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Illogical coding

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Robert Ansell

Illogical coding

Hi All, I recently had to replace the front panel on my SN 1401 K3 because of a blank display. This just arrived today with the latest software/firmware dated 9/9/08. All went smoothly and now I can see the display as it should be. I went through all the cal and setup routines and all was perfect. I was turning my attention to the bands and was looking to snag a new country on cw. I noticed that the station was listening up in frequency so I engaged a split on VFO B and set the frequency and tried to call but no action out of my key. I looked at the display and discovered that I was no longer in QSK only VOX so I hit the QSK button and VFO B came back and said N/A in the screen! I tried several times to engage QSK but no way was I going to get the K3 to key. Going back to XIT I was able to snag that guy but here is where it gets interesting. I called Elecraft and asked what was going on and Scott had no Idea but asked me what version of manual I had and discovered that I had an old version C that was over a year old! I downloaded the newest version of the manual and much to my surprise there was a note that is not in the earlier version about B SET that indicated it could be set up in a different mode! Sure enough that VFO had been set up for SSB and that was why I could not key the radio. Why on earth if you are in CW on VFO A and press split would you ever expect that VFO B would ever default to anything but CW on VFO B!!! This in my opinion is completely illogical. Can anyone out there give me an explanation why I should be wrong on this account? I might have been upset if I didn't go back to XIT to solve the problem but I can just see in a contest situation where someone was unaware of this that sparks wouldn't fly. What say you guys!

Bob Ansell K1WGM
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Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: Illogical coding

In a related vein, the "improvement" introduced in version 1.87/1.69
still gets me once in a while. Previously, a single tap of the A->B
button copied frequency, mode and filter settings from VFO A to VFO B.
Starting with 1.87, two taps are needed - the first to copy the
frequency, and another to copy mode and filter settings. The result
can be the same as in your case if I go split but forget to tap A->B
twice. No rationale was given for the change, but from a ergonomics
standpoint I never understood why the most common use case was
complicated in this way.

Bob NW8L

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Robert Ansell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All, I recently had to replace the front panel on my SN 1401 K3 because of a blank display. This just arrived today with the latest software/firmware dated 9/9/08. All went smoothly and now I can see the display as it should be. I went through all the cal and setup routines and all was perfect. I was turning my attention to the bands and was looking to snag a new country on cw. I noticed that the station was listening up in frequency so I engaged a split on VFO B and set the frequency and tried to call but no action out of my key. I looked at the display and discovered that I was no longer in QSK only VOX so I hit the QSK button and VFO B came back and said N/A in the screen! I tried several times to engage QSK but no way was I going to get the K3 to key. Going back to XIT I was able to snag that guy but here is where it gets interesting. I called Elecraft and asked what was going on and Scott had no Idea but asked me what version of manual I had and discovered that I had an old version C that was over a year old! I downloaded the newest version of the manual and much to my surprise there was a note that is not in the earlier version about B SET that indicated it could be set up in a different mode! Sure enough that VFO had been set up for SSB and that was why I could not key the radio. Why on earth if you are in CW on VFO A and press split would you ever expect that VFO B would ever default to anything but CW on VFO B!!! This in my opinion is completely illogical. Can anyone out there give me an explanation why I should be wrong on this account? I might have been upset if I didn't go back to XIT to solve the problem but I can just see in a contest situation where someone was unaware of this that sparks wouldn't fly. What say you guys!
>
> Bob Ansell K1WGM
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Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

Re: Illogical coding

Administrator

It might be because having the first tap copy everything and the second
tap uncopy some of it would be harder than having the first tap copy
some of it and the second tap copy the rest.
Leigh/WA5ZNU
> Starting with 1.87, two taps are needed - the first to copy the
> frequency, and another to copy mode and filter settings. The result
> can be the same as in your case if I go split but forget to tap A->B
> twice. No rationale was given for the change, but from a ergonomics
> standpoint I never understood why the most common use case was
> complicated in this way.
>
> Bob NW8L
>

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alsopb

Re: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

Bob,

In fact, just pressing SPLIT should get you to the same condition as two
A-B taps and pressing SPLIT.

Miss one of the three steps are you're transmitting on the DX frequency.

