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High Accuracy TCXO

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Brett Howard

High Accuracy TCXO

Does the higher accuracy TCXO result in lower phase noise? If so in dB
how much lower would one expect out of a delta in 4 ppm and 4.5 ppm.
This is assuming the 4ppm which one will get with out implementation of
firmware correction and 4.5 ppm delta which one will obtain once this
feature is implemented in firmware.

~Brett (KC7OTG)
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Julian, G4ILO

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

Brett Howard wrote

Does the higher accuracy TCXO result in lower phase noise? If so in dB
how much lower would one expect out of a delta in 4 ppm and 4.5 ppm.
This is assuming the 4ppm which one will get with out implementation of
firmware correction and 4.5 ppm delta which one will obtain once this
feature is implemented in firmware.

I don't see why it should. The only benefit of it is greater frequency stability over a *long* period of time and with changing temperature.

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

S Sacco

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

Brett -

I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your question: Elecraft still
isn't shipping firmware to support the 1ppm TCXO...although they ARE
happily taking our money for the units. (I have one installed).

73,
Steve NN4X

On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Does the higher accuracy TCXO result in lower phase noise? If so in dB
> how much lower would one expect out of a delta in 4 ppm and 4.5 ppm.
> This is assuming the 4ppm which one will get with out implementation of
> firmware correction and 4.5 ppm delta which one will obtain once this
> feature is implemented in firmware.
>
> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

S Sacco

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

The setup for the 1 ppm TCXO is not enabled; I'm not sure what that
means vis-a-vis the stability. I've only had my K3 for a short time,
and haven't attempted to monitor the stability.

Bottom line: a product is being actively advertised and sold, but the
buyer is not told that they will not be able to use it as advertised.

Glad you're seeing excellent stability. Perhaps I'll play with that,
and montor WWV over an evening....

Thanks/73!

Steve NN4X

On 3/4/08, Ken Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Unless I misunderstand what is published, the firmware for the 1 ppm TCXO is
> only to allow it to be tightened up to 0.5 ppm, and does not affect the
> basic 1 ppm TCXO. I have the 1 ppm TCXO and even though I haven't done any
> scientific calibrations, I'd say it has a 1 ppm capability... or pretty darn
> close to that.
>
> 73,
> Ken K3IU
>
>
> S Sacco wrote:
> Brett -

I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your question: Elecraft
> still
isn't shipping firmware to support the 1ppm TCXO...although they
> ARE
happily taking our money for the units. (I have one
> installed).

73,
Steve NN4X

On 3/4/08, Brett Howard
> <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Does the higher accuracy TCXO result in lower phase noise? If so in dB
how
> much lower would one expect out of a delta in 4 ppm and 4.5 ppm.
This is
> assuming the 4ppm which one will get with out implementation of
firmware
> correction and 4.5 ppm delta which one will obtain once this
feature is
> implemented in firmware.

~Brett
> (KC7OTG)
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> mailing list
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> post to the list.
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>
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Ken Wagner K3IU

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

Sorry you feel that way, Steve.

The K3TCXO-1 that came with my K3 has a calibration/test sheet that
clearly indicates that it is accurate to within 1 ppm. This has nothing
to do with firmware. The setup procedure in the manual that is currently
not usable is the procedure that will make the TCXO-1 accurate to within
0.5 ppm by use of firmware. Of course, I could be 100% wrong, but I
don't think so.

From the K3 Order page...

