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Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

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KV5J

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

OTOH. Last I checked my K3 can be set to transmit ESSB 4.0Khz wide.
But it can't be set to transmit SSB at 2.3khz wide.

Keith

Bill Turner

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped)

On 4/27/2014 3:44 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> RTTY is an old outdated digital mode and severs only one thing these days.
> Contesting.

REPLY:

Did you forget DXing? Nearly all DXPeditions, if they operate digital at
all, choose RTTY as their only digital mode.

73, Bill W6WRT

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

It's also the most popular digital mode for DXing and still provides
better S/N under weak signal conditions than all but some modulation
methods with heavy redundancy/error correction.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/27/2014 6:44 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

> RTTY is an old outdated digital mode and severs only one thing these days.
> Contesting.
>
>
>
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Is-there-a-reason-the-receive-is-so-Skinny-tp7587977p7588006.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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riese-k3djc

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by The Wizard

A friend of mine has a flex and can vary his transmitter BW
we ran some tests
and as I told Dick,, if ur gonna chase DX as you narrow your
signal to 2 K or so with the same mike gain etc really gives you punch
with better average power but no increase in distortion,, well not much
observing it on the P3
taking it much less than that does cause distortion bad sounding audio
but if you know any folk with a flex get them to do the same test
interesting to observe on the P3
Dick still likes to use ESSB but not when 75 is very active

long thread fer sure

HAR

Bob K3DJC

>
> The FCC rules say that an amateur station is to limit the bandwidth
> to
> that necessary for communications, and that is generally accepted as
> a
> 2.8 kHz bandwidth for voice communications.
>
> For what purpose? To sound like a broadcast station? I do not see
> the
> merit in that since amateur radio should be more concerned with
> communications effectiveness which means reducing the low frequency
>
> content and transmitting within a 2.8 kHz bandwidth.

KV5J

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by Bill Turner

Only because of the need for speed not because it's the best digital mode.

Keith

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

CW is an old outdated digital mode, one that is usually spoken of with
great reverence by those who practice it.

AM is an outdated voice mode but I get why people still use AM.

Don't know why I have a key or a microphone for my KX3, I greatly prefer
keyboard modes.

I have the deepest respect for those who continue to keep the traditions
alive, and I recognize their skill.

... and I repeat my call for a little more courtesy between operators,
on and off the air.

73 -- Lynn

On 4/27/2014 3:44 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> RTTY is an old outdated digital mode

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KV5J

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by riese-k3djc

I've been asking for the ability to narrow the transmit bandwidth on the K3
for years. That would make a better contest radio.
But alas all I hear is it's on the list.

Keith

A friend of mine has a flex and can vary his transmitter BW
we ran some tests
and as I told Dick,, if ur gonna chase DX as you narrow your
signal to 2 K or so with the same mike gain etc really gives you punch
with better average power but no increase in distortion,, well not much
observing it on the P3
taking it much less than that does cause distortion bad sounding audio
but if you know any folk with a flex get them to do the same test
interesting to observe on the P3
Dick still likes to use ESSB but not when 75 is very active

long thread fer sure

HAR

Bob K3DJC

NK7Z

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

Keith,

Respectfully, I think you missed an important part of Joe's post. The
rules state-- that for the mode used, not the least broad mode, nor the
narrowest mode possible, but for the mode being used...

97.307(a):
No amateur station transmission shall occupy more bandwidth
than necessary for the information rate and EMISSION TYPE BEING
TRANSMITTED, in accordance with good amateur practice.

I added the caps for emphasis. So this entire discussion hangs on the
question-- is ESSB the same mode as SSB. If it is, then it is not
legal, very simple. If ESSB is a different mode than SSB, than this
discussion path proves nothing.

I am very interested in the answer to this questions as well as a few
others are I expect. I just don't know where to find a list of FCC
accepted mode definitions. If ESSB is not address in the list, then I
believe it would fall under SSB, and as such not be legal.

--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sun, 2014-04-27 at 14:57 -0700, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

> Joe,
>
> Because there are other narrower digital modes that can do the same thing.
> RTTY uses much bandwidth. Just like you claim ESSB uses to much.
>
> Keith, K5ENS
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Is-there-a-reason-the-receive-is-so-Skinny-tp7587977p7588002.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

If you use K9YC's suggested EQ you will be very close to 2.3/2.4 KHz
audio - particularly if 400 and 3200 are set to -16 dB. Try it ...

