Happy But Very Sad
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Wayne:
Excellent point that is the main reason that I chose my Elecraft portability and 12v operation and a replacement for my QRP rig an IC-703 Plus In addition to in the shack with my microHAM microKEYER for running JT65HF. I do use Class A mode with my 5000 to drive a Yaesu VL-1000 amp 1kw 6-160m with 45w of drive. The 5000 is not a plug and play radio it has a learning curve and one of the first is the audio setup which takes time and differs with mic's and your voice using the 3 band eq. There are many who never quite learn to do this correctly. 73, Fred/N0AZZ -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 5:42 PM To: Adrian Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Happy But Very Sad Adrian wrote: > K3 a superior transmitter in imd product results?.... Adrian, The K3 is a 12-volt-powered transceiver. When running at 100 W and from a typical DC supply, its transmit 3rd-order IMD is very similar to that of other 12-V radios, as confirmed by multiple test labs. A transceiver with a class-A final or running from much higher supply voltages (15 V is OK, as you mentioned) will have better IMD. But radios with built-in supplies are not suited for portability -- a major design goal of the K3, which is used by more DXpeditions than any other rig. Also, I suspect most "splatter" comments derive from improper adjustment of the K3 when used with an external amplifier. Some amplifier manufacturers still insist on instructing users to crank up their radio's power output to maximum when driving the amp, forcing the use of wideband ALC at the radio, and that can indeed result in splatter. But if you adjust the K3's power output as described in the owner's manual (with no more drive than required for full amp power), and do not depend on aggressive ALC action, its signal will be very clean. This allows all of the K3's fast ALC to be achieved *ahead* of the crystal filter, avoiding the wideband ALC splatter characteristic of transceivers designed for "crank-it-all-the- way-up" mode. Also note that the K3 typically runs at 20-50 W when driving the KPA500 or other amp with similar gain, resulting in excellent third- order IMD. If anyone had a K3 exhibiting IMD worse than specified, we would certainly repair it at no charge. 73, Wayne N6KR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2437/5087 - Release Date: 06/22/12 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Despite the 120w reference, the poster refers to power levels at 100w
and lower in both his comparisons. My experience was exactly the same. My post was refering to the 5000 - K3 comparison. On 22/06/2012 22:51, Wayne Burdick wrote: > That's a pretty old posting, Adrian. We long ago restricted max power > to 110 W in firmware, and the radio is specified at 100 W. Using the > recommended supply voltage (14 V) at the recommended power level (100 > W) there should be no difference between the K3 and other nominal-12 V > transceivers. > > Note that the difference between 110 and 100 W is only 0.4 dB, so I > suggest sticking with 100 W. > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > > On Jun 22, 2012, at 3:12 PM, Adrian wrote: > >> Also see >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg70785.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Paul VanOveren-2
On 22/06/2012 23:47, Paul VanOveren wrote: > You read one bad review on Eham and make that kind of statement. Who said I read one review?That wasnt a review, it was a comment. I read hundreds of comments and have heard many on-air reports, and have gone through the process myself that the usual k3 setup IMD3 results around the -26 to -27 dB mark at 13.8v in with standard supplied power cable. > ." .Out in the real world the K3 has a bad rep for splatter and imd3 > pro" I have K3 # 758, now over 4 yrs old, and have run it at 100 > watts (as recommended) barefoot, into a Alpha 76 PA @ 50 watts and now > into a Elecraft KPA 500 with 25-30 watts. After more than 5500 qsos > over the 4 yrs, ragchewing, chasing dx and contesting, I have had the > following numbers of bad audio, splattering or key clicks reports, 0 > , zero, nata, none, zlich. Thats what I would expect, so what? The 100w numbers needed to get better, and do with 15v in with a custom heavy cable. We did that, not because it was good fun, but from necessity. > IMHO, to make a statement like that (without any documentation) > is reckless and unwarranted. I have heard many reports from owners and > others, about the FT5000 re: key clicks, splattering, etc, but > certainly would not go on the Yeasu reflector and spread such stuff > around. I documented it for you here. You try to compare your Alpha 76 low drive level situation to those driving 3-500z pairs @ 100w ? It's a different deal. The guys out there should try googling a bit and check out the amplifier forums. I stand by what I said, and said it to provide help to the K3 owners out there that like to improve their imd3. From someone that has first hand gone through the process. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Administrator
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Gentlemen,
Please take personal attacks and heated arguments off list. Its Ok to discuss technical features, specs, test data etc, but please keep it civil. If this thread degenerates further I will be forced to close it. 73, Eric Elecraft List Moderator www.elecraft.com _..._ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by vk4tux
Where is the data to back up what was said on eham. It was one guy!
