Ideas - new Elecraft Products

[Fred (FL)]

K2/K1 Owner-builders

I posted a "Elecraft New Product Ideas" email last
week - which received mixed responses - "good",
"old stuff", "too difficult for Elecraft",
"done that ....", "won't work", etc.

I think Elecraft is a great ham company.  And as
every builder knows - their support to us the ham
community - is superb!  And their quality of products
and kits is excellent and higher.

I'd suggest, we K1/K2 builders - continue to send in
"product ideas" to Elecraft, via this email list -
and let Elecraft Management know, what product ideas
we'd like to see and what product ideas might help us
in our amateur endeavors.  We might be surprised, and
see some of them come to reality.  If they have to
hire another designer & tech or two, so be it.

If you like the product(s) which Elecraft now markets
and sells - I myself, would like to continue to buy my
next products from them too.  Frankly I've never been
fully satisfied with MFJ items - for some reason many
of them look aluminish and of poorer quality.

BUY ELECRAFT, TELL ELECRAFT WHAT YOU'D LIKE and WHAT
YOU THINK WOULD BE HELPFUL, FOR OUR HOBBY!

My Kits - short list 5/23/2006:
- outboard RF OUTPUT METER Indicator (in-line)
- inboard RF OUTPUT INDICATOR (panel, neon/eye)
- outboard POWER METER (ala Birdy), w/SWR option
- poor man's 6146 200w PEP outboard TUBE AMPLIFIER
    (relive your youth) (FCC ham-project form)
- matching Elecraft 6146 AMP POWER SUPPLY
- 200w match-anything TUNER (coils, meters, R/L/C's)
- a HF K3 TRANSCEIVER, with general coverage, 2  
    meter, 440, and bigger footprint & displays
- an Elecraft K2/K3 MOBILE MIKE, w/up-down, functions
- an Elecraft quality, HEADPHONE set, K1/K2/K3
- a couple HF porta-ANTENNAs, back pack carryable
- a "hide-able" HF ANTENNA (gutter?, bush?)
- Elecraft Mobile VERTICAL ANTENNA (hf, tuneable)
- Elecraft SCOPE for alignment jobs
- Elecraft SIGNAL GENERATOR, for alignment jobs

Thanks, 73's
Fred N3CSY
FL/upstate NY
5/23/2006

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[Craig Rairdin]

I just want to offer a reality check from a person who runs a consumer
software company and gets dozens of emails every week from enthusiastic
customers who have new product/feature ideas. This is not meant to throw a
wet blanket on new product ideas but rather to suggest some reasons why a
company might not be as enthusiastic about a particular idea as one of their
customers is. And of course I'm speaking from my own experience, not on
behalf of Elecraft.

First, we spend 24x7 thinking about our products and where the company
should go next. There are few things that customers mention that we haven't
already mentioned, discussed, drawn up designs for, done the market research
for, etc. This doesn't mean we don't want to hear new ideas, it just gives
you an idea of why a company like ours might not be as excited as its
customers over their new ideas.

Second, we have significantly more information upon which to base a
decision. We have our own financial history and also have insight into the
financial position of our competitors that aren't obvious to customers. We
see every piece of customer feedback so we can gauge whether a new product
is something that would be in demand or not. The thing that really turns on
one customer to the point where he all but demands that we do it could be
something that nobody else has ever mentioned and two other companies have
tried to sell but nobody bought.

Third, we have more experience in all areas of our business, including
marketing, manufacturing, R&D, sales, and support. While a customer idea
might sound easy from an R&D perspective, it might be impossible to
manufacture or support. It could be that the new feature would be expensive
to implement and not have any marketing (and therefore sales) impact.

By all means keep sending in new product ideas. I got a feature suggestion
from a customer yesterday that is going to be easy to implement and will
significantly improve one of our products. I'm embarrassed I didn't think of
it myself. But that's a pretty rare occurrence. If you keep suggesting a
particular thing and it doesn't make it into the product line for months and
years, keep in mind that they know more than you do about their products,
the future of their company, their customers, and their business.

BTW check out www.telepostinc.com -- N8LP's digital wattmeter & other
products. They match some of your requests.

Craig
NZ0R
K1 #1966
K2/100 #4941
KX1 #1499 still in the box



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred (FL)
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Ideas - new Elecraft Products


K2/K1 Owner-builders

I posted a "Elecraft New Product Ideas" email last
week - which received mixed responses - "good",
"old stuff", "too difficult for Elecraft",
"done that ....", "won't work", etc.

