Is DVR audio really getting equalized and compressed?

[Barry]

I started a thread a week or two ago about lackluster audio from the K3,
with the MH2 mic, as heard on GW4BLE's recording of the ARRL SSB test.  
After several responses I am now satisfied with my live audio.

However, as I monitor my audio, the playback via the DVR still sounds
lackluster as compared with live audio.

Questions:
1.  Does the DVR playback audio really pass through TX EQ and audio
compression before being transmitted?
2.  If so, why does it sound so different from live audio, as I hear it
my headphones in TX Test mode?
3.  Is there a separate audio gain setting for the DVR output that I'm
missing?

Tnx,
Barry W2UP


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[Guy, K2AV]

I think a part of the problem is the use of a very indistinct term,
 "lackluster", which could refer to low volume, frequency response, desired
artifacts of compression, etc.  Can you be terribly specific and technical
about what you mean by lackluster?

It has been a measured fact since the middle 20th century, that people do
not hear either highs or lows as well as midrange when the volume is low.
 This lead to the addition of a "loudness" setting in stereo amplifiers
which artificially raised the level of lows and highs to have the same
PERCEPTION of full frequency range at quieter listening levels.  Not
surprisingly some found the sound harsh at higher volumes when the
"loudness" was engaged.

If you have your monitor level set low for DVR playback, and you have normal
human hearing, you WILL hear LESS highs and lows.  Comparison of two results
for sound "spread" and "brightness" must be done at equal volume levels, or
your ears will deceive you.

73, Guy.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I started a thread a week or two ago about lackluster audio from the K3,
> with the MH2 mic, as heard on GW4BLE's recording of the ARRL SSB test.
> After several responses I am now satisfied with my live audio.
>
> However, as I monitor my audio, the playback via the DVR still sounds
> lackluster as compared with live audio.
>
> Questions:
> 1.  Does the DVR playback audio really pass through TX EQ and audio
> compression before being transmitted?
> 2.  If so, why does it sound so different from live audio, as I hear it
> my headphones in TX Test mode?
> 3.  Is there a separate audio gain setting for the DVR output that I'm
> missing?
>
> Tnx,
> Barry W2UP
>
>
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[Barry]

I'm using a subjective term because that is what it SOUNDS like, both in
my monitor and over the air.  I don't have a scope, so all I can go by
is PERCEPTION, which is really the bottom line.  I'm just trying to
figure out why and how to fix it.

I'd be happy to try it on the air with you, or anyone else willing.

73,
Barry W2UP

On 3/26/2011 10:07 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> I think a part of the problem is the use of a very indistinct term,
>  "lackluster", which could refer to low volume, frequency response,
> desired artifacts of compression, etc.  Can you be terribly specific
> and technical about what you mean by lackluster?
>
> It has been a measured fact since the middle 20th century, that people
> do not hear either highs or lows as well as midrange when the volume
> is low.  This lead to the addition of a "loudness" setting in stereo
> amplifiers which artificially raised the level of lows and highs to
> have the same PERCEPTION of full frequency range at quieter listening
> levels.  Not surprisingly some found the sound harsh at higher volumes
> when the "loudness" was engaged.
>
> If you have your monitor level set low for DVR playback, and you have
> normal human hearing, you WILL hear LESS highs and lows.  Comparison
> of two results for sound "spread" and "brightness" must be done at
> equal volume levels, or your ears will deceive you.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Barry <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I started a thread a week or two ago about lackluster audio from
>     the K3,
>     with the MH2 mic, as heard on GW4BLE's recording of the ARRL SSB test.
>     After several responses I am now satisfied with my live audio.
>
>     However, as I monitor my audio, the playback via the DVR still sounds
>     lackluster as compared with live audio.
>
>     Questions:
>     1.  Does the DVR playback audio really pass through TX EQ and audio
>     compression before being transmitted?
>     2.  If so, why does it sound so different from live audio, as I
>     hear it
>     my headphones in TX Test mode?
>     3.  Is there a separate audio gain setting for the DVR output that I'm
>     missing?
>
>     Tnx,
>     Barry W2UP
>
>
>     ______________________________________________________________
>     Elecraft mailing list
>     Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>     Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>     Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
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>
>

--

Barry Kutner, W2UP             Lakewood, CO

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[K1LI]

Barry,

I just went through the process of setting up my K3 with a new mic. I had the same question, re: DVR vs. "live" mic audio, so I tried an on-air test. Receiving stations couldn't tell the difference between the mic and the DVR audio.