"KTCXO3-1 TCXO +/-1ppm (f/w corr. to 0.5ppm)"

73,
Ken K3IU

S Sacco wrote:

> The setup for the 1 ppm TCXO is not enabled; I'm not sure what that
> means vis-a-vis the stability. I've only had my K3 for a short time,
> and haven't attempted to monitor the stability.
>
> Bottom line: a product is being actively advertised and sold, but the
> buyer is not told that they will not be able to use it as advertised.
>
> Glad you're seeing excellent stability. Perhaps I'll play with that,
> and montor WWV over an evening....
>
> Thanks/73!
>
> Steve NN4X
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/4/08, Ken Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Unless I misunderstand what is published, the firmware for the 1 ppm TCXO is
>> only to allow it to be tightened up to 0.5 ppm, and does not affect the
>> basic 1 ppm TCXO. I have the 1 ppm TCXO and even though I haven't done any
>> scientific calibrations, I'd say it has a 1 ppm capability... or pretty darn
>> close to that.
>>
>> 73,
>> Ken K3IU
>>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

Administrator

In reply to this post by S Sacco

The 1 PPM TCXO does give you 1 PPM accuracy over temperature. (Versus
the 5 PPM standard TCXO.) In fact, its a bit better than that over the
commercial temp range. Nothing has to be enabled by the user. Its just
more temperature stable than the 5 PPM part.

We have plans to add firmware correction to get it to 0.5 ppm, or
better, by using the internal temperature sensor on the front panel to
do piecewise corrections to the oscillator over temp. That will be
finished after Wayne gets the 2nd RX out the door. :-)

73, Eric WA6HHQ

_..._

S Sacco wrote:
> The setup for the 1 ppm TCXO is not enabled; I'm not sure what that
> means vis-a-vis the stability. I've only had my K3 for a short time,
> and haven't attempted to monitor the stability.
>
>
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S Sacco

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

In reply to this post by Ken Wagner K3IU

Hi Ken -

I saw that sheet, too.

I understand what you're saying about the firmware being to enhance
the accuracy to the .5 ppm, and I'm sure you're correct about that.

My statement about Elecraft wasn't my "feeling"; it was a reporting of
fact. My "feeling" is that they're not being as honest as they
should, but that's just me; others have higher tolerance for such
behavior.

As I type this, I see that Eric chimed in, with an update on the
firmware status for this - thank you, Eric.

I ordered a 2nd K3 last week (pre price increase - yippee!), but
without the 1ppm TCXO. I'll be interested to see if I even notice the
difference.

For now, I'll be enjoying my K3.

Thanks/73!

Steve NN4X

On 3/4/08, Ken Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry you feel that way, Steve.
>
> The K3TCXO-1 that came with my K3 has a calibration/test sheet that
> clearly indicates that it is accurate to within 1 ppm. This has nothing
> to do with firmware. The setup procedure in the manual that is currently
> not usable is the procedure that will make the TCXO-1 accurate to within
> 0.5 ppm by use of firmware. Of course, I could be 100% wrong, but I
> don't think so.
>
> From the K3 Order page...
>
> "KTCXO3-1 TCXO +/-1ppm (f/w corr. to 0.5ppm)"
>
> 73,
> Ken K3IU
>
> S Sacco wrote:
> > The setup for the 1 ppm TCXO is not enabled; I'm not sure what that
> > means vis-a-vis the stability. I've only had my K3 for a short time,
> > and haven't attempted to monitor the stability.
> >
> > Bottom line: a product is being actively advertised and sold, but the
> > buyer is not told that they will not be able to use it as advertised.
> >
> > Glad you're seeing excellent stability. Perhaps I'll play with that,
> > and montor WWV over an evening....
> >
> > Thanks/73!
> >
> > Steve NN4X
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/4/08, Ken Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Unless I misunderstand what is published, the firmware for the 1 ppm TCXO is
> >> only to allow it to be tightened up to 0.5 ppm, and does not affect the
> >> basic 1 ppm TCXO. I have the 1 ppm TCXO and even though I haven't done any
> >> scientific calibrations, I'd say it has a 1 ppm capability... or pretty darn
> >> close to that.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Ken K3IU
> >>
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

Administrator

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

The 1 PPM and 5 PPM oscillators should have about the same phase noise,
which is very good. They also are not the limiting factor for phase
noise in the radio.