I think Elecraft is a great ham company.  And as
every builder knows - their support to us the ham
community - is superb!  And their quality of products
and kits is excellent and higher.

I'd suggest, we K1/K2 builders - continue to send in
"product ideas" to Elecraft, via this email list -
and let Elecraft Management know, what product ideas
we'd like to see and what product ideas might help us
in our amateur endeavors.  We might be surprised, and
see some of them come to reality.  If they have to
hire another designer & tech or two, so be it.

If you like the product(s) which Elecraft now markets
and sells - I myself, would like to continue to buy my
next products from them too.  Frankly I've never been
fully satisfied with MFJ items - for some reason many
of them look aluminish and of poorer quality.

BUY ELECRAFT, TELL ELECRAFT WHAT YOU'D LIKE and WHAT
YOU THINK WOULD BE HELPFUL, FOR OUR HOBBY!

My Kits - short list 5/23/2006:
- outboard RF OUTPUT METER Indicator (in-line)
- inboard RF OUTPUT INDICATOR (panel, neon/eye)
- outboard POWER METER (ala Birdy), w/SWR option
- poor man's 6146 200w PEP outboard TUBE AMPLIFIER
    (relive your youth) (FCC ham-project form)
- matching Elecraft 6146 AMP POWER SUPPLY
- 200w match-anything TUNER (coils, meters, R/L/C's)
- a HF K3 TRANSCEIVER, with general coverage, 2  
    meter, 440, and bigger footprint & displays
- an Elecraft K2/K3 MOBILE MIKE, w/up-down, functions
- an Elecraft quality, HEADPHONE set, K1/K2/K3
- a couple HF porta-ANTENNAs, back pack carryable
- a "hide-able" HF ANTENNA (gutter?, bush?)
- Elecraft Mobile VERTICAL ANTENNA (hf, tuneable)
- Elecraft SCOPE for alignment jobs
- Elecraft SIGNAL GENERATOR, for alignment jobs

Thanks, 73's
Fred N3CSY
FL/upstate NY
5/23/2006

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[Roland Whitsitt]

I've mentioned this before,
I'd like to see a kx2 that gets the other bands.  Like 17/15  12/10
(24/6)?!  Boy, that would be something that no other kit does and only a
couple of other qrp comercial rigs can do.
Roland n5vwn

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[wayne burdick]

Fred (FL) wrote:

> ....builders - continue to send in "product ideas" to Elecraft, via
> this email list....

Much appreciated, Fred. We do read the list  :)   Ideas can be sent
directly to me ([hidden email]) as an alternative.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


---

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[Howard W. Ashcraft]

I don't think Wayne and Eric necessarily need my thoughts on their
business plan...they seem to be doing quite well as it is.  However, my
two bits on future is that I would rather see a few, elegant projects
than a project for every interest.  What Elecraft has done well is to
focus on the "elegant" portion of design, from the perspective that
designs are elegant when they are simple and highly effective.  This
generally means focusing on performance and simplifying interfaces.  It
takes a lot of engineering (and cost) to create fancy interfaces that do
not improve basic performance of the receiver, transceiver or test
instrument.

So, I think the mini-modules are good ideas, but test equipment in
general is not.  As a practical matter, you can buy extremely good used
test equipment at a fraction of the original price if you want to go in
that direction.  (Ask my xyl whether it is possible for someone to buy
lots of used test equipment...)  I seriously doubt you could build an
oscilloscope kit that rivals either the Tek 7000 series or the Tek
portables for anywhere near their current prices.  Ditto for signal
generators if you include wide coverage, modulation options, precision
output and frequency control.  And then there is the calibration
issue...