I just don't understand the logic. It isn't if operating split is a
rare occurrence.

Those few who want cross band or cross mode splits ought to have to do
the extra taps.

I really hope Elecraft will fix this some day. Other rigs have it right.

Of course there is the $600 solution........

73 de Brian/K3KO

Bob Cunnings wrote:

>In a related vein, the "improvement" introduced in version 1.87/1.69
>still gets me once in a while. Previously, a single tap of the A->B
>button copied frequency, mode and filter settings from VFO A to VFO B.
>Starting with 1.87, two taps are needed - the first to copy the
>frequency, and another to copy mode and filter settings. The result
>can be the same as in your case if I go split but forget to tap A->B
>twice. No rationale was given for the change, but from a ergonomics
>standpoint I never understood why the most common use case was
>complicated in this way.
>
>Bob NW8L
>
>On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Robert Ansell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi All, I recently had to replace the front panel on my SN 1401 K3 because of a blank display. This just arrived today with the latest software/firmware dated 9/9/08. All went smoothly and now I can see the display as it should be. I went through all the cal and setup routines and all was perfect. I was turning my attention to the bands and was looking to snag a new country on cw. I noticed that the station was listening up in frequency so I engaged a split on VFO B and set the frequency and tried to call but no action out of my key. I looked at the display and discovered that I was no longer in QSK only VOX so I hit the QSK button and VFO B came back and said N/A in the screen! I tried several times to engage QSK but no way was I going to get the K3 to key. Going back to XIT I was able to snag that guy but here is where it gets interesting. I called Elecraft and asked what was going on and Scott had no Idea but asked me what version of manual I had and discovered that I had an old version C that was over a year old! I downloaded the newest version of the manual and much to my surprise there was a note that is not in the earlier version about B SET that indicated it could be set up in a different mode! Sure enough that VFO had been set up for SSB and that was why I could not key the radio. Why on earth if you are in CW on VFO A and press split would you ever expect that VFO B would ever default to anything but CW on VFO B!!! This in my opinion is completely illogical. Can anyone out there give me an explanation why I should be wrong on this account? I might have been upset if I didn't go back to XIT to solve the problem but I can just see in a contest situation where someone was unaware of this that sparks wouldn't fly. What say you guys!
>>
>>Bob Ansell K1WGM
>>_______________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Post to: [hidden email]
>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>

KK7P

Re: Illogical coding

> In fact, just pressing SPLIT should get you to the same condition as two
> A-B taps and pressing SPLIT.

While cross-mode QSOs are not as common on HF as they are on 6 meters,
such an implementation would make them extremely difficult.

The K3 is a complex radio and has its own personality. After you spend
some time with it, you'll probably get to know it quite well.

> I really hope Elecraft will fix this some day.

The changes came about as a result of careful deliberation based on
input from customers, followed by field testing and evaluation of that
feedback.

We're listening!

73,

Lyle KK7P

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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

> In a related vein, the "improvement" introduced in version
> 1.87/1.69 still gets me once in a while. Previously, a single
> tap of the A->B button copied frequency, mode and filter
> settings from VFO A to VFO B. Starting with 1.87, two taps
> are needed - the first to copy the frequency, and another to
> copy mode and filter settings.