73 -- Brian -- K1LI

[Gary Gregory]

*
Brian

This is correct.*
*
*
*The DVR is 'Post' EQ settings etc.*
*
*
*73's*
*
*
*Gary*
*
*
On 27 March 2011 22:04, K1LI <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Barry,
>
> I just went through the process of setting up my K3 with a new mic. I had
> the same question, re: DVR vs. "live" mic audio, so I tried an on-air test.
> Receiving stations couldn't tell the difference between the mic and the DVR
> audio.
>
> 73 -- Brian -- K1LI
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Is-DVR-audio-really-getting-equalized-and-compressed-tp6210714p6212208.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

--

*VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!*
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[Barry]

K1LI wrote

Barry,

I just went through the process of setting up my K3 with a new mic. I had the same question, re: DVR vs. "live" mic audio, so I tried an on-air test. Receiving stations couldn't tell the difference between the mic and the DVR audio.

73 -- Brian -- K1LI

Thanks for the info, Brian.

When you listen to your own audio in the MON, do they sound the same to you?
Tnx,
Barry W2UP

[K1LI]

Barry,

I believe that the sound that gets to your ears through your head limits the use of the headphone monitor when judging the quality of your transmitted audio. A good example of this is how different your own voice sounds when you hear it on a tape recorder.

Brian K1LI

[daleputnam]

Monitor audio, can be used very effectively for many, non critical adjustments, however, the "near to same time" hearing of what you say vs what your headphones say... can, with some folks cause a bit of confusion, or "distortion" of the facts.
If critical measurements need be made, one suggestion would be use a scope. The compression, and equalization can be measured effectively, and one can stay clear away from not nice things like splatter and "too wide" complaints.
Have a great day,

--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy


 

> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 07:13:00 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Is DVR audio really getting equalized and compressed?
>
> Barry,
>
> I believe that the sound that gets to your ears through your head limits the
> use of the headphone monitor when judging the quality of your transmitted
> audio. A good example of this is how different your own voice sounds when
> you hear it on a tape recorder.
>
> Brian K1LI
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Is-DVR-audio-really-getting-equalized-and-compressed-tp6210714p6215147.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

     
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

  One way to avoid that "hearing" problem is to record your voice on an
external device (computer, tape recorder, etc.) and then play the
recording (using line in on the K3 rather than a microphone) to be able
to listen to the monitor and make your evaluations and/or equalization
and compression adjustments.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/28/2011 10:13 AM, K1LI wrote:
> Barry,
>
> I believe that the sound that gets to your ears through your head limits the
> use of the headphone monitor when judging the quality of your transmitted
> audio. A good example of this is how different your own voice sounds when
> you hear it on a tape recorder.
>
> Brian K1LI
>
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[Guy, K2AV]

Barry,

For the record, what I hear in the DVR is what I get. The DVR plus MON
output in the speakers is particularly good at telling how you will
sound.  And until now, that has been the only post-learning-curve
opinion of the DVR that I have ever heard.  That is why, taken with
your friends' over the air assessment (indicating that the DVR is
working properly), I suspect this has something to do with your
perception of how all the pieces work together.  Your friends' "taste"
in voice could simply vary from yours, you deem the same audio "soft"
and they don't.

But first try this procedure, and see what happens. This is designed
to get a contest voice at a contest operating level and shape it for
best effect.  It also steers around points where things can get messed
up.  If you want to get "in the neighborhood" with your CMP and TX EQ
settings using MON and listening in phones at the same time, go ahead.
 But finish off with the procedure below.

===============================

Go into CONFIG:TX DVR and set it to "Ind". If you don't have the TX
DVR option, you will need to upgrade firmware.