And while I will continue to buy Elecraft gear (if there is a K3, I'm a
clear candidate), I also think that it is good for the amateur community
to have a variety of quality products/kits available.  If you are
interested in an swr/vector power meter, look at the LP-100 that is just
being released.  There are also some nice kits available if you are
happy with surface mount.  (Actually, I find surface mount to be pretty
straight forward, even with my 54 year old eyes and would like to have
had my KX-1 as a surface mount kit.)  I'm also quite impressed with the
Buddipole products carried by Elecraft, as well.  So, I like the
approach of Elecraft working on core projects and supporting related
projects by other designers and manufacturers.  (Buddipole, Heil)

>From my perspective, I would like to see Elecraft address performance
issues in the K2, such as the SSB board, noise blanker, and the birdies,
especially in the K2/100.  I'm looking into quieting the audio on the
K2, which may turn out to be useful.  The user interface could also use
improvement so that it doesn't require remembering button press
sequences and remembers settings across bands.  A slave receiver based
on the K2 would also be an interesting project.  I'm also probably going
to build a small linear for the KX-1 because I get very frustrated
listening to people who don't answer...  But I think that may be a
homebrew.

Summary:

1) Elecraft is great.
2) But the amateur community needs more than one option
3) Elecraft should stick to "elegant" gear
4) And support quality related products

Ok, it was 4 bits.

Howard Ashcraft, W1WF

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred (FL) [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 5:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Ideas - new Elecraft Products

K2/K1 Owner-builders

I posted a "Elecraft New Product Ideas" email last week - which received
mixed responses - "good", "old stuff", "too difficult for Elecraft",
"done that ....", "won't work", etc.

I think Elecraft is a great ham company.  And as every builder knows -
their support to us the ham community - is superb!  And their quality of
products and kits is excellent and higher.

I'd suggest, we K1/K2 builders - continue to send in "product ideas" to
Elecraft, via this email list - and let Elecraft Management know, what
product ideas we'd like to see and what product ideas might help us in
our amateur endeavors.  We might be surprised, and see some of them come
to reality.  If they have to hire another designer & tech or two, so be
it.

If you like the product(s) which Elecraft now markets and sells - I
myself, would like to continue to buy my next products from them too.
Frankly I've never been fully satisfied with MFJ items - for some reason
many of them look aluminish and of poorer quality.

BUY ELECRAFT, TELL ELECRAFT WHAT YOU'D LIKE and WHAT YOU THINK WOULD BE
HELPFUL, FOR OUR HOBBY!

My Kits - short list 5/23/2006:
- outboard RF OUTPUT METER Indicator (in-line)
- inboard RF OUTPUT INDICATOR (panel, neon/eye)
- outboard POWER METER (ala Birdy), w/SWR option
- poor man's 6146 200w PEP outboard TUBE AMPLIFIER
    (relive your youth) (FCC ham-project form)
- matching Elecraft 6146 AMP POWER SUPPLY
- 200w match-anything TUNER (coils, meters, R/L/C's)
- a HF K3 TRANSCEIVER, with general coverage, 2  
    meter, 440, and bigger footprint & displays
- an Elecraft K2/K3 MOBILE MIKE, w/up-down, functions
- an Elecraft quality, HEADPHONE set, K1/K2/K3
- a couple HF porta-ANTENNAs, back pack carryable
- a "hide-able" HF ANTENNA (gutter?, bush?)
- Elecraft Mobile VERTICAL ANTENNA (hf, tuneable)
- Elecraft SCOPE for alignment jobs
- Elecraft SIGNAL GENERATOR, for alignment jobs

Thanks, 73's
Fred N3CSY
FL/upstate NY
5/23/2006

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[Ian Stirling, G4ICV, AB2GR]

  CW only, optimized, completely analogue, airspaced variable capacitor tuned,
quality mechanical reduction (not planetary), mono-band, single conversion,
preferably Top Band first, transceiver.
  I'm working on it myself -  bought twelve 15"x12" double sided copper clad
boards at $4.25 per board for the rest of my lifetime needs.
 TUF-3 mixers soon, or maybe I should use a 6JH8 beam deflection mixer hybrid
like the Practical Wireless 'Epson' in September 1974 by G4AR (SK).

  The K2 is good, but typically too digital nowadays.

Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR, K2 #4962 (born in 1956)
--
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[VR2BrettGraham]

A general comment (N3CSY gave me something to ponder
over this morning's tea - cheers ;^)...

The trend in amps results in nifty products coming out like the
big KPAs, but some of the extra features beyond the core
function of amplifying add fair amount to BOM cost & drive
prices higher.

Likewise radios.  I sure hope any future K3-like product doesn't
go that way, too (unless I work again, that would be only thing
I probably will be able to afford ;^(...

