use in mass production
where the boards are thoroughly washed after soldering to remove the
remaining flux immediately. Most of these fluxes are water-soluble so the
washing doesn't involve dangerous chemicals, but it's absolutely critical
that be done, and done thoroughly and properly. If not, the joints will be
eaten through by the flux after a few months, destroying the entire circuit
board. The message is that not all 'electronic' solders are safe to use on
the bench.
====
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[Tom Hammond-3]

Hi Ron:

Kester no-clean is just fine! It's only "No-Clean' because it uses only
1/1% flux, compared to the 2.2% and 3.3% flus in most 'regular' flux-cored
solders. It's 'no-clean' because it leaves minimal residue.

73,

Tom   N0SS

At 09:03 AM 10/8/2005, you wrote:

>How about Kester's NO CLEAN ?  I used that to build my entire K2 as well as
>several other kits and 'projects' .  The only drawback I noticed is that
>removing something after it is soldered in place requires a little extra
>care and time.  My solder joints still appear fine after a couple of years
>anyway.  I hope not to wake up one day to find them all eaten through!   I
>didn't do any extra cleaning steps after soldering, that's WHY I bought the
>NO CLEAN.
>
>RonE.
>
>====
>Along that same line, there are some new fluxes sold specifically for
>electronic use that are advertised at "no clean" that are also very
>dangerous. These fluxes, like acid fluxes used by plumbers and the like,
>remain active at room temperature. They are sold for use in mass production
>where the boards are thoroughly washed after soldering to remove the
>remaining flux immediately. Most of these fluxes are water-soluble so the
>washing doesn't involve dangerous chemicals, but it's absolutely critical
>that be done, and done thoroughly and properly. If not, the joints will be
>eaten through by the flux after a few months, destroying the entire circuit
>board. The message is that not all 'electronic' solders are safe to use on
>the bench.
>====
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

RonE asked:
How about Kester's NO CLEAN ?  I used that to build my entire K2 as well as
several other kits and 'projects' .  The only drawback I noticed is that
removing something after it is soldered in place requires a little extra
care and time.  My solder joints still appear fine after a couple of years
anyway.  I hope not to wake up one day to find them all eaten through!   I
didn't do any extra cleaning steps after soldering, that's WHY I bought the
NO CLEAN

----------------------------

If you're talking about Kester 275 'No Clean', you should be fine. But you
bring up an excellent point about trying new products: Check the
manufacturer's data sheet! About the 275, Kester says:

"The 275 residues are non-conductive, non-corrosive and do not require
removal in most applications. The
flux residues are comparable to a conventional RMA except that the 275
residue is clear and colorless."

The data sheet is available on-line at: http://tinyurl.com/7o35n .

Compare that statement with their 331 "water soluble" flux:

"The 331 flux residue is conductive and may cause corrosion of metal parts
over time."

I believe that's where some have stumbled - thinking that "water soluble"
would be better than rosin-based fluxes. The world of electronics has
changed. How we solder at our benches is not how most soldering is done
these days. Various machine techniques are used that solder boards more
quickly and reliably, but they do it differently. For example, machine
soldering is often followed by a very effective and complete machine washing
of the board. In that environment, solders can be used that are absolutely
deadly to circuits if used for soldering at the bench without access to
proper cleaning facilities.

The Kester web site has full info on all of their products at
http://www.kester.com. It's important to note where they expect each product
to be used, especially if one reads the short marketing blurbs instead of
the data sheet.

Ron AC7AC

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