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Ideas for an FT8 Radio

Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The computer (raspberry pi et al.) inside the radio box. 50watts output, 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc, and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to expand for more fixed use.
What do you think?
61, Doug K6JEY
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Bill Rowlett

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

25 watts out max.

KC4IM Bill

> On Dec 29, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Doug Millar via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The computer (raspberry pi et al.) inside the radio box. 50watts output, 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc, and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to expand for more fixed use.
> What do you think?
> 61, Doug K6JEY
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Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

50-70 watts out is fine, that will provide adequate drive for most amps to run their full rated power out. If you don’t want that much, turn it down.

Rick WA6NHC

Smell Czech correction happen

> On Dec 29, 2018, at 1:54 PM, Bill Rowlett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 25 watts out max.
>
> KC4IM Bill
>
>
>> On Dec 29, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Doug Millar via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The computer (raspberry pi et al.) inside the radio box. 50watts output, 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc, and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to expand for more fixed use.
>> What do you think?
>> 61, Doug K6JEY
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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jeff stai-2

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;) An
all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.

There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there,
so use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the
complexity of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said
all mode but it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include
CW if it is easy. It will also need a stable clock...

There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you
think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.

If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option for
more watts sounds okay for that.

Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and
happy new year - jeff wk6i

On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 1:27 PM Doug Millar via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in
> one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen
> that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an
> optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The
> computer (raspberry pi et al.) inside the radio box. 50watts output,
> 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This
> would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc,
> and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to
> expand for more fixed use.
> What do you think?
> 61, Doug K6JEY
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

--
Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ [hidden email]
Ask me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 2019 0000-2359 UTC!
RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

Hi Jeff, Good ideas all around. Of course i was thinking of the KX2 and a tablet. I actually went portable in the with that setup. What I didn't like was all the wires and the USB box. If I could get straight from the KX2 to the tablet with audio and rig control that might do the trick. What do you think?   Doug

On Sunday, December 30, 2018, 11:07:48 AM PST, Jeff Stai <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;) An all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.
There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there, so use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the complexity of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said all mode but it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include CW if it is easy. It will also need a stable clock...
There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.
If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option for more watts sounds okay for that.
Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and happy new year - jeff wk6i

On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 1:27 PM Doug Millar via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The computer (raspberry pi et al.) inside the radio box. 50watts output, 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc, and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to expand for more fixed use.
    What do you think?
      61, Doug K6JEY
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--
Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ [hidden email] me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 2019 0000-2359 UTC!RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/

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jeff stai-2

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

Hmmm... as long as you use a generic tablet with a KX2, you're going to
have a box and wires. You could go tablet to USB box and then maybe find
wireless solutions from there. I see there are chargeable bluetooth audio
receivers, for example. I've never seen a simple USB wireless extension,
however. 73 jeff wk6i

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:16 AM Doug Millar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jeff, Good ideas all around. Of course i was thinking of the KX2 and a
> tablet. I actually went portable in the with that setup. What I didn't like
> was all the wires and the USB box. If I could get straight from the KX2 to
> the tablet with audio and rig control that might do the trick. What do you
> think? Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, December 30, 2018, 11:07:48 AM PST, Jeff Stai <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;)
> An all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.
>
> There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there,
> so use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the
> complexity of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said
> all mode but it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include
> CW if it is easy. It will also need a stable clock...
>
> There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you
> think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.
>
> If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option
> for more watts sounds okay for that.
>
> Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and
> happy new year - jeff wk6i
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 1:27 PM Doug Millar via Elecraft <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in
> one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen
> that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an
> optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The
> computer (raspberry pi et al.) inside the radio box. 50watts output,
> 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This
> would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc,
> and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to
> expand for more fixed use.
> What do you think?
> 61, Doug K6JEY
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ [hidden email]
> Ask me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 2019 0000-2359 UTC!
> RTTY op at W7RN
> Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
>
>

W2xj

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

Unless there is enough demand for someone to make it happen.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 30, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Jeff Stai <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hmmm... as long as you use a generic tablet with a KX2, you're going to
> have a box and wires. You could go tablet to USB box and then maybe find
> wireless solutions from there. I see there are chargeable bluetooth audio
> receivers, for example. I've never seen a simple USB wireless extension,
> however. 73 jeff wk6i
>
>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:16 AM Doug Millar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jeff, Good ideas all around. Of course i was thinking of the KX2 and a
>> tablet. I actually went portable in the with that setup. What I didn't like
>> was all the wires and the USB box. If I could get straight from the KX2 to
>> the tablet with audio and rig control that might do the trick. What do you
>> think? Doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, December 30, 2018, 11:07:48 AM PST, Jeff Stai <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;)
>> An all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.
>>
>> There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there,
>> so use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the
>> complexity of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said
>> all mode but it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include
>> CW if it is easy. It will also need a stable clock...
>>
>> There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you
>> think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.
>>
>> If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option
>> for more watts sounds okay for that.
>>
>> Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and
>> happy new year - jeff wk6i
>>
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by jeff stai-2

Jeff,

Concept is good, but ignores the latency problem with Bluetooth. I
think that would be a "killer" for data modes like FT8 which need rather
precise timing.