Plug 'n play SO2R in an amp is probably about as important
to most of market as some potential features in a future Elecraft
radio.  A transfer relay & little bit of logic & I can SO2R a
Hercules, an amp that can drive higher SWRs safely - no
tuner, thank you (if I need one, I already have - besides,
really don't put power into any antenna that needs matching
close to shack-in-flat).  Likewise sniff-n-switch bandswitching.

Nice features, but wish they could have been options.  To keep
up with the market, that Herc is unlikely to be retired anytime
soon.  There's nothing solid-state, moderate power, robust &
not quite dear.  The same for radios, they've snowballed & not
much choice in really good radios that aren't dear.

Being able to fix the rig & keep it going are becoming even
more important, as already have had a reasonably recent
rig from major brand pop a now-obsolete part.  A very popular
first-string performance radio already has a critical unable-to-
obtain part - I shudder to think what I will do when some of the
custom-but-currently-still-available critical bits in some of
my other radios finally go.

Affordability (sp?), core function performance & serviceability
are the key attractions with Brand-E to me & hopefully can be
kept in mind with future products.  At first it might not sound so
flash or appealing, but for something beyond the K2 a divide
down-from-VHF PLL or more significant IF filtering & trickery is
generally of benefit to more compared to what it might cost
compared to some other feature (say adding VHF/UHF).  For
general coverage receive to work & not wilt in some
environments without a significant beefing up of things in
general is another example (something I would like but not at
expense of BOM cost or OOB rejection performance -
increasingly important for everyone).

Though for all I know, I'm in an insignificant market
demographic - but I hope someday there will be a reason to
have to ration precious rice money for a killer post-K2 rig!

73, VR2BrettGraham

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[wayne burdick]

For those of you who have noted that $5K+ is not cheap, a very brief
history lesson and prediction follows.

1999:

- Elecraft's first transceiver was pretty big and sophisticated for a
"QRP" rig.
   We gambled on this to get people's attention. The K2 then evolved in
many directions.
   Subsequent transceivers were smaller and lower in cost, but benefitted
   from what we had learned.

2006:

- Elecraft's first amplifier is rather big and sophisticated.
   We're gambling on this to get people's attention. The amp will evolve
in many directions.
   Subsequent models will be smaller and lower in cost, but will benefit
   from what we've learned.

:)

Wayne


----

http://www.elecraft.com


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[w6jd]

Those are the kind of words I like to hear!

73,
Doug, W6JD

-------------- Original message --------------
From: wayne burdick <[hidden email]>

> For those of you who have noted that $5K+ is not cheap, a very brief
> history lesson and prediction follows.
>
> 1999:
>
> - Elecraft's first transceiver was pretty big and sophisticated for a
> "QRP" rig.
> We gambled on this to get people's attention. The K2 then evolved in
> many directions.
> Subsequent transceivers were smaller and lower in cost, but benefitted
> from what we had learned.
>
> 2006:
>
> - Elecraft's first amplifier is rather big and sophisticated.
> We're gambling on this to get people's attention. The amp will evolve
> in many directions.
> Subsequent models will be smaller and lower in cost, but will benefit
> from what we've learned.
>
> :)
>
> Wayne
>
>
> ----
>
> http://www.elecraft.com 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft 
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm 
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com 

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

One clarification - Wayne is correct in stating that many of our
products evolve and morph into additional  versions over time. But its
important to note that we are not developing any other amplifiers right
now besides the KPA800 and KPA1500. We're 100% committed to getting
these out and want to keep our engineering and production energy focused.

These definitely are higher end, high performance products. What is
important is that they bring a whole new crowd of customers into the
Elecraft world, broadening our appeal and customer base - which insures
our long term survival. Getting products like these on line also will
generate the revenue necessary for us to design even more new products
covering the complete range of pricing, features, power etc. Don't worry
- we have lots of fun products planned for the next several years :-)

Now - back to the lab! :-)

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
Elecraft
------

[hidden email] wrote:

> Those are the kind of words I like to hear!
> 73,
> Doug, W6JD
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: wayne burdick <[hidden email]>
>> For those of you who have noted that $5K+ is not cheap, a very brief
>> history lesson and prediction follows.
>>
>> 1999:
>>
>> - Elecraft's first transceiver was pretty big and sophisticated for a
>> "QRP" rig.
>> We gambled on this to get people's attention. The K2 then evolved in
>> many directions.
>> Subsequent transceivers were smaller and lower in cost, but benefitted
>> from what we had learned.
>>
>> 2006:
>>
>> - Elecraft's first amplifier is rather big and sophisticated.
>> We're gambling on this to get people's attention. The amp will evolve
>> in many directions.
>> Subsequent models will be smaller and lower in cost, but will benefit
>> from what we've learned.
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Wayne
>>    

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[Fred (FL)]

I love the "product idea" for a K2b or K3, based on
an upgrade to K2 base!  New Front Panel, New Control
Board - and some new options that plug into one's
existing K2 RF Board.  (I couldn't readily find who
put up that idea - but great!)

