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Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

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harry weston

Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Hello

Sorry if this question has already been answered elsewhere. I built a K2 in
2002 and a Kx1 in 2004. My idea of delight now is a kit of parts and a hot
iron. I'd like to have a go at a KX3 if it is a kit, and to suggest that it
could be supplied in three forms. !) fully assembled 2) as a kit with the SMDs
already assembled, and 3) for those, like me, who are confident with soldering
SMDs, with only the components (like BGAs) you can't fix with a soldering iron
already in place. I'd love to go for 3) -- any chance?

Best wishes all and 73, Harry Weston M1ETU and M0SOP
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Harry,

I would say "not a chance" of getting your KX3 kit with SMDs in a bag.
Just take a look at the support questions that occur with those kits
using thru-hole construction, and then imagine the number of support
questions that would occur if some of the general ham population tried
to assemble an SMD kit. Requests for extra parts because some had been
launched into "never-never land" with tweezers too tightly held would
increase the Elecraft mailing expense significantly.

I expect the labor required to kit such an assembly would be more than
they are paying the board houses for assembled boards.

While it might be interesting and fun for a few, it just is not cost
effective.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/3/2011 7:15 AM, harry weston wrote:

> Hello
>
> Sorry if this question has already been answered elsewhere. I built a K2 in
> 2002 and a Kx1 in 2004. My idea of delight now is a kit of parts and a hot
> iron. I'd like to have a go at a KX3 if it is a kit, and to suggest that it
> could be supplied in three forms. !) fully assembled 2) as a kit with the SMDs
> already assembled, and 3) for those, like me, who are confident with soldering
> SMDs, with only the components (like BGAs) you can't fix with a soldering iron
> already in place. I'd love to go for 3) -- any chance?
>
> Best wishes all and 73, Harry Weston M1ETU and M0SOP
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Matt Zilmer

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Also, note that one of the main advantages to SMT is process control.
Parts can be placed and soldered VERY accurately.

Hand-soldering SMT, even large components like 2012's is much less
well controlled than the design might need to function properly. And
some of the KX3 components are in the "tiny" category (generally 0402
and smaller is too fine to work by hand).

73,
matt W6NIA

On Fri, 03 Jun 2011 09:27:57 -0400, you wrote:

> Harry,
>
>I would say "not a chance" of getting your KX3 kit with SMDs in a bag.
>Just take a look at the support questions that occur with those kits
>using thru-hole construction, and then imagine the number of support
>questions that would occur if some of the general ham population tried
>to assemble an SMD kit. Requests for extra parts because some had been
>launched into "never-never land" with tweezers too tightly held would
>increase the Elecraft mailing expense significantly.
>
>I expect the labor required to kit such an assembly would be more than
>they are paying the board houses for assembled boards.
>
>While it might be interesting and fun for a few, it just is not cost
>effective.
>
>73,
>Don W3FPR
>
>On 6/3/2011 7:15 AM, harry weston wrote:
>> Hello
>>
>> Sorry if this question has already been answered elsewhere. I built a K2 in
>> 2002 and a Kx1 in 2004. My idea of delight now is a kit of parts and a hot
>> iron. I'd like to have a go at a KX3 if it is a kit, and to suggest that it
>> could be supplied in three forms. !) fully assembled 2) as a kit with the SMDs
>> already assembled, and 3) for those, like me, who are confident with soldering
>> SMDs, with only the components (like BGAs) you can't fix with a soldering iron
>> already in place. I'd love to go for 3) -- any chance?
>>
>> Best wishes all and 73, Harry Weston M1ETU and M0SOP
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
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Johnny Siu

Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

I would agree with Don.

Perhaps, even Elecraft offered a SMD-kit at a price 3 times of the assembled version, it might not be good enough to earn a reasonable business profit in view of the possible manpower involved. Perhaps, only through hole components kits can maintain some profits.

TNX & 73,

Johnny VR2XMC

從︰ Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ harry weston <[hidden email]>
副本(CC)︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2011年06月3日 (週五) 9:27 PM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Harry,

I would say "not a chance" of getting your KX3 kit with SMDs in a bag.
Just take a look at the support questions that occur with those kits
using thru-hole construction, and then imagine the number of support
questions that would occur if some of the general ham population tried
to assemble an SMD kit. Requests for extra parts because some had been
launched into "never-never land" with tweezers too tightly held would
increase the Elecraft mailing expense significantly.