I agree with Bob. The "tap dance" for split is very prone to
error. I can't think of any other transceiver that requires
two presses of the A->B button to store both mode and frequency.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Cunnings
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Illogical coding
>
>
> In a related vein, the "improvement" introduced in version
> 1.87/1.69 still gets me once in a while. Previously, a single
> tap of the A->B button copied frequency, mode and filter
> settings from VFO A to VFO B. Starting with 1.87, two taps
> are needed - the first to copy the frequency, and another to
> copy mode and filter settings. The result can be the same as
> in your case if I go split but forget to tap A->B twice. No
> rationale was given for the change, but from a ergonomics
> standpoint I never understood why the most common use case
> was complicated in this way.
>
> Bob NW8L
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Robert Ansell
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi All, I recently had to replace the front panel on my SN 1401 K3
> > because of a blank display. This just arrived today with the latest
> > software/firmware dated 9/9/08. All went smoothly and now I can see
> > the display as it should be. I went through all the cal and setup
> > routines and all was perfect. I was turning my attention to
> the bands
> > and was looking to snag a new country on cw. I noticed that the
> > station was listening up in frequency so I engaged a split on VFO B
> > and set the frequency and tried to call but no action out
> of my key. I
> > looked at the display and discovered that I was no longer
> in QSK only
> > VOX so I hit the QSK button and VFO B came back and said N/A in the
> > screen! I tried several times to engage QSK but no way was
> I going to
> > get the K3 to key. Going back to XIT I was able to snag
> that guy but
> > here is where it gets interesting. I called Elecraft and asked what
> > was going on and Scott had no Idea but asked me what
> version of manual
> > I had and discovered that I had an old version C that was
> over a year
> > old! I downloaded the newest version of the manual and much to my
> > surprise there was a note that is not in the earlier
> version about B
> > SET that indicated it could be set up in a different mode!
> Sure enough
> > that VFO had been set up for SSB and that was why I could
> not key the
> > radio. Why on earth if you are in CW on VFO A and press split would
> > you ever expect that VFO B would ever default to anything
> but CW on
> > VFO B!!! This in my opinion is completely illogical. Can anyone out
> > there give me an explanation why I should be wrong on this
> account? I
> > might have been upset if I didn't go back to XIT to solve
> the problem
> > but I can just see in a contest situation where someone was
> unaware of
> > this that sparks wouldn't fly. What say you guys!
> >
> > Bob Ansell K1WGM _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

dj7mgq

Re: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by KK7P

> The changes came about as a result of careful deliberation based on
> input from customers, followed by field testing and evaluation of that
> feedback.
>
> We're listening!

Maybe this kind of behaviour ought to be configurable. Should this
lead to a "built in menu overload", I, personally, wouldn't mind using
an external tool. Once set, I doubt I would ever change something like
this again.

BTW: I like the current solution...

vy 73 de toby

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Roger Marrotte-2

RE: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by KK7P

This two button push thing to copy all info to VFO B is the only thing that
I don't like about my K3. I've had my K3 for a little over two months and I
still don't like this feature. Why not make the two button thing an option.
Everything else has an option. I agree with Joe. I really hope Elecraft
will fix this some day.

Roger, W1EM

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lyle Johnson
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:57 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Illogical coding

> In fact, just pressing SPLIT should get you to the same condition as
> two A-B taps and pressing SPLIT.

While cross-mode QSOs are not as common on HF as they are on 6 meters, such
an implementation would make them extremely difficult.

The K3 is a complex radio and has its own personality. After you spend some
time with it, you'll probably get to know it quite well.

> I really hope Elecraft will fix this some day.

The changes came about as a result of careful deliberation based on input
from customers, followed by field testing and evaluation of that feedback.

We're listening!

73,

Lyle KK7P

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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by KK7P

> > In fact, just pressing SPLIT should get you to the same
> > condition as two A-B taps and pressing SPLIT.
>
> While cross-mode QSOs are not as common on HF as they are on
> 6 meters, such an implementation would make them extremely
> difficult.

The CW in SSB feature makes cross mode QSOs no different than
a SSB QSO. It is no problem to narrow the filters in SSB if
necessary - even to the point of using a 500 Hz 1st IF filter
as long as it is enabled in SSB.

If a user insists on setting VFO B to a different mode, "B Set,
Mode, B Set" is certainly adequate to "undo" any mode change
caused by A -> B.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lyle Johnson
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:57 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Illogical coding
>
>
> > In fact, just pressing SPLIT should get you to the same
> condition as
> > two
> > A-B taps and pressing SPLIT.
>
> While cross-mode QSOs are not as common on HF as they are on
> 6 meters,
> such an implementation would make them extremely difficult.
>
> The K3 is a complex radio and has its own personality. After
> you spend
> some time with it, you'll probably get to know it quite well.
>
> > I really hope Elecraft will fix this some day.
>
> The changes came about as a result of careful deliberation based on
> input from customers, followed by field testing and
> evaluation of that
> feedback.
>
> We're listening!
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Vic K2VCO

Re: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> I agree with Bob. The "tap dance" for split is very prone to
> error. I can't think of any other transceiver that requires
> two presses of the A->B button to store both mode and frequency.