New Ideas  -  I beg to differ, and my 3 cents.  In
any large organization, one would think that they
"think" and create new product ideas regularly and
quite naturally.  When in fact this is often not
the case.  It is often NOT design, NOT marketing,
NOT R&D - who come up with the new product or
invention ideas.

I worked for 30 years in more than a few R&D orgs -
where ideas could flourish - and "marketing" would
squash.  What drives new products?  Marketing's
quest for profit centers.  At Kodak, in the 70's -
the thought of a 35mm "Kodak" camera was NO.
The "camera" was a consummer of film - perhaps the
camera itself, as a product, was a loss leader -
(it was) to create more and predictable film
consumption.

In ham radio - so many very creative hams, have
a many very good ideas, needs, and operating
observations.  I think it is great, if one's
Manufactuging choice for ham gear, encourages that.
It sure looks like Elecraft, is such a company!

Ideas, "what if" ideas - often, like new musical
scores - magically appear.  It is not often something
one can creat a "new product group", and expect them
to crank out new product ideas.  It is said, Handel
came up with the entire "Messiah" in a matter of
weeks.  (over 20 or 30 very very complicated
compositions)

The practical side of me, wants a K3 with more knobs
and operator variable inputs, not less.  I don't want
to have a PC control center - with a RIG BOX somewhere
back in the closet awaiting the next PC
command.  I've just spent oodles of time - working
with my new K2 #005422 - and Spectrogram, tweaking
the CW and neg CW and SSB filter characteristics.
It's starting to sound very sensitive.  I'd now
like to think there is some "upgrade path" for my
K2 - more options, big options, K3 options, K2B
new Control Broard,  new FRONT PANEL ........

And a few "outboard" options - to hang onto or sit
next to my K2, would be nice.  I don't want to wire
a AMP inside my K2 - me, I'd like to sit it next
to my K2.  An outboard RF Output/SWR meter, an
AMP, a tuning indicator, a set of quality Earphones,
a good Elecraft mobile Mike, .........., a Meter
option for my K2B, top mounted?, a K2 "bus I/O"
option - coming out of K2 side panel - to allow
attachment of a whole range of auxilliary and
useful outboard "bells and whistles"!  :)

Project?  The IEEE, in 1978, saved away all of the
then Vacuum Tube technologies - into a huge IEEE
data base.  So there must be something to those
tubes, some inherent quality.  HOW SMALL COULD YOU
DESIGN A dual-6146 TUBE AMPLIFIER, how big would it
be, sitting next to my K2?  How much PEP/CW Power
could it put out onto a Dipole?  What would the
power requirements be?  Could my Astron 35M power
it?  Would a dual-tube 6146 AMP, sound more powerful,
than todays 100W solid state amp?  Do tubes inherently
have a magic "audio" quality, that is
discernable on the airwaves?  Does someone know
of such a circuit, with a 2006 parts list.  Is
it buildable, by a few hams?  Does QST have such
a beast?   Sure sounds like a fun ham, project to
this ham.

It is said, McIntosh's TUBE AMPLIFEIRS still draw
BIG BUCKS, for the hi-fi/stereo buff.  Why?

....
Fred N3CSY
having fun with my K2 # 005422
nice way to spend some of my retirement!
what can I add to or beside it, nexs?
5/24







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[Vic K2VCO]

Fred (FL) wrote:

> It is said, McIntosh's TUBE AMPLIFEIRS still draw
> BIG BUCKS, for the hi-fi/stereo buff.  Why?