I expect the labor required to kit such an assembly would be more than
they are paying the board houses for assembled boards.

While it might be interesting and fun for a few, it just is not cost
effective.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/3/2011 7:15 AM, harry weston wrote:

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P.B. Christensen

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

> Perhaps, even Elecraft offered a SMD-kit at a price 3 times of the
> assembled version, it might not be good enough to earn a reasonable
> business profit in view of the possible manpower involved. Perhaps, only
> through hole components kits can maintain some profits.

Another issue is the attrition that occurs when attempting an SMD kit. For
this reason, many SMD kits are either not started, or they're abandoned
shortly after commencement of construction. I've purchased several SMD kits
on the used market where perhaps 5% of the kit is completed, and some have
been poorly constructed.

In the case of a kit like a KX3 that involves many SMD parts, it would
undoubtedly lead to many unfinished kits and some very unhappy customers,
most of whom are not good with personal due-diligence. Even though that
onus is on the buyer to find what they're up against before the purchase,
some people will resent the kit supplier when they're left with a box full
of some very expensive parts and few takers who are willing to finish a
previously-started kit at a fair price.

Paul, W9AC

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Ken Alexander-2

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Wayne (or maybe it was Eric) already announced that the KX3 would be available as a no-solder "final assembly" type of kit, or fully assembled, just like the K3.

I already have two Softrock receiver kits that I've just about given up on because of multiple problems trying to install surface mount components. Something as complex as a KX3 would have me in tears before I finished unpacking it!!

And by the way, if anyone here has experience with Softrock kits and could complete my kits for a modest fee, I'd be interested in hearing from you.

73,

Ken Alexander,
VE3HLS

--- On Fri, 6/3/11, Paul Christensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Paul Christensen <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?
To: [hidden email]
Date: Friday, June 3, 2011, 11:44 AM

> Perhaps, even Elecraft offered a SMD-kit at a price 3 times of the
> assembled version, it might not be good enough to earn a reasonable
> business profit in view of the possible manpower involved. Perhaps, only
> through hole components kits can maintain some profits.

Another issue is the attrition that occurs when attempting an SMD kit. For
this reason, many SMD kits are either not started, or they're abandoned
shortly after commencement of construction. I've purchased several SMD kits
on the used market where perhaps 5% of the kit is completed, and some have
been poorly constructed.

In the case of a kit like a KX3 that involves many SMD parts, it would
undoubtedly lead to many unfinished kits and some very unhappy customers,
most of whom are not good with personal due-diligence. Even though that
onus is on the buyer to find what they're up against before the purchase,
some people will resent the kit supplier when they're left with a box full
of some very expensive parts and few takers who are willing to finish a
previously-started kit at a fair price.

Paul, W9AC

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Jack Smith-6

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

In reply to this post by P.B. Christensen

As a very small designer and seller of kits, I've been forced to move
almost all of my new designs and updated older designs to surface mount
construction. Through hole parts are either drying up, and, more
importantly, high performance parts are not made in through hole packages.

So far, I've been able to keep kits in the "reasonable to assemble"
category by:

1. Passive components 1206 size.
2. Integrated circuits pin spacing 0.05/inch (20 pins per inch) or
larger spacing.
3. Transistors SOT-89 where possible

These are all manageable without too much in terms of special tools. A
good headband magnifier, 0.015" diameter solder and a small tip
soldering iron is about it.

As a price point, I have some commercial products I sell as assembled,
and I can have small quantities of PCBs made, with all surface mount
parts machine placed and soldered for only a few dollars more than the
price of the parts - it's not far from the point where I wonder whether
it makes sense to offer anything more than "screwdriver" kits where the
purchaser does mechanical assembly and perhaps installs a few through
hole parts, such as connectors. I've received prices in the $5/board
range for machine assembly of only 100 boards, each board with about 100
parts, plus a one-time charge for solder paste stencil. I've hand
assembled a few of these boards during prototyping and development, and
it takes me about 3 hours.