To get an idea about the latency of Bluetooth, try monitoring your CW
with a Bluetooth headset - unless you are a slow operator, the delay
(which is caused by latency) will drive you to phone operation.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/30/2018 2:26 PM, Jeff Stai wrote:
> Hmmm... as long as you use a generic tablet with a KX2, you're going to
> have a box and wires. You could go tablet to USB box and then maybe find
> wireless solutions from there. I see there are chargeable bluetooth audio
> receivers, for example. I've never seen a simple USB wireless extension,
> however. 73 jeff wk6i
>
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Phil Kane-2

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by jeff stai-2

On 12/30/2018 11:20 AM, Walter Underwood wrote:

> So after five years, the radio will still be competitive, but the computer might not even run current software.

But then again, why update the software when it's doing the job that it
was intended for. A close friend runs his very successful business of
manufacturing and distributing repair parts for musical instruments
using computers running DOS applications!

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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jeff stai-2

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

hi Don - Indeed. I had a line in there about being mindful of bluetooth
delays but it somehow disappeared. ;) 73 jeff wk6i

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 12:55 PM Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> Concept is good, but ignores the latency problem with Bluetooth. I
> think that would be a "killer" for data modes like FT8 which need rather
> precise timing.
>
> To get an idea about the latency of Bluetooth, try monitoring your CW
> with a Bluetooth headset - unless you are a slow operator, the delay
> (which is caused by latency) will drive you to phone operation.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 12/30/2018 2:26 PM, Jeff Stai wrote:
> > Hmmm... as long as you use a generic tablet with a KX2, you're going to
> > have a box and wires. You could go tablet to USB box and then maybe find
> > wireless solutions from there. I see there are chargeable bluetooth audio
> > receivers, for example. I've never seen a simple USB wireless extension,
> > however. 73 jeff wk6i
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>

Todd

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Have a look at some of OH8STN's you tube videos. He's done a lot of
portable FT8 ops and has
a lot of neat ideas...

Later,
Todd KH2TJ

Doug Millar via Elecraft wrote:
> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one radio.
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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

If the radio was basically a Pi Hat then upgrading the computer would be
relatively easy.

.... and using a standard, commonly available computer means that you
could run useful modes, and modes that have yet to be invented, not just
FT8.

73 -- Lynn

On 12/30/2018 1:38 PM, Todd wrote:

> Have a look at some of OH8STN's you tube videos. He's done a lot of
> portable FT8 ops and has
> a lot of neat ideas...
>
> Later,
> Todd KH2TJ
>
> Doug Millar via Elecraft wrote:
>> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all
>> in one radio.
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

alorona

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

That is key. In a little while FT8 will fall out of favor as amateurs move on to the next digital mode, a cycle that has repeated for the entire history of digital modes.

An FT8 specific radio wouldn’t interest, but an “infinitely flexible” digital mode platform with integral computer might.

Al W6LX

> and modes that have yet to be invented, not just FT8.
>
> 73 -- Lynn

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KEN-3

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

Geesh, how much power are people running? I've always thought 50 watts
was excessive for digital modes!

As for the concept of a dedicated FT8 radio, what's going to happen when
FT9 becomes the latest craze? How many people operate Olivia (or even
JT-65) now?

Ken WA8JXM

On 12/29/18 5:23 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:
> 50-70 watts out is fine, that will provide adequate drive for most amps to run their full rated power out. If you don’t want that much, turn it down.
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Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

You run the amount of power required to make the contact, up to the legal limit. If you wish to operate QRP, that’s your choice.

I remind you that RTTY is also digital and full legal limit is common; FT8 is semi-automated RTTY with complex pattern but improved reception. High power is also common. On some bands (160M) its nearly a requirement.

There is no difference between antenna gain, when possible or amp gain of equal dB raise. Many folks can’t use improved antennas (no space or budget), so power is an answer.

The true issue is when folks don’t run clean power.

73,
Rick wa6nhc

Spiel Czech happens

> On Jan 1, 2019, at 8:42 PM, Ken <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Geesh, how much power are people running? I've always thought 50 watts was excessive for digital modes!
>
> As for the concept of a dedicated FT8 radio, what's going to happen when FT9 becomes the latest craze? How many people operate Olivia (or even JT-65) now?
>
> Ken WA8JXM
>
>
>> On 12/29/18 5:23 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:
>> 50-70 watts out is fine, that will provide adequate drive for most amps to run their full rated power out. If you don’t want that much, turn it down.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Bill Frantz

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by KEN-3

The short answer for issues of obsolescence is the same for
computers as it is for RF components: modularization. I replaced
the synthesizers in my K3 when better ones came out. I would
expect to do the same for the computer, whether it is integrated
into the radio package or separate.