Because some people confuse superstition and science.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[Rick Dettinger-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ideas - new Elecraft Products

> Fred (FL) wrote:
>
> > It is said, McIntosh's TUBE AMPLIFEIRS still draw
> > BIG BUCKS, for the hi-fi/stereo buff.  Why?
>
> Because some people confuse superstition and science.
> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA

--------------------------------------------------------------
When I worked for a power company, our customer representative got a call
from a customer  wanting to know how his power was generated .  He had read
an article in a stereo magazine informing the readers that power generated
by natural means (hydro,wind or solar) would produce more natural sounding
music.  Its hard for engineers to give advice in such instances.  My impulse
was to tell him that our power was not only natural but organic also.
Rick Dettinger
K7MW

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[Ron-72]

People....
You really should know. I repeat....know... hands down....tube amplifiers
are the big winner in seeking esoteric audio reproduction. McIntosh brings
big bucks for a reason. Solid state just can't do what tubes can. Solid
state feels harsh, sounds harsh. Tubes bring reality to audio reproduction.
Warmth...

One suggestion here, if Wayne is interested in better audio. That is,
polypropolene capacitors. Clearity that has to be heard to be believed. Oh,
what it does for a woman's voice. David Hafler used these in his cost
conscience high end audio products.

You guys really should go listen to some high end audio. It is so good. You
remember that talk about "back masking"? Where they would record things
backwards on the rock music? Well...with high end audio...you can hear that
stuff so good that it sticks out like a wart on a person's nose. In order to
listen to some of this stuff. You have to seek out a specialized high end
audio store.


Ron Pyle
kc0qxu
Hot Springs, SD
When being chased by a bear. You don't have to outrun the bear. You just
have to outrun the other guy.
Beware of kisses from Pit Bulls...They might have the flu...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Dettinger" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ideas - new Elecraft Products

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ideas - new Elecraft Products
>
>
>> Fred (FL) wrote:
>>
>> > It is said, McIntosh's TUBE AMPLIFEIRS still draw
>> > BIG BUCKS, for the hi-fi/stereo buff.  Why?
>>
>> Because some people confuse superstition and science.
>> --
>> 73,
>> Vic, K2VCO
>> Fresno CA
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> When I worked for a power company, our customer representative got a call
> from a customer  wanting to know how his power was generated .  He had
> read
> an article in a stereo magazine informing the readers that power generated
> by natural means (hydro,wind or solar) would produce more natural sounding
> music.  Its hard for engineers to give advice in such instances.  My
> impulse
> was to tell him that our power was not only natural but organic also.
> Rick Dettinger
> K7MW
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.0/346 - Release Date: 5/23/2006
>
>

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[Don Wilhelm-3]

There are some high-end solid state audio equipment that will add 3rd
harmonic distortion to achieve the 'tube sound'.  Yes, some will pay big
bucks to be able to hear such distortion.

73,
Don W3FPR

-----Original Message-----

> Fred (FL) wrote:
>
> > It is said, McIntosh's TUBE AMPLIFEIRS still draw
> > BIG BUCKS, for the hi-fi/stereo buff.  Why?
>
> Because some people confuse superstition and science.
> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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[Bill Steffey NY9H]

JUST PUT A XFORMER ON IT .......

I remember when Altec's Bart Locanthi while doing a stint at JBL
developed the first directly coupled complementary symmetry amp  SE 400....
It was a sold state map that WAS clean, not like Hafler's ST-120.
( that would be a dynaco)

Everyone else used output transformers, certainly the tube guys.
Transformers did stuff to the sound, nice smoothing harmonic
distortion. Different sound.

I believe that MANY products that are sold under controlled
circumstances, such as McIntosh & Bose, with discounting not just
frowned upon, but enforced , are able to keep the "street" image up
high, along with the profit margins and commissions.
Take a look whose pushing biodegradble dioxified audio cables.
Those things don't even have trans-fats!!!!  But WOW,,, if I am to
impress my neighbors I need speakers that my local audio esoteric
emporium sells.
Not those overdistributed JBLs from Best Buy.    esoteric= hi profit margins

Monstercable in the 80s introduced super premium computer cables, but
the new market could not absorb that 'concept'. I think he ( Noel) is
back and now successful with the line. Do they make a 1 a better 1 ???

I just can't appreciate the HiFi SSB either.

hi ken ( ex sales mgr at JBL Pro)  hihi....I know he's here, and enjoying this.

bill

At 08:25 AM 5/25/2006, you wrote:

>People....
>You really should know. I repeat....know... hands down....tube
>amplifiers are the big winner in seeking esoteric audio
>reproduction. McIntosh brings big bucks for a reason. Solid state
>just can't do what tubes can. Solid state feels harsh, sounds harsh.
>Tubes bring reality to audio reproduction. Warmth...