73, Eric

Brett Howard wrote:

Brett Howard

RE: High Accuracy TCXO

In reply to this post by S Sacco

You do still get a 4ppm improvement so why wouldn't they take money for the
units? Granted the software is supposed to help make a small extra
improvement but I don't see any reason why this would prevent them from
selling the higher accuracy TCXO. Not sure why I think it may have been
this list but I knew that that wasn't implemented yet. Maybe it was a
manual errata or something.

-----Original Message-----
From: S Sacco [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:31 AM
To: Brett Howard
Cc: Elecraft Users
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] High Accuracy TCXO

Brett -

I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your question: Elecraft still
isn't shipping firmware to support the 1ppm TCXO...although they ARE
happily taking our money for the units. (I have one installed).

73,
Steve NN4X

On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

S Sacco

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

Hi Brett -

Simply because they're advertising it with that capability (.5 ppm),
and generally figure that if something's being represented and sold
with certain capabilities, it should have same, and if it doesn't, it
should be disclosed at time of sale.

It's been a long time, but I'll guess that I imagined, back last June,
that it would be available by the time I took delivery.

Thanks & 73,

Steve NN4X

On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You do still get a 4ppm improvement so why wouldn't they take money for the
> units? Granted the software is supposed to help make a small extra
> improvement but I don't see any reason why this would prevent them from
> selling the higher accuracy TCXO. Not sure why I think it may have been
> this list but I knew that that wasn't implemented yet. Maybe it was a
> manual errata or something.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S Sacco [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:31 AM
> To: Brett Howard
> Cc: Elecraft Users
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] High Accuracy TCXO
>
> Brett -
>
> I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your question: Elecraft still
> isn't shipping firmware to support the 1ppm TCXO...although they ARE
> happily taking our money for the units. (I have one installed).
>
> 73,
> Steve NN4X
>
>
> On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Does the higher accuracy TCXO result in lower phase noise? If so in dB
> > how much lower would one expect out of a delta in 4 ppm and 4.5 ppm.
> > This is assuming the 4ppm which one will get with out implementation of
> > firmware correction and 4.5 ppm delta which one will obtain once this
> > feature is implemented in firmware.
> >
> > ~Brett (KC7OTG)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >
>
>

Thom LaCosta

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008, S Sacco wrote:

> Simply because they're advertising it with that capability (.5 ppm),
> and generally figure that if something's being represented and sold
> with certain capabilities, it should have same, and if it doesn't, it
> should be disclosed at time of sale.

Oh Ye of Little Faith.

73 k3hrn
Thom,EIEIO
Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer

www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon
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Brett Howard

RE: High Accuracy TCXO

In reply to this post by S Sacco

I don't remember how or why but I knew that it wasn't done before you'd
mentioned being upset about it. I wish I knew where it was that I'd learned
that but to me it was made very clear that this capability wasn't there yet.
Have you noted a difference between the 1ppm you have and the 0.5ppm that
they haven't released yet?

I'd hope that you realized that there were still some options that weren't
fully ready yet and that they were going to be coming in the near future.
This is a small piece of the pie and I'm willing to bet its something that
you don't even notice and probably don't even have the equipment (or at the
very least time) to test it. I think I'd just not fret the numbers and just
enjoy the hobby... I understand being upset that the feature isn't there
instantly but it's a pretty minor deal considering the cost that you paid
for the best receiver in the market right now isn't it?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of S Sacco
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:37 AM
To: Elecraft Users
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] High Accuracy TCXO

Hi Brett -

Simply because they're advertising it with that capability (.5 ppm),
and generally figure that if something's being represented and sold
with certain capabilities, it should have same, and if it doesn't, it
should be disclosed at time of sale.

It's been a long time, but I'll guess that I imagined, back last June,
that it would be available by the time I took delivery.