Mike W0MU W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net:23 or w0mu-1.dnsdynamic.com Http://www.w0mu.com On 6/22/2012 3:48 PM, Adrian wrote: > K3 a superior transmitter in imd product results? Your kidding right? > Out in the real world the K3 has a bad rep for splatter and imd3 product. > See; > > http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,75182.0.html > > Those of us with K3's running 15v PS with heavy cable inputs, driving clean > amps escape the wrath of the imd police. > The 5000 is way better esp in class A operation. > > > >> A fully-loaded K3 is about $4900, and that assumes 8 pole filters in all > slots in both receivers. A fully loaded FT-5000 is $5600. The FT-5000 > exceeds the K3's >receiver performance in one category, and trails the K3 in > every other RX performance category. The K3 also has a superior transmitter, > as evidenced by the >IMD numbers in ARRL test results and elsewhere. > >> 73, >> Scott, N9AA > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Robert Vargas (KP4Y)
I am very fortunate in that I have both a K3 and an FT 5000 MP. Both radios
have their strong points and some weak points. But frankly I have never had a report of either splatter or key clicks from the K3. I run it with an amplifier at which time the K3 output is around 20 to 30 W. When I use it barefoot at 100 W it also seems very clean with no adverse reports. The FT 5000 certainly has a fine main receiver but the secondary receiver is not as good since it does not use the front end roofing filters. That is in contrast to the K3 whose secondary receiver is identical in performance to the main receiver. As for as I know, that is the only radio that offers that feature. Also, the K3 weighs only about 8 pounds as contrasted with 55 pounds for the FT 5000. Obviously, I will not be doing much traveling with the FT 5000. Someone mentioned what they perceived as inferior feel to the vfo on the K3. Again I must dispute that. It feels quite adequate to me. The FT 5000 vfo is very smooth but is also much more complex in its construction. It is also much easier to change the tuning rate on the K3 as compared to the FT 5000 where one must go into the menu system to do that. The K3 requires only a push of a button or two. I really think it is pointless to endlessly argue the finer points of either radio. They will appeal to different folks for different purposes. I think we are very fortunate to have them both available. Of course, Elecraft wins hands down for customer support. No one does that better than Elecraft. Bruce-W8FU -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Vargas Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 7:14 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Happy But Very Sad Love my K3 as I know I will love my KX3 on order and I love Elecraft customer support and the fact that the owners stand behind their products and are real gentlemen. However, if I had $5K to spend and the difference between a fully loaded K3 and the FT-5000 was around $500-$700, I would blindly go with the FT-5000. The specs are close for me and I have operated the FT-5000 and believe that it also has a great receiver. The difference I believe lies in the construction/workmanship of both radios and I'm reminded about that every time I turn the K3 VFO. I believe that the KX3 pricing is more inline with what you are getting but the K3 is IMHO slightly overpriced for a kit. But, I then have to realize that someone has to pay for the magnificent intellectual work that Wayne and Eric have done in the development of the K3's firmware, and that is worth the money. I really look forward to better construction/workmanship for the K4... Robert, KP4Y ________________________________ From: Scott Manthe <[hidden email]> To: [hidden email] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Happy But Very Sad I said the K3's transmitter was superior to the FT-5000, not perfect. The ARRL review lists the 3rd order TX IMD numbers at -30db for the 5000 and -29 dB for the K3, but those numbers alone don't tell the whole story. Take at look at the ARRL's phase noise numbers and spectral display characteristics for the FT-5000's transmitted signal and compare them to the K3 and then get back to us. To be fair, the K3 tested does seem to have an issue with inferior 9th order IMD numbers, though. These figures were without the FT-5000's processor turned on, which of course, dirties up the 5000's signal quite a bit, unless that "feature" has been fixed. If it has, many contesters will be tearing up, because that and the key clicks help FT5000 ops get higher scores. Re: your other post, my K3 is rated at 100 watts output, so I'm sure someone running one at 120 watts will notice that the performance does degrade. I find the slightly higher PS voltage an intriguing idea. The FT-5000 is a fine rig, and is fairly clean in class A mode, with the processor turned off, but most people don't run them that way. 73, Scott, N9AA On 6/22/12 5:48 PM, Adrian wrote: > K3 a superior transmitter in imd product results? Your kidding right? > Out in the real world the K3 has a bad rep for splatter and imd3 product. > See; > > http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,75182.0.html > > Those of us with K3's running 15v PS with heavy cable inputs, driving > clean amps escape the wrath of the imd police. > The 5000 is way better esp in class A operation. > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by w0mu