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[Darwin, Keith]

Years ago, I was intelligent and believed that the specs on stereo gear
told the whole story.  One good power amp sounded the same as another
one.  Good enough was good enough, the human ear can't hear the
difference.  CD players all sound the same (perfect).  Tubes and SS
sound the same, all the hype is just marketing hype.

Then one day, I was in a stereo store, listening to some speakers.
Suddenly the sound changed a bit.  I asked the salesman what he changed.
The power amp.  Same preamp, same CD player, same speakers, different
power amp (both high end models from the same manufacturer) and the
sound changed.  Bass got a bit tighter and the saxophone got a bit more
"presence".  I could hear it.

We also did an A/B test between 2 CD players.  On the cheap player, when
the flute player inhaled, you heard a person breathe in.  On the
expensive player, you could hear the person's vocal character as he
breathed in.  The difference between the detail in the piano and flute
were huge.

Bottom line - Despite our efforts to reduce the sound of things to a
formula the way circuits sound is tough to characterize.  Often, similar
things don't sound similar.

I've learned to put my "engineering knowledge" aside and make judgments
based on what I hear rather than what I already know.

And THAT approach is what has led me to the K2.  The sound of the audio
is far better than other rigs I've tried.  It is SMOOTH SOUND, pleasing
to listen to, nice to operate.

- Keith KD1E -
- K2 5411 -


>People....
>You really should know. I repeat....know... hands down....tube
>amplifiers are the big winner in seeking esoteric audio reproduction.
>McIntosh brings big bucks for a reason. Solid state just can't do what
>tubes can. Solid state feels harsh, sounds harsh.
>Tubes bring reality to audio reproduction. Warmth...
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[Jim Brown-10]

>Tubes bring reality to audio reproduction. Warmth...

It's called second harmonic distortion. That's what the "Warmth"
control in master console designer Rupert Neve's effects processor
adds to the signal to produce "that tube sound." He found that
customers (recording engineers) preferred a setting on the order of
3%.

Thanks for the slow curve over the middle of the plate, Bill.

Jim Brown  K9YC


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[Vic K2VCO]

Ron wrote:

> You really should know. I repeat....know... hands down....tube
> amplifiers are the big winner in seeking esoteric audio reproduction.
> McIntosh brings big bucks for a reason. Solid state just can't do what
> tubes can. Solid state feels harsh, sounds harsh. Tubes bring reality to
> audio reproduction. Warmth...

Any form of reproduction of sound is imperfect to some degree.  Sound is
recorded by imperfect microphones, recorded by imperfect devices onto
imperfect media, amplified by amplifiers with some degree of distortion,
  played through speakers with bumpy frequency response, and reproduced
in a room which is different from the original studio or live venue.  If
you are listening at a lower level than the original (pretty much a
necessity in our crowded world), then even characteristics of the human
ear need to be taken into account.

Some people would like to be able to listen to a recording of a
performance and have it entirely indistinguishable from the experience
of the original performance, although it's impossible to do an A/B
comparison, since by definition the listener isn't in the studio. But if
this is your goal, then various devices along the way must introduce the
least possible distortion of the signal -- that means harmonic
distortion, IMD, less-than-smooth frequency response, transient effects,
etc. This is a matter of engineering and cost, and results can be
measured.  Tubes are not in general better in this regard than modern
solid-state designs.

Others like music to sound a certain way that's more pleasing to them.
They prefer to tailor the response of their systems so that the
distortion that they get is the right kind of distortion -- the kind
that makes the music feel 'warm' or 'smooth'.  They feel that tubes tend
to produce this kind of sound.  Actually, a solid state amplifier can do
exactly the same thing, if the correct kind of distortion is introduced.

There is a subculture of audio enthusiasts who believe that such things
as the oxygen molecules in their power cords and the dielectric in
bypass capacitors affects the quality of their sound.  To understand
this phenomenon see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult>.  Or just
Google 'cargo cult'.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[Dave Sublette]

Esteemed group,

I have really enjoyed lurking and reading this thread, which until now,
has emphasized the technical aspects of music recordings. I can't help
but add the following comments about the human aspects.