Jack K8ZOA

On 6/3/2011 11:44 AM, Paul Christensen wrote:

>> Perhaps, even Elecraft offered a SMD-kit at a price 3 times of the
>> assembled version, it might not be good enough to earn a reasonable
>> business profit in view of the possible manpower involved. Perhaps, only
>> through hole components kits can maintain some profits.
> Another issue is the attrition that occurs when attempting an SMD kit. For
> this reason, many SMD kits are either not started, or they're abandoned
> shortly after commencement of construction. I've purchased several SMD kits
> on the used market where perhaps 5% of the kit is completed, and some have
> been poorly constructed.
>
> In the case of a kit like a KX3 that involves many SMD parts, it would
> undoubtedly lead to many unfinished kits and some very unhappy customers,
> most of whom are not good with personal due-diligence. Even though that
> onus is on the buyer to find what they're up against before the purchase,
> some people will resent the kit supplier when they're left with a box full
> of some very expensive parts and few takers who are willing to finish a
> previously-started kit at a fair price.
>
> Paul, W9AC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

Mike Morrow-3

Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

In reply to this post by harry weston

Jack wrote:

> I wonder whether it makes sense to offer anything more than "screwdriver"
> kits where the purchaser does mechanical assembly and perhaps installs a
> few through hole parts, such as connectors.

Indeed. SMD components are specifically designed solely for efficient
automated machine assembly. Human part-by-part assembly of SMD circuits
is a gross misapplication of the design. A complex SMD kit, lovingly
assembled by a skilled builder, would almost certainly *still* be
technically inferior to the machine-assembled equivalent. From a circuit
quality standpoint there is *nothing* good about human assembly of SMD
circuits. At the other extreme, a "screwdriver-only" semi-kit can easily
be the quality of a factory-assembled version.

Two extremes...I'll take the latter, and always reject the former.

Mike / KK5F
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

On 6/3/2011 10:45 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:
> At the other extreme, a "screwdriver-only" semi-kit can easily
> be the quality of a factory-assembled version.

This is especially true if the boards are individually tested prior to
shipment, as they are at Elecraft.

73, Jim K9YC
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Tony Estep

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

In reply to this post by Jack Smith-6

You guys are killing me with this gloomy talk about SMDs. Just last night I
ordered a Softrock. From reading the assembly manual I can see that this is
a long-tailed project, but I'm determined to remain optimistic. My intention
is to use it as an interface for CW Skimmer, taking IF out the back of my
P3. We shall see...

If I ever get it to work, I'll report back here.

Tony KT0NY
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Ken Lea

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

In reply to this post by harry weston

You guys are killing me with this gloomy talk about SMDs. Just last night ...

Tony,
I recently assembled a NUE-PSK modem. It is pretty much all SMD. It wasn't
all that bad to build. I'm 55 years old so my eyes aren't what they used to be.

I didn't need any 'exotic' tools, just one of those illuminated headgear type
magnifiers, an illuminated 20X loupe (got that sweet baby at American
Science & Surplus) and a temperature controlled soldering iron -- I have some
off brand that I got at Fry's.

Search youtube for some videos on how to solder SMD's.

The trick is the rosin; it is kind of sticky. You glop up the board with that,
stick the part on there. Verify with the loupe. Then ... here's the odd thing:
put the solder on the iron then touch the iron on the part's pin/leg whatever.

Works like a champ. The videos show you how to fix things like bridging solder where you don't need it.
I read some QST article (I think) about how to convert a toaster oven to do
mass soldering of SMD parts but that seems like overkill, especially if you're
only building one board.

Good Luck and 73,
Ken
K9LEA
KX1 & K1 ... so far

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wayne burdick

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Administrator

In reply to this post by Tony Estep

The KX3 has hundreds of SMDs. Many of them are so small that I need a
magnifying glass just to find them. Soldering them by hand is tedious
and fraught with peril (all of us on the team do it, but we don't
enjoy it).

A full kit would be impossible to support and not profitable. Sorry
about that.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Jun 3, 2011, at 11:25 AM, Tony Estep wrote:

> You guys are killing me with this gloomy talk about SMDs. Just last
> night I
> ordered a Softrock. From reading the assembly manual I can see that
> this is
> a long-tailed project, but I'm determined to remain optimistic. My
> intention
> is to use it as an interface for CW Skimmer, taking IF out the back
> of my
> P3. We shall see...
>
> If I ever get it to work, I'll report back here.
>
> Tony KT0NY
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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wayne burdick

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Administrator

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Kit and assembled will work exactly alike, just as with a K3.