Set MODE to LSB or USB on a band that currently has loud SSB signals.
Tune in a busy frequency. Set AGC to fast, RF gain to max and AF gain
to your normal listening level.  Leave this audio up and running
during the entire procedure.  If the frequency goes quiet, go find
another busy one.  This is to keep your speaking voice unconsciously
calibrated to "talking in a noisy cafeteria".

If the left lower bar is showing SWR & RF instead of CMP & ALC, do a
"hold" on METER to get CMP & ALC.

Do a "hold" on MON.  With TX DVR set to "Ind", this "hold" will be a
toggle between MON and DVR. Set DVR to 20 to start and MON to 0
(zero).

Tap SPEED/MIC to get MIC and tap CMP/PWR to get CMP. Set CMP to 10 to start.

"Hold" TEST to place rig in test mode.  Make SURE you get the flashing
TX, especially for this procedure.

Write down what you are going to say for the recording and put it in
front of you. Many people will speak better, with an un-self-conscious
full voice, when speaking from a script, better than they will
speaking without a script.  At this point do not worry about making
the recording with the right compression or TX equalizer settings.

Key the mike and read the script to match your speaking volume with
what you were hearing on the frequency.  During the reading advance
the MIC gain so that you get 5-7 segments on the ALC scale.  If you
cannot get 5-7 segments, it will be a mike settings issue of some
sort.  Come back to this procedure after you have remedied the
problem.  Repeat this while adjusting mic gain so that your reading
voice, at the same level as the radio conversation, gets 5-7 segments
on the ALC with your mic gain setting.

Write down this MIC setting. You should use it any time you are using
this microphone, and then use the ALC segments at 5-7 to keep your
voice at level.  Leave the MIC at this setting.  When you are
transmitting after this, raise or lower your voice to get the 5-7
segments on the ALC.

Listen to the chatter on frequency to recalibrate your hearing. Tap
REC, tap M1, read the memory text at a normal full voice using 5-7 ALC
segments to set your level. Tap M1 to end.  My MH2 and the K3 do not
require PTT to be asserted to record.  Recording begins with the first
tap on M1, ends with the second tap on M1.

Now replay the DVR by tapping M1. Use "hold" on MON to get to the DVR
setting. Adjust the DVR and repeat the playback so your voice playback
has the same volume as the SSB conversation.  This is important so
that your hearing of the playback is not biased by "loudness"
frequency response issues

Now repeat the record/playback cycle as many times as needed,
adjusting TX equalizer and CMP before recording to get your desired TX
voice sound. Remember to turn off the EQ display by tapping menu after
setting each time. You may find that it starts to sound louder. If so
reduce DVR to keep the playback at the same volume as the SSB on
frequency.  Note that the effects of MIC, CMP and TX EQ are ONLY
asserted in the recording.  These have no effect when playing back the
recording for transmit.  PWR will set the PEP output when transmitted.

CMP should be advanced until you hear something that sounds like fuzz
or distortion, then reduce it by 4 or 5 so you don't hear any fuzz or
distortion. Adjust TX equalizer settings until your voice sounds
"sharp" or brilliant while the lows are "moderate" to keep from
sounding "tinny".  Once you have this sound, leave MIC, CMP, DVR, and
TX EQ alone.

This will be a more accurate method than listening via MON in headsets
while you are talking, particularly in hearing the effects from too
much CMP, or too much high emphasis. You should be able to set your
processed voice for a rich high silibant content (brightness) with
just enough lows to "sound right" and CMP a bit lower than adds what
sounds like distortion to your signal.

When you have this, the MIC gain, CMP setting, TX equalizer should be
retained for regular operation.

===============================

Done this way, the K3 processed voice is superior to RF clipping and
has maximum punch and power level without bandwidth problems.

If you are using the RX EQ to make the RX audio "extra sharp" to
improve hearing the syllibant portion of RX voice (I do), or to
compensate for hearing issues (that may be what I am actually doing),
the DVR playback will NOT have this added brightness.  This is done so
playback of an off-the-air DVR recording is played back to the sender
with NO ADJUSTMENTS WHATSOEVER, and is exactly what is received.

Hope this has helped some.