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/27/2014 7:41 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

>
> I've been asking for the ability to narrow the transmit bandwidth on the K3
> for years. That would make a better contest radio.
> But alas all I hear is it's on the list.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> A friend of mine has a flex and can vary his transmitter BW
> we ran some tests
> and as I told Dick,, if ur gonna chase DX as you narrow your
> signal to 2 K or so with the same mike gain etc really gives you punch
> with better average power but no increase in distortion,, well not much
> observing it on the P3
> taking it much less than that does cause distortion bad sounding audio
> but if you know any folk with a flex get them to do the same test
> interesting to observe on the P3
> Dick still likes to use ESSB but not when 75 is very active
>
> long thread fer sure
>
> HAR
>
> Bob K3DJC
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Is-there-a-reason-the-receive-is-so-Skinny-tp7587977p7588018.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Phil Kane-2

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

On 4/27/2014 3:44 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

> RTTY is an old outdated digital mode and severs only one thing these days.
> Contesting.

Folks say the same thing about CW. But if it's not broke, don't fix it.
That's what ham radio is all about.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane (same call since 1952)
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Gary Gregory-2

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

The original post mentioned play back of recorded audio.

Now thats about as difficult to get right as i can think of.

I am not going to preach but, the effort is not worth it as the audio
cannot be duplicated perfectly. Pretty much a waste of time when you
consider setting up the receive and transnitter to be flat then hope the
station you are intending to listen has figured out how to setup his rcvr.

Easier to snip of a P3.....grin

In VK we sadly have a huge number of pretty ordinary sounding stations. My
fix for that problem is to move frequency.

Gary

Gary
Vk1ZZ
K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3.
On 28/04/2014 10:26 AM, "Phil Kane" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/27/2014 3:44 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>
> > RTTY is an old outdated digital mode and severs only one thing these
> days.
> > Contesting.
>
> Folks say the same thing about CW. But if it's not broke, don't fix it.
> That's what ham radio is all about.
> --
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane (same call since 1952)
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

KV5J

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Joe,

You of all people should know it's not the same as actually narrowing the IF.
You should try both and compare.

Keith

If you use K9YC's suggested EQ you will be very close to 2.3/2.4 KHz
audio - particularly if 400 and 3200 are set to -16 dB. Try it ...

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/27/2014 7:41 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

>
> I've been asking for the ability to narrow the transmit bandwidth on the K3
> for years. That would make a better contest radio.
> But alas all I hear is it's on the list.
>
> Keith

Wes (N7WS)

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

So what digital mode do you think is "best"?

PSK-31 maybe, where the proponents mistakenly believe that you don't need decent
antennas or more than 10W to send brag files that put a normal human being to
sleep?

"Hello my good friend Wes. It is a pleasure to QSO you this first time. My
name is Jose and I was created in December 1960. My dog's name is Poochsito
and my locator is El10jh. The equipment here is an Elecraft K3-10 with the
built-in tuner and the 8-pole 2.8 KHz filter, running 8.65 W to a wet noodle
antenna up 6.5 meters and fed with 30.33 meters of RG8X. Computer is a
10GHz 8-core POS with 32Gb ram running a patched version of Cobal...
Interface is an ABC Technology Turbo 29 with the Gigabyte accelerator chip.
Audio is fed to the Turbo 29 via Monster Cable SuperFlex HCOF with
gold-plated connectors. Ham Radio Deluxe is used because it is way too
complicated for the average ham and makes we holier-than-thou operators feel
superior. Well OM... was my pleasure to QSO you. I QSL100 percent via eQSL
after receipt of $10 US via Paypal. I wish you good health and happiness in
2014 and want to take this opportunity to wish you and your family a
wonderful Christmas and a Happy 2015. 73s AR N7WS de XE3BS SK SK SK... QSO
No 456 logged 04/27/2014 0222Z."

That digital mode?

On 4/27/2014 4:02 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> Only because of the need for speed not because it's the best digital mode.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>

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KV5J

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

You know how to bait a guy. But there is more info in the made up QSO than
there is in the Elecraft SSB net for the whole 2014. Just saying.....

Keith

PSK-31 maybe, where the proponents mistakenly believe that you don't need decent
antennas or more than 10W to send brag files that put a normal human being to
sleep?