Studio recordings are wonderful in that they allow control of many
things, a quiet room being the chief one, I believe.  In this day of
digital technology, even a flat note from the third violin on the last
half of the third beat of the 178th measure can be digitally corrected,
and is done so regularly by compulsive producers. Full movie scores are
regularly produced on synthesizers, thus putting many fine musicians out
of work. Some movie composers and directors still insist on live
musicians, recording the score in front of a large screen which is
showing the scene for which the music is being written and performed.  
This results in a superior movie score, in my opinion.  Many
commercially available CDs, recorded in a studio, are missing the vital
humanness of a live performance.

I will take a jazz tune recorded in a smoky lounge after 2 AM or on
stage live at a jazz festival over one recorded in a studio any time
because  the performances in front of a live, appreciative audience
evokes an extra measure of excellence from the musicians performing the
piece. All audiences are not equal. Sometimes the synergy between
performers and audience is so intense, you can feel it, taste it, and
cut it with a knife. Other times the audiences are so dead, it actually
puts a damper on the musicians performance.. Also. you can listen to the
same group or artist perform the same tune a hundred times before a live
audience and you will get a hundred variations, some better than the
best-selling recording of the same song. Listen to five different
symphony orchestras play the same classical piece and you will get five
variations. At least it gives the music critics, who evidently cannot do
anything else  productive in society, something to write about.

Some musicians/composers/directors believe that music doesn't exist
until it is performed in front of a live audience. I don't have a
problem with that. Also, I personally believe that the reason we have
these endless discussions is that music falls into a special category of
its own. It opens a window into the soul of the listener and moves us in
ways we otherwise cannot be moved. For the performer, life is not real,
in some sense, unless he (or she) can perform.

I speak from the heart, although I am not a professional musician. I am
educated and earned my living as an electrical engineer but  have
performed as an amateur musician for 53 years. I presently play trumpet
in several groups an am on stage at least 60 times a year. I still take
lessons. I have played for as few as a dozen in the audience and for as
many as 8000. I love it. I have come to recognize music as part of my
life's fabric.


As in everything else in life, your opinion may differ, and I respect
that. I do believe in balance in all things in life, but fail to achieve
it most of the time ;-).  My wife says she never has to worry about me
being in a bar or chasing other women. I'm either behind the horn or
under the headphones. She may not be able to talk to me easily, but she
knows where I am.

Whatever type of music you like and whatever type of equipment you
prefer listening to it on, good for you (except for rap--rap is
entertainment, but not music IMHO).

73,

Dave, K4TO


Vic K2VCO wrote:

> Ron wrote:
>
>> You really should know. I repeat....know... hands down....tube
>> amplifiers are the big winner in seeking esoteric audio reproduction.
>> McIntosh brings big bucks for a reason. Solid state just can't do
>> what tubes can. Solid state feels harsh, sounds harsh. Tubes bring
>> reality to audio reproduction. Warmth...
>
> Any form of reproduction of sound is imperfect to some degree.  Sound
> is recorded by imperfect microphones, recorded by imperfect devices
> onto imperfect media, amplified by amplifiers with some degree of
> distortion,  played through speakers with bumpy frequency response,
> and reproduced in a room which is different from the original studio
> or live venue.  If you are listening at a lower level than the
> original (pretty much a necessity in our crowded world), then even
> characteristics of the human ear need to be taken into account.
>
> Some people would like to be able to listen to a recording of a
> performance and have it entirely indistinguishable from the experience
> of the original performance, although it's impossible to do an A/B
> comparison, since by definition the listener isn't in the studio. But
> if this is your goal, then various devices along the way must
> introduce the least possible distortion of the signal -- that means
> harmonic distortion, IMD, less-than-smooth frequency response,
> transient effects, etc. This is a matter of engineering and cost, and
> results can be measured.  Tubes are not in general better in this
> regard than modern solid-state designs.
>
> Others like music to sound a certain way that's more pleasing to them.
> They prefer to tailor the response of their systems so that the
> distortion that they get is the right kind of distortion -- the kind
> that makes the music feel 'warm' or 'smooth'.  They feel that tubes
> tend to produce this kind of sound.  Actually, a solid state amplifier
> can do exactly the same thing, if the correct kind of distortion is
> introduced.
>
> There is a subculture of audio enthusiasts who believe that such
> things as the oxygen molecules in their power cords and the dielectric
> in bypass capacitors affects the quality of their sound.  To
> understand this phenomenon see
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult>.  Or just Google 'cargo cult'.

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