I think the best route towards a FT8 radio is to have a radio
that will do FT8 and any other mode its computer can handle.
Running a single-board Linux computer seems attractive. It seems
like the radio will need a keyboard, display, pointing device,
audio, and RS-232 interfaces. Raspberry PIs have USB for
keyboard, pointing device, and RS-232; HDMI for display; and
built-in audio.

For future flexibility, just using USB and HDMI may be
attractive. Or just USB if there are usable USB displays. Using
only one or two interfaces makes swapping computers simple, at
least until the interfaces are no longer supported. USB seem to
have a lifespan on par with radios, so obsolescence seems a low
risk. HDMI is higher risk, as display interfaces are caught up
in the whole Digital Rights Management arms race.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 1/1/19 at 8:42 PM, [hidden email] (Ken) wrote:

>As for the concept of a dedicated FT8 radio, what's going to
>happen when FT9 becomes the latest craze? How many people
>operate Olivia (or even JT-65) now?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"Insofar as the propositions of mathematics
refer to
408-356-8506 | reality, they are not certain; and insofar
they are
www.pwpconsult.com | certain, they do not refer to reality.”
-- Einstein

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Wes Stewart-2

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by KEN-3

You were wrong, but it's a common misconception.

Wes N7WS

On 1/1/2019 9:42 PM, Ken wrote:
> Geesh, how much power are people running? I've always thought 50 watts was
> excessive for digital modes!

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Carl Yaffey

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

Rick, Thanks for this. Some people seem to think FT8 is a low power mode. It’s a weak signal mode.
73, K8NU

> On Jan 1, 2019, at 11:56 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You run the amount of power required to make the contact, up to the legal limit. If you wish to operate QRP, that’s your choice.
>
> I remind you that RTTY is also digital and full legal limit is common; FT8 is semi-automated RTTY with complex pattern but improved reception. High power is also common. On some bands (160M) its nearly a requirement.
>
> There is no difference between antenna gain, when possible or amp gain of equal dB raise. Many folks can’t use improved antennas (no space or budget), so power is an answer.
>
> The true issue is when folks don’t run clean power.
>
> 73,
> Rick wa6nhc
>
> Spiel Czech happens

Carl Yaffey K8NU
Recording studio.
[hidden email]
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.grassahol.com
http://www.bluesswing.com
Https://www.columbusfolkmusicsociety.org
http://www.timbrewolves.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.columbusshotokankarate.com

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Carl-N8VZ

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

While it's legal to run maximum power on FT8, or any other weak signal
mode, it's certainly not in the spirit of the weak signal mode ethos
Most weak-signal mode enthusiasts pride themselves on the worldwide
contacts they can make with low wattage. Many feel that 100 watts is
QRO on these modes. Personally, I usually run about 35 watts, but I've
had QSOs with stations in far-flung regions running power in the
milliwatt range with a dipole up 20 feet. That's the real attraction of
these modes to many. And, until the advent of FT8, you heard very few
stations running more than 100 watts on these modes. FT8 seems to have
attracted a whole different crowd. Some of these, I think, view FT8 as
a "the new RTTY" and operate according to the accepted operating
procedures of that mode. I view this trend as very unfortunate.

73,

Carl

======================================
*Carl Jón Denbow, N8VZ*
17 Coventry Lane Athens, Ohio 45701-3718
<mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
www.n8vz.com <http://www.n8vz.com/>

EM89wh
IRLP 4533 Echolink 116070

PSK and JT65 Forever!
======================================
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Bill Rowlett

Re: Ideas for an FT8 Radio

Dito Carl, well said. I agree 100%

Bill KC4IM

> On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Carl J. Denbow <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> While it's legal to run maximum power on FT8, or any other weak signal mode, it's certainly not in the spirit of the weak signal mode ethos Most weak-signal mode enthusiasts pride themselves on the worldwide contacts they can make with low wattage. Many feel that 100 watts is QRO on these modes. Personally, I usually run about 35 watts, but I've had QSOs with stations in far-flung regions running power in the milliwatt range with a dipole up 20 feet. That's the real attraction of these modes to many. And, until the advent of FT8, you heard very few stations running more than 100 watts on these modes. FT8 seems to have attracted a whole different crowd. Some of these, I think, view FT8 as a "the new RTTY" and operate according to the accepted operating procedures of that mode. I view this trend as very unfortunate.
>
> 73,
>
> Carl
>
> ======================================
> *Carl Jón Denbow, N8VZ*
> 17 Coventry Lane Athens, Ohio 45701-3718
> <mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> www.n8vz.com <http://www.n8vz.com/>
>
> EM89wh
> IRLP 4533 Echolink 116070
>
> PSK and JT65 Forever!
> ======================================
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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