73, Guy.
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[DL5OCD]

Wow,

these are very confusing answers. I have had the same question and talked to Lyle (the DSP Guru).
But now to your questions:

1.  Does the DVR playback audio really pass through TX EQ and audio
compression before being transmitted?

YES, IT DOES !!!

2.  If so, why does it sound so different from live audio, as I hear it
my headphones in TX Test mode?

See answer 1.

3.  Is there a separate audio gain setting for the DVR output that I'm
missing?

No, but maybe it comes up in the future...

73
Michael

[N6JW]

Hi Michael:

Thanks for helping clarify some of the confusion.  Unfortunately, you
have perhaps (inadvertently) added some of your own.

Lyle ("the DSP guru") has commented on these questions in several
places.  Perhaps none more clearly as here (from Nov 16, 2010):

> 1.  Does the TX EQ apply to what I record in the DVR,
>>no
> or does it apply when the DVR plays back into the TX?
>>yes
> 2.  When I play the DVR back, does the monitor signal
>reflect whatever TX EQ I set?
>>If fastmon is not enabled, yes.
> 3.  Is it also conditioned by my RX EQ settings?
>>no
> 4.  If I record someone off the air, does my RX EQ settings affect what
> is recorded?
>>yes
> 5.  If I play the recording back to him, is my TX EQ applied to it?
>>yes
>>
>>73,
>>Lyle KK7P

See--
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/DVR-Questions-td5745943.html#a5746002

From the above, one can now further elaborate on the three original
questions, as follows:

>1.  Does the DVR playback audio really pass through TX EQ and audio
>compression before being transmitted?
>
>YES, IT DOES !!!

Correct.

>2.  If so, why does it sound so different from live audio, as I hear it
>my headphones in TX Test mode?
>
>See answer 1.

Confusing.  For all practical purposes the DVR output and live audio
should be indistinguishable, AS LONG AS, you are using the same
mic (and element for those with two) that you used to make the
recording.  I have confirmed this multiple times in actual on the air
use.  This has also been confirmed by other posters.

>3.  Is there a separate audio gain setting for the DVR output that I'm
>missing?
>
>No, but maybe it comes up in the future...

Potential for confusion here.  If the question is "TX gain setting, like
mike gain" the answer is no.  But in my experience there is NO need
for such a setting.  Reason being, the DVR produces an exact digital
copy of what your mike produced when recording it; and when playing
back the DVR signal is injected at EXACTLY the same point in the TX
chain that the mike is.  This is why the output should be indistinguishable.

On the other hand, if the original question is asking about the playback
audio heard in your headphones or speakers (like as is the case with the
monitor audio), then the right (up-to-date) answer is YES.  This feature
was added back in FW 4.12 [current FW is 4.25 production release, and
FW 4.31 beta, I believe]  Monitor and DVR playback audio levels are
independently adjustable.  See Revision Notes for instructions on use.

Hope this helps,

73

John, N6JW

DL5OCD wrote

Wow,

these are very confusing answers. I have had the same question and talked to Lyle (the DSP Guru).
But now to your questions:

1.  Does the DVR playback audio really pass through TX EQ and audio
compression before being transmitted?

YES, IT DOES !!!

2.  If so, why does it sound so different from live audio, as I hear it
my headphones in TX Test mode?

See answer 1.

3.  Is there a separate audio gain setting for the DVR output that I'm
missing?

No, but maybe it comes up in the future...

73
Michael

[k6dgw]

Like some other threads, I'm baffled by this one.  I installed the
KDVR3.  I recorded some stuff from my Heil headset/boom mic I got from
Elecraft [iC element I think, plugged into the back jack] without
messing around with any of my audio settings.  I played them back in TX
TEST mode, and they sounded like I sound to myself in the monitor audio,
including audio levels.  I played them for a nearby buddy and talked to
him.  He couldn't tell the difference.  In the WPX SSB last weekend, I
got 3 unsolicited "Great audio" reports, one from 9K.