The K3 previously did copy mode (and other parameters) on the first tap.
But some users felt that they would like to be able to choose whether to
do this. The change added overall flexibility at the cost of an extra
tap. Sure, it's a compromise, like all engineering and software design.

Someday perhaps we'll be able to define macros within the K3 (of course
today it can be done in a rig control program). If I could define a
macro for split, here is what I would do (in CW mode):

Split on
Subrx on
Copy freq and mode to subrx
Set subrx bandwidth to 1 kHz (leave main as is)
Move subrx up 2 kHz

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Phil Salas

Illogical coding

In reply to this post by Robert Ansell

"...Previously, a single tap of the A->B button copied frequency, mode and
filter settings from VFO A to VFO B. Starting with 1.87, two taps are
needed - the first to copy the
frequency, and another to copy mode and filter settings...."

I like it the way it is. I normally have my sub-receiver set to a wider
bandwidth than my main receiver, so I just want to feed frequency info to
the sub-receiver. Let's face it - how difficutl is it to tap twice?

Phil - AD5X

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AC7AC

RE: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by Robert Ansell

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO

Re: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by alsopb

Agreed, this would be an easily fixed "bug" -- just include the
A>B[all] function as part of the results of pressing SPLIT.

However, as a 6-meter operator, I vote for retaining the current
behavior as-is, due to the common occurrence of split-mode (as
opposed to split-frequency) QSOs. You could make the automatic
behavior you desire be a configuration option -- "SPLIT invokes
A>B[all]" or something like that. I can see where an HF DXer would
like it to work that way. However, for my purposes on VHF, I
prefer to have all this stuff manually under my control, as it is
now. Please don't do away with this more flexible capability
altogether!

And as an ancillary comment, I hope the fix for the SSB/CW VFO
offset issue is coming up in the queue Real Soon Now. Been waiting
a long time. :-)

Bill W5WVO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Alsop" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Illogical coding

> Bob,
>
> In fact, just pressing SPLIT should get you to the same
condition as two
> A-B taps and pressing SPLIT.
>
> Miss one of the three steps are you're transmitting on the DX
frequency.
>
> I just don't understand the logic. It isn't if operating split
is a
> rare occurrence.
>
> Those few who want cross band or cross mode splits ought to have
to do
> the extra taps.
>
> I really hope Elecraft will fix this some day. Other rigs have
it right.
>
> Of course there is the $600 solution........
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>
> >In a related vein, the "improvement" introduced in version
1.87/1.69
> >still gets me once in a while. Previously, a single tap of the
A->B
> >button copied frequency, mode and filter settings from VFO A to
VFO B.
> >Starting with 1.87, two taps are needed - the first to copy the
> >frequency, and another to copy mode and filter settings. The
result
> >can be the same as in your case if I go split but forget to tap
A->B
> >twice. No rationale was given for the change, but from a
ergonomics
> >standpoint I never understood why the most common use case was
> >complicated in this way.
> >
> >Bob NW8L
> >
> >On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Robert Ansell
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hi All, I recently had to replace the front panel on my SN
1401 K3 because of a blank display. This just arrived today with
the latest software/firmware dated 9/9/08. All went smoothly and
now I can see the display as it should be. I went through all the
cal and setup routines and all was perfect. I was turning my
attention to the bands and was looking to snag a new country on
cw. I noticed that the station was listening up in frequency so I
engaged a split on VFO B and set the frequency and tried to call
but no action out of my key. I looked at the display and
discovered that I was no longer in QSK only VOX so I hit the QSK
button and VFO B came back and said N/A in the screen! I tried
several times to engage QSK but no way was I going to get the K3
to key. Going back to XIT I was able to snag that guy but here is
where it gets interesting. I called Elecraft and asked what was
going on and Scott had no Idea but asked me what version of manual
I had and discovered that I had an old version C that was over a
year old! I downloaded the newest version of the manual and much
to my surprise there was a note that is not in the earlier version
about B SET that indicated it could be set up in a different mode!
Sure enough that VFO had been set up for SSB and that was why I
could not key the radio. Why on earth if you are in CW on VFO A
and press split would you ever expect that VFO B would ever
default to anything but CW on VFO B!!! This in my opinion is
completely illogical. Can anyone out there give me an explanation
why I should be wrong on this account? I might have been upset if
I didn't go back to XIT to solve the problem but I can just see in
a contest situation where someone was unaware of this that sparks
wouldn't fly. What say you guys!