On 6/23/2012 9:29 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
> Where is the data to back up what was said on eham. It was one guy! Roger that. We had a cheapie wireless router that might make it across the room on a good day. I asked on the NCCC list for recommendations for one that might cover the house, or at least the first floor. Several folks, all of whose info and opinion I respect, recommended a particular brand which I'll leave out since it isn't relevant. Reading the reviews on Amazon, there seemed to be two opposite poles. About 2/3 of the reviewers [there were 35-40 reviews total] gave it at least 4 stars, a number gave it 5, and had glowing words about how easy it was to set up, took them just a couple of minutes, and they can hear it on the moon. The other 1/3 gave it one star [or none], said it incredibly hard to set up, the control software was a disaster, they had to learn all about IP-tables, and the signal didn't make it out of the house. Trusting my friends, I purchased it. Don't know about the moon, but it covers the house, Andrea can now download books onto her Kindle in the living room at the speed of light. I walked around outside some with my smartypants fone and I get moderately good signals maybe 100-150' from the house. It took me longer to unpack it than it did to get it working, the software worked just fine, there were no IP tables [whatever they are], and everything wireless in the house, including the DirecTV HD DVR is happily connected. For all I know, the microwave might be too. :-) Had a similar experience on eHam with a GAP antenna. I finally bought it. Everything was/is just fine, it works great, and now I just need the KAT500 and I can have all my coax connected at the same time. So far as I can tell, all these reviews are just data. No information, just words and you never know the circumstances surrounding them. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Reviews [was Happy But Very Sad ... which never made sense to me]
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Suffice it to say, Fred, I am convinced there are people out there who
can break an anvil with a rubber mallet! OTOH, on sites like Amazon or other reviews I do wonder how much is astroturfing from competitors. I would hope that sort of thing is non-existent on eHam and related sites. Still, every manufacturer drops a lemon now and then and to the recipient, a sour taste lingers long particularly if the problem is not resolved. Excellent customer service goes far to overcome that, yet my experience with two Elecraft products and three orders is that they've done it right the first time for me. 73, de Nate, N0NB >> -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
One of the members of the Zuni Loop QRP Field Day has brought his K3
for the past two years that I recall. Count was three K2s, one K3, one KX3, an Argonaut V and my K2 that I brought as backup. In the past I would have worried about bringing a personal transceiver worth that much to any location outside of the house, but now I'm thinking otherwise, inasmuch as many DXpeditions feature K3s. Power for this QRP K3 was a 100-Ah battery that took two guys to carry to the 20m tent. 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW On 6/22/2012 10:48 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: > Another nice thing about the K3 is that you can take it to Field Day. > (10 pounds vs. 50 pounds, and 1 amp receive current drain vs. 3 or 4 > amps :) > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill K9YEQ
Not to mention that the footprint is considerably smaller on the K3 -- a serious blessing on cramped folding tables of Field Day.
In fact the small footprint sealed the deal for me on my K3. My whole house is only 720 square feet and every square inch of desk space is precious in my shack. Those leviathan rigs are impressive but something else would have to go. For its size and weight (and base price), the K3 is truly miraculous. 73 de Eric, KG6MZS On Jun 22, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote: > Exactly... or take the KX3, even lighter... or take both and share :-) > > 73, > Bill > K9YEQ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 12:49 PM > To: Scott Manthe > Cc: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Happy But Very Sad > > Another nice thing about the K3 is that you can take it to Field Day. > (10 pounds vs. 50 pounds, and 1 amp receive current drain vs. 3 or 4 amps :) > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Mike Bellow
My experience is that my K2 and K1 both hear better on CW than my TS2000.
Enjoy the K2. I have one I purchased used, but am getting the itch to build my own! 73 Joe |
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