Thanks & 73,

Steve NN4X

On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You do still get a 4ppm improvement so why wouldn't they take money for
the

> units? Granted the software is supposed to help make a small extra
> improvement but I don't see any reason why this would prevent them from
> selling the higher accuracy TCXO. Not sure why I think it may have been
> this list but I knew that that wasn't implemented yet. Maybe it was a
> manual errata or something.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S Sacco [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:31 AM
> To: Brett Howard
> Cc: Elecraft Users
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] High Accuracy TCXO
>
> Brett -
>
> I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your question: Elecraft still
> isn't shipping firmware to support the 1ppm TCXO...although they ARE
> happily taking our money for the units. (I have one installed).
>
> 73,
> Steve NN4X
>
>
> On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Does the higher accuracy TCXO result in lower phase noise? If so in dB
> > how much lower would one expect out of a delta in 4 ppm and 4.5 ppm.
> > This is assuming the 4ppm which one will get with out implementation of
> > firmware correction and 4.5 ppm delta which one will obtain once this
> > feature is implemented in firmware.
> >
> > ~Brett (KC7OTG)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >
>
>

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S Sacco

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

Hi Brett -

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I PAID for .5 ppm
capability, and it's not available to me. Further, Elecraft continues
to advertise and sell it, but makes no effort to disclose that you
won't be getting everything you paid for.

It should be painfully obvious that there are two issues here - one is
that the firmware isn't available, and, the other the way Elecraft
choses to handle that problem.

I find their approach to be very disrespectful of their customers, and
it's apparently SOP for them.

Let's end this here, okay? I think we've both stated our opinions
very well, and obviously each of us is steadfast in our position.

73,
Steve NN4X

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't remember how or why but I knew that it wasn't done before you'd
> mentioned being upset about it. I wish I knew where it was that I'd learned
> that but to me it was made very clear that this capability wasn't there yet.
> Have you noted a difference between the 1ppm you have and the 0.5ppm that
> they haven't released yet?
>
> I'd hope that you realized that there were still some options that weren't
> fully ready yet and that they were going to be coming in the near future.
> This is a small piece of the pie and I'm willing to bet its something that
> you don't even notice and probably don't even have the equipment (or at the
> very least time) to test it. I think I'd just not fret the numbers and just
> enjoy the hobby... I understand being upset that the feature isn't there
> instantly but it's a pretty minor deal considering the cost that you paid
> for the best receiver in the market right now isn't it?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of S Sacco
>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:37 AM
> To: Elecraft Users
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] High Accuracy TCXO
>
> Hi Brett -
>
> Simply because they're advertising it with that capability (.5 ppm),
> and generally figure that if something's being represented and sold
> with certain capabilities, it should have same, and if it doesn't, it
> should be disclosed at time of sale.
>
> It's been a long time, but I'll guess that I imagined, back last June,
> that it would be available by the time I took delivery.
>
> Thanks & 73,
>
> Steve NN4X
>
>
>
> On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > You do still get a 4ppm improvement so why wouldn't they take money for
> the
> > units? Granted the software is supposed to help make a small extra
> > improvement but I don't see any reason why this would prevent them from
> > selling the higher accuracy TCXO. Not sure why I think it may have been
> > this list but I knew that that wasn't implemented yet. Maybe it was a
> > manual errata or something.
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: S Sacco [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:31 AM
> > To: Brett Howard
> > Cc: Elecraft Users
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] High Accuracy TCXO
> >
>
>
> > Brett -
> >
> > I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your question: Elecraft still
> > isn't shipping firmware to support the 1ppm TCXO...although they ARE
> > happily taking our money for the units. (I have one installed).
> >
> > 73,
> > Steve NN4X
> >
> >
> > On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Does the higher accuracy TCXO result in lower phase noise? If so in dB
> > > how much lower would one expect out of a delta in 4 ppm and 4.5 ppm.
> > > This is assuming the 4ppm which one will get with out implementation of
> > > firmware correction and 4.5 ppm delta which one will obtain once this
> > > feature is implemented in firmware.
> > >
> > > ~Brett (KC7OTG)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Elecraft mailing list
> > > Post to: [hidden email]
> > > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > >
> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> > >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>

M0XDF

Re: High Accuracy TCXO

Sorry to continue this thread (1 and only post on this), but ....