I have my TX EQ set as Jim, K9YC, has posted here several times, strong
low cut and moderate high boost.  I'm nearly deaf, so I have my RX EQ
for SSB set to try to approximate the shape of my digital hearing
aids.   It doesn't have near the gain they do, but it does help.  I have
recorded off-the air [same buddy], and played it back to him on the air,
both with my normal TX EQ and with it flat.  He can definitely tell the
difference.

As I said, I'm baffled by this thread.  My KDVR3 was literally "plug and
play."  I first used it in the ARRL SS for the static part of my
exchange and CQ.  Several people said [unsolicited], "nice to hear
recorded audio that sounds like you do."  If there's a separate gain
control for it in the latest firmware, that's OK, I'll just ignore it.

73,

Fred K6DGW
Auburn CA

On 3/30/2011 10:59 PM, N6JW wrote:
> Hi Michael:
>
> Thanks for helping clarify some of the confusion.  Unfortunately, you
> have perhaps (inadvertently) added some of your own.

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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[DL5OCD]

Hi John,

thanks for clarification. But i think he meant the adjustment of levels (KDVR3) for "on the air" playback.
These levels are NOT adjustable, for the monitoring in the headphones or speakers you are right.

73
Michael

[Barry]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Barry]

Ron
Are you saying the MONitored audio from the DVR, which is heard in the headphones, is pre-compression and EQ, i.e., not what's going out over the air?
Barry W2UP

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote

It all depends upon how much you change the sound of the audio using the Eq
and Compression. If you don't make any obvious changes, your Monitor and
On-Air audio from the KDVR3 will sound the same. But, if you are using heavy
compression or significant equalization, you'll hear the impact of those
setting on the air, but not listening to your recorded message.

Ron AC7AC

[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

 > Are you saying the MONitored audio from the DVR, which is heard in the
 > headphones, is pre-compression and EQ, i.e., not what's going out over
 > the air?

It depends on your monitor settings.  If you have selected "fast
monitor" you are hearing pre-DSP (no EQ and no compression).  If
you have normal monitor, you will hear "post-DSP" audio (modulation
audio).

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


-----Original Message-----

> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Barry
> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 7:12 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Is DVR audio really getting equalized and
> compressed?
>
> Ron
> Are you saying the MONitored audio from the DVR, which is heard in the
> headphones, is pre-compression and EQ, i.e., not what's going out over
> the air?
> Barry W2UP
>
> On 3/30/2011 9:10 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire [via Elecraft] wrote:
>> It all depends upon how much you change the sound of the audio using
>> the Eq
>> and Compression. If you don't make any obvious changes, your Monitor and
>> On-Air audio from the KDVR3 will sound the same. But, if you are using
>> heavy
>> compression or significant equalization, you'll hear the impact of those
>> setting on the air, but not listening to your recorded message.
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> Like some other threads, I'm baffled by this one.  I installed the
>> KDVR3.  I recorded some stuff from my Heil headset/boom mic I got from
>> Elecraft [iC element I think, plugged into the back jack] without
>> messing around with any of my audio settings.  I played them back in TX
>> TEST mode, and they sounded like I sound to myself in the monitor audio,
>> including audio levels.  I played them for a nearby buddy and talked to
>> him.  He couldn't tell the difference.  In the WPX SSB last weekend, I
>> got 3 unsolicited "Great audio" reports, one from 9K.
>>
>> I have my TX EQ set as Jim, K9YC, has posted here several times, strong
>> low cut and moderate high boost.  I'm nearly deaf, so I have my RX EQ
>> for SSB set to try to approximate the shape of my digital hearing
>> aids.   It doesn't have near the gain they do, but it does help.  I have
>> recorded off-the air [same buddy], and played it back to him on the air,
>> both with my normal TX EQ and with it flat.  He can definitely tell the
>> difference.
>>
>> As I said, I'm baffled by this thread.  My KDVR3 was literally "plug and
>> play."  I first used it in the ARRL SS for the static part of my
>> exchange and CQ.  Several people said [unsolicited], "nice to hear
>> recorded audio that sounds like you do."  If there's a separate gain
>> control for it in the latest firmware, that's OK, I'll just ignore it.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred K6DGW
>> Auburn CA
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