"Hello my good friend Wes. It is a pleasure to QSO you this first time. My
name is Jose and I was created in December 1960. My dog's name is Poochsito
and my locator is El10jh. The equipment here is an Elecraft K3-10 with the
built-in tuner and the 8-pole 2.8 KHz filter, running 8.65 W to a wet noodle
antenna up 6.5 meters and fed with 30.33 meters of RG8X. Computer is a
10GHz 8-core POS with 32Gb ram running a patched version of Cobal...
Interface is an ABC Technology Turbo 29 with the Gigabyte accelerator chip.
Audio is fed to the Turbo 29 via Monster Cable SuperFlex HCOF with
gold-plated connectors. Ham Radio Deluxe is used because it is way too
complicated for the average ham and makes we holier-than-thou operators feel
superior. Well OM... was my pleasure to QSO you. I QSL100 percent via eQSL
after receipt of $10 US via Paypal. I wish you good health and happiness in
2014 and want to take this opportunity to wish you and your family a
wonderful Christmas and a Happy 2015. 73s AR N7WS de XE3BS SK SK SK... QSO
No 456 logged 04/27/2014 0222Z."

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

Cutting the bandwidth of the audio going into the modulator is
indistinguishable from narrowing the bandwidth after the modulator.
If you don't believe that run a 1/3 octave EQ (so you have finer
control) between the mic and the input of the K3.

Of course, you can always install an INRAD 2.1 KHz filter in the
K3 and tell the rig it is a 2.7 KHz filter ... that should give
you a tight 400-2600 Hz response.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/27/2014 10:07 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

>
> Joe,
>
> You of all people should know it's not the same as actually narrowing the
> IF.
> You should try both and compare.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> If you use K9YC's suggested EQ you will be very close to 2.3/2.4 KHz
> audio - particularly if 400 and 3200 are set to -16 dB. Try it ...
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 4/27/2014 7:41 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>
>>
>> I've been asking for the ability to narrow the transmit bandwidth on the
>> K3
>> for years. That would make a better contest radio.
>> But alas all I hear is it's on the list.
>>
>> Keith
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Is-there-a-reason-the-receive-is-so-Skinny-tp7587977p7588036.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Phil Wheeler-2

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by Wes (N7WS)

I've seen far more boring ones, Wes. At least this
guy has a dog and knows Cobal ... and has an
admirable profit motive :-)

73, Phil

On 4/27/14, 7:43 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:

> So what digital mode do you think is "best"?
>
> PSK-31 maybe, where the proponents mistakenly
> believe that you don't need decent antennas or
> more than 10W to send brag files that put a
> normal human being to sleep?
>
> "Hello my good friend Wes. It is a pleasure
> to QSO you this first time. My
> name is Jose and I was created in December
> 1960. My dog's name is Poochsito
> and my locator is El10jh. The equipment here
> is an Elecraft K3-10 with the
> built-in tuner and the 8-pole 2.8 KHz filter,
> running 8.65 W to a wet noodle
> antenna up 6.5 meters and fed with 30.33
> meters of RG8X. Computer is a
> 10GHz 8-core POS with 32Gb ram running a
> patched version of Cobal...
> Interface is an ABC Technology Turbo 29 with
> the Gigabyte accelerator chip. Audio is fed
> to the Turbo 29 via Monster Cable SuperFlex HCOF
> with
> gold-plated connectors. Ham Radio Deluxe is
> used because it is way too
> complicated for the average ham and makes we
> holier-than-thou operators feel
> superior. Well OM... was my pleasure to QSO
> you. I QSL100 percent via eQSL
> after receipt of $10 US via Paypal. I wish
> you good health and happiness in
> 2014 and want to take this opportunity to
> wish you and your family a
> wonderful Christmas and a Happy 2015. 73s AR
> N7WS de XE3BS SK SK SK... QSO
> No 456 logged 04/27/2014 0222Z."
>
>
> That digital mode?
>
>
>
> On 4/27/2014 4:02 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>> Only because of the need for speed not because
>> it's the best digital mode.
>>
>> Keith

Wes (N7WS)

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

In reply to this post by KV5J

Of course it is.

If you would understand that SSB is simply audio mixed up to R-F, you would not
have this mistaken idea. We normally do it in two steps, audio to I-F, I-F to
R-F, but that's all it is, a frequency conversion.

Certainly, if you take a 2 KHz band of audio frequencies and run the result of
the first frequency conversion through a 1 KHz filter, you will band limit the
result. However, if you run the same product through a 10 KHz IF filter, you
will still get a 2 KHz wide result. The wide filter isn't going to magically
widen the transmitted signal.

Wes N7WS

On 4/27/2014 7:07 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> Joe,
>
> You of all people should know it's not the same as actually narrowing the
> IF.
> You should try both and compare.
>
> Keith
>
>

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KV5J

Re: Is there a reason the receive is so Skinny

If you understood that if you have 3.0 kHz of IF and clip off some of the lows and some of the highs from the audio. It's not the same as only having 2.3 kHz of IF.

Keith