Wayne
N6KR

On Jun 3, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 6/3/2011 10:45 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>> At the other extreme, a "screwdriver-only" semi-kit can easily
>> be the quality of a factory-assembled version.
>
> This is especially true if the boards are individually tested prior to
> shipment, as they are at Elecraft.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
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~BG~

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Do you guys do all the SMD soldering by hand? I'd be guessing that the
current volumes shipped you guys would've been able to invest in a placement
machine. Small ones have been becoming reasonable affordable these days
(e.g. small outfits like Adafruit have been using one some their higher
volume Arduino kits and accessories).

./Ben

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The KX3 has hundreds of SMDs. Many of them are so small that I need a
> magnifying glass just to find them. Soldering them by hand is tedious
> and fraught with peril (all of us on the team do it, but we don't
> enjoy it).
>
> A full kit would be impossible to support and not profitable. Sorry
> about that.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> On Jun 3, 2011, at 11:25 AM, Tony Estep wrote:
>
> > You guys are killing me with this gloomy talk about SMDs. Just last
> > night I
> > ordered a Softrock. From reading the assembly manual I can see that
> > this is
> > a long-tailed project, but I'm determined to remain optimistic. My
> > intention
> > is to use it as an interface for CW Skimmer, taking IF out the back
> > of my
> > P3. We shall see...
> >
> > If I ever get it to work, I'll report back here.
> >
> > Tony KT0NY
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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wayne burdick

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Administrator

All of our SMD soldering is fully automated.

Wayne

On Jun 3, 2011, at 6:31 PM, ~BG~ wrote:

> Do you guys do all the SMD soldering by hand? I'd be guessing that
> the
> current volumes shipped you guys would've been able to invest in a
> placement
> machine. Small ones have been becoming reasonable affordable these
> days
> (e.g. small outfits like Adafruit have been using one some their
> higher
> volume Arduino kits and accessories).
>
>
> ./Ben
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> The KX3 has hundreds of SMDs. Many of them are so small that I need a
>> magnifying glass just to find them. Soldering them by hand is tedious
>> and fraught with peril (all of us on the team do it, but we don't
>> enjoy it).
>>
>> A full kit would be impossible to support and not profitable. Sorry
>> about that.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>> On Jun 3, 2011, at 11:25 AM, Tony Estep wrote:
>>
>>> You guys are killing me with this gloomy talk about SMDs. Just last
>>> night I
>>> ordered a Softrock. From reading the assembly manual I can see that
>>> this is
>>> a long-tailed project, but I'm determined to remain optimistic. My
>>> intention
>>> is to use it as an interface for CW Skimmer, taking IF out the back
>>> of my
>>> P3. We shall see...
>>>
>>> If I ever get it to work, I'll report back here.
>>>
>>> Tony KT0NY
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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wayne burdick

Re: Is the KX3 going to be sold as a kit?

Administrator

I should add that all of our leaded-part soldering is automated, too,
except when customers do the assembly.

Wayne

On Jun 3, 2011, at 6:34 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> All of our SMD soldering is fully automated.
>
> Wayne
>
> On Jun 3, 2011, at 6:31 PM, ~BG~ wrote:
>
>> Do you guys do all the SMD soldering by hand? I'd be guessing that
>> the
>> current volumes shipped you guys would've been able to invest in a
>> placement
>> machine. Small ones have been becoming reasonable affordable these
>> days
>> (e.g. small outfits like Adafruit have been using one some their
>> higher
>> volume Arduino kits and accessories).
>>
>>
>> ./Ben
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The KX3 has hundreds of SMDs. Many of them are so small that I
>>> need a
>>> magnifying glass just to find them. Soldering them by hand is
>>> tedious
>>> and fraught with peril (all of us on the team do it, but we don't
>>> enjoy it).
>>>
>>> A full kit would be impossible to support and not profitable. Sorry
>>> about that.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>> On Jun 3, 2011, at 11:25 AM, Tony Estep wrote:
>>>
>>>> You guys are killing me with this gloomy talk about SMDs. Just last
>>>> night I
>>>> ordered a Softrock. From reading the assembly manual I can see that
>>>> this is
>>>> a long-tailed project, but I'm determined to remain optimistic. My
>>>> intention
>>>> is to use it as an interface for CW Skimmer, taking IF out the back
>>>> of my
>>>> P3. We shall see...
>>>>
>>>> If I ever get it to work, I'll report back here.
>>>>
>>>> Tony KT0NY
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>>>
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>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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