I don't remember it being described as 0.5ppm - only as 1ppm - it's on the
order page as +/- 1ppm.

OK, so there may have been a mail saying with firmware Elecraft might be
able to better that (I can't be bothered to search the archives to find out
frankly).

But its sold as a 1ppm TCXO. I don't believe it is advertised as anything
other than a 1ppm. The only ref. I can find on the K3 products page is:
"- All signal sources phase-locked to common 49.380 MHz reference
oscillator; 1 PPM TCXO option"

As one who has railed against the previous delivery delays and is still
waiting for the KRX3 and KDVR3 (lets not go there, I know and accept why the
delays), I think I must defend them on this one - they are not advertising
something here that you are not getting.

73 de M0XDF / K3 #174

On 04/03/2008 22:41, "S Sacco" <[hidden email]> sent:

> Hi Brett -
>
> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I PAID for .5 ppm
> capability, and it's not available to me. Further, Elecraft continues
> to advertise and sell it, but makes no effort to disclose that you
> won't be getting everything you paid for.
>
> It should be painfully obvious that there are two issues here - one is
> that the firmware isn't available, and, the other the way Elecraft
> choses to handle that problem.
>
> I find their approach to be very disrespectful of their customers, and
> it's apparently SOP for them.
>
> Let's end this here, okay? I think we've both stated our opinions
> very well, and obviously each of us is steadfast in our position.
>
> 73,
> Steve NN4X
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I don't remember how or why but I knew that it wasn't done before you'd
>> mentioned being upset about it. I wish I knew where it was that I'd learned
>> that but to me it was made very clear that this capability wasn't there yet.
>> Have you noted a difference between the 1ppm you have and the 0.5ppm that
>> they haven't released yet?
>>
>> I'd hope that you realized that there were still some options that weren't
>> fully ready yet and that they were going to be coming in the near future.
>> This is a small piece of the pie and I'm willing to bet its something that
>> you don't even notice and probably don't even have the equipment (or at the
>> very least time) to test it. I think I'd just not fret the numbers and just
>> enjoy the hobby... I understand being upset that the feature isn't there
>> instantly but it's a pretty minor deal considering the cost that you paid
>> for the best receiver in the market right now isn't it?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of S Sacco
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:37 AM
>> To: Elecraft Users
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] High Accuracy TCXO
>>
>> Hi Brett -
>>
>> Simply because they're advertising it with that capability (.5 ppm),
>> and generally figure that if something's being represented and sold
>> with certain capabilities, it should have same, and if it doesn't, it
>> should be disclosed at time of sale.
>>
>> It's been a long time, but I'll guess that I imagined, back last June,
>> that it would be available by the time I took delivery.
>>
>> Thanks & 73,
>>
>> Steve NN4X
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> You do still get a 4ppm improvement so why wouldn't they take money for
>> the
>>> units? Granted the software is supposed to help make a small extra
>>> improvement but I don't see any reason why this would prevent them from
>>> selling the higher accuracy TCXO. Not sure why I think it may have been
>>> this list but I knew that that wasn't implemented yet. Maybe it was a
>>> manual errata or something.
>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: S Sacco [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:31 AM
>>> To: Brett Howard
>>> Cc: Elecraft Users
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] High Accuracy TCXO
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Brett -
>>>
>>> I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your question: Elecraft still
>>> isn't shipping firmware to support the 1ppm TCXO...although they ARE
>>> happily taking our money for the units. (I have one installed).
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Steve NN4X
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/4/08, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Does the higher accuracy TCXO result in lower phase noise? If so in dB
>>>> how much lower would one expect out of a delta in 4 ppm and 4.5 ppm.
>>>> This is assuming the 4ppm which one will get with out implementation of
>>>> firmware correction and 4.5 ppm delta which one will obtain once this
>>>> feature is implemented in firmware.
>>>>
>>>> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
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>>>
>>>
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