> >>
> >>Bob Ansell K1WGM
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Elecraft mailing list
> >>Post to: [hidden email]
> >>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> >>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>
> >>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> >>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Elecraft mailing list
> >Post to: [hidden email]
> >You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

Bob Serwy

RE: Illogical coding

Why couldn't this be a configuration setting? The A>B can be set like it is
now (single tap and if needed a second tap)or a single tap would be an
A>B[all]. If this is something you would like to change on a regular basis,
then give the ability to use a PF key to toggle the selection.

Bob Serwy - N9RS

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill W5WVO
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 1:00 PM
To: Brian Alsop; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Illogical coding

Agreed, this would be an easily fixed "bug" -- just include the
A>B[all] function as part of the results of pressing SPLIT.

However, as a 6-meter operator, I vote for retaining the current behavior
as-is, due to the common occurrence of split-mode (as opposed to
split-frequency) QSOs. You could make the automatic behavior you desire be a
configuration option -- "SPLIT invokes
A>B[all]" or something like that. I can see where an HF DXer would
like it to work that way. However, for my purposes on VHF, I prefer to have
all this stuff manually under my control, as it is now. Please don't do away
with this more flexible capability altogether!

And as an ancillary comment, I hope the fix for the SSB/CW VFO offset issue
is coming up in the queue Real Soon Now. Been waiting a long time. :-)

Bill W5WVO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Alsop" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Illogical coding

> Bob,
>
> In fact, just pressing SPLIT should get you to the same
condition as two
> A-B taps and pressing SPLIT.
>
> Miss one of the three steps are you're transmitting on the DX
frequency.
>
> I just don't understand the logic. It isn't if operating split
is a
> rare occurrence.
>
> Those few who want cross band or cross mode splits ought to have
to do
> the extra taps.
>
> I really hope Elecraft will fix this some day. Other rigs have
it right.
>
> Of course there is the $600 solution........
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>
> >In a related vein, the "improvement" introduced in version
1.87/1.69
> >still gets me once in a while. Previously, a single tap of the
A->B
> >button copied frequency, mode and filter settings from VFO A to
VFO B.
> >Starting with 1.87, two taps are needed - the first to copy the
> >frequency, and another to copy mode and filter settings. The
result
> >can be the same as in your case if I go split but forget to tap
A->B
> >twice. No rationale was given for the change, but from a
ergonomics
> >standpoint I never understood why the most common use case was
> >complicated in this way.
> >
> >Bob NW8L
> >
> >On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Robert Ansell
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hi All, I recently had to replace the front panel on my SN
1401 K3 because of a blank display. This just arrived today with
the latest software/firmware dated 9/9/08. All went smoothly and
now I can see the display as it should be. I went through all the
cal and setup routines and all was perfect. I was turning my
attention to the bands and was looking to snag a new country on
cw. I noticed that the station was listening up in frequency so I
engaged a split on VFO B and set the frequency and tried to call
but no action out of my key. I looked at the display and
discovered that I was no longer in QSK only VOX so I hit the QSK
button and VFO B came back and said N/A in the screen! I tried
several times to engage QSK but no way was I going to get the K3
to key. Going back to XIT I was able to snag that guy but here is
where it gets interesting. I called Elecraft and asked what was
going on and Scott had no Idea but asked me what version of manual
I had and discovered that I had an old version C that was over a
year old! I downloaded the newest version of the manual and much
to my surprise there was a note that is not in the earlier version
about B SET that indicated it could be set up in a different mode!
Sure enough that VFO had been set up for SSB and that was why I
could not key the radio. Why on earth if you are in CW on VFO A
and press split would you ever expect that VFO B would ever
default to anything but CW on VFO B!!! This in my opinion is
completely illogical. Can anyone out there give me an explanation
why I should be wrong on this account? I might have been upset if
I didn't go back to XIT to solve the problem but I can just see in
a contest situation where someone was unaware of this that sparks
wouldn't fly. What say you guys!

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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

Vic,

> The K3 previously did copy mode (and other parameters) on the
> first tap.

I'm aware of that. I went thorough the change and am saying I
prefer the old way. If one is storing VOF A data to VFO B the
most likely desired outcome is to change frequency and mode.

> But some users felt that they would like to be able to choose
> whether to do this. The change added overall flexibility at
> the cost of an extra tap.

If a small group of users prefer not to change mode with frequency
make it an option or let them use "B Set, Mode, B set." Otherwise,
make the behavior context sensitive - e.g., if already in split
or dual use the current behavior, if not split use the old form
(set frequency and mode).

> Sure, it's a compromise, like all engineering and software design.

The extra tap is an ergonomic trap for the majority of users not
schooled in "the Elecraft way" and a recipe for "UP LID" if the
second tap is too fast, too slow or too light.

As far as the cross mode stuff ... the "CW in SSB" capability is
ideal for that. It does not require mode shifting and avoids the
"frequency shift" when going from SSB to CW (stay is SSB and
narrow the filters).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vic K2VCO
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:11 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Illogical coding
>
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> >
> > I agree with Bob. The "tap dance" for split is very prone to
> > error. I can't think of any other transceiver that requires
> > two presses of the A->B button to store both mode and frequency.
>
> The K3 previously did copy mode (and other parameters) on the
> first tap.
> But some users felt that they would like to be able to choose
> whether to
> do this. The change added overall flexibility at the cost of an extra
> tap. Sure, it's a compromise, like all engineering and
> software design.
>
> Someday perhaps we'll be able to define macros within the K3
> (of course
> today it can be done in a rig control program). If I could define a
> macro for split, here is what I would do (in CW mode):
>
> Split on
> Subrx on
> Copy freq and mode to subrx
> Set subrx bandwidth to 1 kHz (leave main as is)
> Move subrx up 2 kHz
>
> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco

Vic K2VCO

Re: Illogical coding

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> The K3 previously did copy mode (and other parameters) on the
>> first tap.
>
> I'm aware of that. I went thorough the change and am saying I
> prefer the old way. If one is storing VOF A data to VFO B the
> most likely desired outcome is to change frequency and mode.

Mode is not an issue for me, since I operate 99.999% CW. But along with
mode come the DSP parameters (bandwidth and center frequency). And I
often *don't* want to copy these, because I like to use a wider
bandwidth to listen to the pileup than to the DX.

> If a small group of users prefer not to change mode with frequency
> make it an option or let them use "B Set, Mode, B set." Otherwise,
> make the behavior context sensitive - e.g., if already in split
> or dual use the current behavior, if not split use the old form
> (set frequency and mode).

So what I would have to do is A->B, BSET, twist bandwidth knob, BSET (to
exit BSET mode). No thanks!

> The extra tap is an ergonomic trap for the majority of users not
> schooled in "the Elecraft way" and a recipe for "UP LID" if the
> second tap is too fast, too slow or too light.

'Too fast' is not a problem. 'Too slow' means waiting (I think) two
seconds, which is an eternity. And 'too light' is very hard to do with
the K3's buttons.

I think part of the issue is that the K3 is different from what one is
familiar with, so it takes some getting used to. This in itself isn't a
problem.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Ed Muns, W0YK

RE: Illogical coding

In reply to this post by AC7AC

In all my operating, I want the frequency and mode to transfer, so doing
this with one button tap is ideal. This is the way other radios work.

However, there are other use cases where only the frequency transfer is
desired and the current UI addresses that. Even as a contester concerned
with minimizing UI actions, I'm not greatly hampered by having to tap A>B
twice ... the hardest part is remembering to do so.

73,
Ed - W0YK

> I have a serious aversion to *any* control doing two things
> at the same time, such as changing frequency *and* mode by
> pushing *one* button.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> ...Why on earth if you are in CW on VFO A and press split
> would you ever expect that VFO B would ever default to
> anything but CW on VFO B!!! This in my opinion is completely
> illogical. Can anyone out there give me an explanation why I
> should be wrong on this account? I might have been upset if I
> didn't go back to XIT to solve the problem but I can just see
> in a contest situation where someone was unaware of this that
> sparks wouldn't fly. What say you guys!
>
> Bob Ansell K1WGM